Which plane is a better fit??? (Toga vs A36)

Joshua D Jones

Joshua D Jones

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Josh
Hello.

Have been researching for several months now and my father and I have narrowed down our decision to buy a 1998+ Saratoga II HP or a mid 1990's+ Bonanza A36. Would love to hear opinions from the forum on which plane is the better fit based on the following mission/usage criteria:

Plane will be based in south Florida (so I want A/C) where I live full time. My parents spend the winters and come down randomly the rest of the year. Part of the mission will be to fly up to BNA and spend time up there and then haul them back down. I have 3 kids (12,9,3) and I'm 6'2" and in the 240lbs range. Most of the flying would be with 3 or less people in it. Mainly me and my father (6'3" 220lbs) and/or me and my youngest sons. Typical mission will be fun stuff flying around FL and the SE. But 2-4 times per year I will need to load up my whole family of 5 and fly up to TN or somewhere similar to visit family (likely making a bathroom/leg stretch stop halfway in GA). Would also love to be able to take 4-6 adults on 1-1.5 hr flights to the Keys/KMIA/KTPA etc for dinner/sightseeing flights.

Budget is around the $400-500k price point. I'm waiting to hear back on insurance quotes (I'm a 12,000 hr ATP rated airline pilot and my father has about 500 hrs but neither of us have time in a Saratoga or A36). We are in line (along with a ton of other people) for a T-hangar, but until that happens it's likely the plane will have to sit outside on the ramp NOV-MAR but will be temporarily under the shade hangar of a seasonal tenet that can sublease their spot to us when they go back north from APR-OCT. I'm aware of the operating expenses (we used to own a 77 Turbo Arrow III) and what to expect there although, are you every truly prepared for the crazy expenses of airplane ownership??

The biggest issue right now we are trying to decide on is the cockpit/cabin size and useful load envelope for the times that I do carry my whole family and the times that my father and I decide to take a long trip and go explore. We checked out a nice A36 yesterday, but as is well known it's not exactly what I'd call roomy. You can tell the fit/finish and just overall quality of the plane is much better than the Toga II, but is being in a smaller/snugger plane going to be a big regret after we buy it? I haven't flown either plane but I know the Bo is a much nicer flying plane and the Toga is more heavy and truck-like. But let's be honest, 90+% of the time the AP will be flying anyways.

So having said all of that, I'd love to hear from others who have gone down this road and have had similar experience's based on our anticipated mission profile with either/both planes.

Thanks!
 
Lances are the best. I'm not biased.

:cool:

Useful load on the Togas is pretty lacking. I have over 1400 in the Lance and should pick up some more after my next round of avionics. I've seen some Togas down in the 1000 useful range. My old Archer nearly had 1000. Sheesh.
 
Joshua D Jones said:
We checked out a nice A36 yesterday, but as is well known it's not exactly what I'd call roomy. You can tell the fit/finish and just overall quality of the plane is much better than the Toga II, but is being in a smaller/snugger plane going to be a big regret after we buy it? I haven't flown either plane but I know the Bo is a much nicer flying plane and the Toga is more heavy and truck-like. But let's be honest, 90+% of the time the AP will be flying anyways.
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Josh,

I was in a very similar situation ten years ago - get a plane large enough for trips with the wife and three kids. Up to that time, I had been in a partnership sharing a Piper Arrow, so we never had a way to use the plane for traveling with the whole family. I fell in love with the Bonanza after flying it once.

You bring up a few good considerations in your post. The Piper will indeed be roomier, especially for baggage. When the five of us traveled together on long trips, we usually shipped a suitcase of two ahead with FedEx. The Bonanza feels sturdier and generally of higher build quality. By all means, fly both airplanes before you make a decision. The Bonanza is a joy to hand-fly; the Piper is ... well, it's a Piper.

A few other things which you have not mentioned: The Bonanza will fly faster on less fuel burn. There is also wider support for aftermarket modifications available if you worry about adding things later (e.g. FIKI, tip tanks, turbo, A/C - all of that can be added later). There is also a phenomenal owner community amongst Beech owners/pilots which you will not find in the Piper world, things like ABS (type club), BeechTalk and just the pride of ownership and willingness to help other Beech owners.

Finally, if the vast majority of your flying is with just 2 or 3 people as you wrote, I would be careful about optimizing the aircraft for the very few trips with a full cabin. By the time your 3-year-old is big enough to be a factor for cabin size and payload, your now 12-year-old will probably be in college and not be traveling with you as often anymore.

I've been very happy with the A36 and never regretted my choice. It's not perfect, but it's the best compromise for me in terms of speed, payload, roominess, aesthetics, and handling characteristic. It was a tight fit on a handful of flights we've made over the years, while being larger than necessary on most flights. It has always worked for us, while sometimes requiring that we ship stuff ahead.

Again, by all means fly both airplanes before you decide. In fact, fly more than one of each. Talk to owners. Hear their stories. Then decide.

To find Bonanzas in your area to test-fly, sign up on BeechTalk and then go to their mentor program:
https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/mentor.php

Best of luck for finding the best ride for you and your family!

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
Josh,

I was in a very similar situation ten years ago - get a plane large enough for trips with the wife and three kids. Up to that time, I had been in a partnership sharing a Piper Arrow, so we never had a way to use the plane for traveling with the whole family. I fell in love with the Bonanza after flying it once.

You bring up a few good considerations in your post. The Piper will indeed be roomier, especially for baggage. When the five of us traveled together on long trips, we usually shipped a suitcase of two ahead with FedEx. The Bonanza feels sturdier and generally of higher build quality. By all means, fly both airplanes before you make a decision. The Bonanza is a joy to hand-fly; the Piper is ... well, it's a Piper.

A few other things which you have not mentioned: The Bonanza will fly faster on less fuel burn. There is also wider support for aftermarket modifications available if you worry about adding things later (e.g. FIKI, tip tanks, turbo, A/C - all of that can be added later). There is also a phenomenal owner community amongst Beech owners/pilots which you will not find in the Piper world, things like ABS (type club), BeechTalk and just the pride of ownership and willingness to help other Beech owners.

Finally, if the vast majority of your flying is with just 2 or 3 people as you wrote, I would be careful about optimizing the aircraft for the very few trips with a full cabin. By the time your 3-year-old is big enough to be a factor for cabin size and payload, your now 12-year-old will probably be in college and not be traveling with you as often anymore.

I've been very happy with the A36 and never regretted my choice. It's not perfect, but it's the best compromise for me in terms of speed, payload, roominess, aesthetics, and handling characteristic. It was a tight fit on a handful of flights we've made over the years, while being larger than necessary on most flights. It has always worked for us, while sometimes requiring that we ship stuff ahead.

Again, by all means fly both airplanes before you decide. In fact, fly more than one of each. Talk to owners. Hear their stories. Then decide.

To find Bonanzas in your area to test-fly, sign up on BeechTalk and then go to their mentor program:
https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/mentor.php

Best of luck for finding the best ride for you and your family!

- Martin
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Wow - talk about a "Go **** Yourself" post. Thanks, Martin.
 
Martin Pauly said:
which you will not find in the Piper world
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This is probably less true these days. The PA32 community on Facebook is pretty amazing. I bet if I posted on there that I was AOG in Knoxville, TN or some such I would have someone willing to come get me in 15 minutes. That group of people is pretty amazing.

I too was deciding between A36s and PA32s. I just happened to go the other route. Johnson bar flaps for the win! ;)
 
My club has both a Saratoga and an A36. My family is similar to yours, three young kids. For what it’s worth, my wife will pick the Bonanza every time. She would rather get there faster and deal with the smaller cabin than take the speed hit of the Saratoga.

An additional factor is that ours is an early 80s model A36 with a bunch of the D’Shannon mods, so it’s got an insane useful load.
 
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Is the Bo really THAT much faster? I always thought it was only 10-15 knots faster. Which is what 30 minutes on a 1000nm trip? Now I know speed is a manly obsession, but size matters too.
 
Racerx said:
Is the Bo really THAT much faster? I always thought it was only 10-15 knots faster. Which is what 30 minutes on a 1000nm trip? Now I know speed is a manly obsession, but size matters too.
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10-15 knots is about right. If you’re flying into a headwind, though, that 30 minutes can get stretched because the slower plane is spending more time in the headwind.

Also, the Bonanza has the D’Shannon tips so it can skip the fuel stop on that 1000 nm trip if the passengers are so inclined, which mine are.

Also, my wife said to say that if you’re the one in the back with the kids 30 minutes is a looong time.
 
Martin Pauly said:
Yes, with STCs available to bump that up to as high as 4000 lbs.

- Martin
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This is what puzzles me. They are both 3600 lb planes but the PA32 is known as the hauler. What's your useful? Is it less than 1400? If so, you're heavier empty than I am but fly faster. I guess that just tells us how different the drag is between the two.

I do love my shoulder room.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
This is what puzzles me. They are both 3600 lb planes but the PA32 is known as the hauler. What's your useful? Is it less than 1400?
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My useful load is 1343 lbs; that's after a 100lbs max gross weight increase (via STC). Which translates to 900 lbs payload with full fuel.

Basic empty weight has changed quite a bit over time, as aircraft were built with nicer interior and better equipment. I believe you will find more variation between old and new airframes than you'll find between an A36 and a PA32.

- Martin
 
I've been pondering this. I own a Lance and love it. I've never flown an A36, but I've sat in one, and they're tiny in comparison. Felt very much like the archer I trained in. Part of it is I'm 6'4", 265, so the width of the pa32 makes a big difference for me. Only you can make that call.

Honestly, if I had that kind of scratch to dump into an airplane, I wouldn't buy either. I'd likely have a Cessna 414 or an Aerostar. Especially if I had the hours and ratings you do. Maybe a PA-46 of some flavor. C340.... with that budget there's lots of options. Obviously the opex of a twin is much more, but taking half of your purchase budget would run it for years.
 
Rgbeard said:
Wow - talk about a "Go **** Yourself" post. Thanks, Martin.
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I'll take your Lance (and Pilawt's Six) (Edit - Jim's too... :D) off your hands cheap now that you read that and obviously don't want them any more :D Pipers... pft... that owner community is chock full of deadbeats...
 
Martin Pauly said:
My useful load is 1343 lbs; that's after a 100lbs max gross weight increase (via STC). Which translates to 900 lbs payload with full fuel.

Basic empty weight has changed quite a bit over time, as aircraft were built with nicer interior and better equipment. I believe you will find more variation between old and new airframes than you'll find between an A36 and a PA32.

- Martin
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My 182 is 1323... I just run out of room to put the weight lol
 
Anyone mentioned you’re gonna need a PC6? maybe even a PC12?
 
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Also be aware that this area is a real issue in the PA-32s. That pilot in the ad must be on the shorter side of average. The OP, at 6'2" like me, will very likely have the front seat all the way back - which causes the seat back to push on the middle row seat back, folding it over. Which makes the middle row unusable if there are tall-ish people in the front seats.

upload_2022-1-18_19-56-4.png
 
I'm the freak in the PoA group who is not obsessed with the Bonanza. I get it, they fly nice, all Beech do.. maybe there's been too much hype out there but it's just not something I've sat in and said 'holy crap I love it'.. I felt the opposite, I wondered..

(a) why does it sit so nose high and tail low?

(b) it's not nearly as fast as I was expecting it to be..

(c) it flies okay, but it's more like a well rigged 182 then a finger tip responsive Tiger/Mooney or heavy go anywhere tank like any Piper

(d) I like a Johnson bar and thought the arrangement of the flap/gear is dumb

(e) earlier models I absolutely abhor the stupid yoke bar - what a disgraceful design

(f) why is the cabin taller than it is wide?

(g) how come if someone gets in the back first it's going to fall on its a$$.. I had to legit hang off the prop for my buddy to get in the back until someone else could stand on the wing

(h) why does everyone love this so much?

(i) what's with the stupid tiny trim wheel that is not ergonomic or easy to use

(j) why is the fuel selector in a spot where it's nearly impossible to reach, and with a moron design that can fool someone into switching it to 'off' instead of left or right

(k) why does the epitome of luxury aviation travel have vaporlock/cavitation issues with the fuel system

(l) why does it have six seats if
--(a) the useful loads precludes actually putting six in it
--(b) the back seat is too tiny to feasibly use
--(c) the CG goes out of whack

(m) why is the panel segmented into goofy hodg-podge quadrants on wiggling shock mounts?

(n) what's the point of the single-person arm rest between the seats?

(o) people say 'it's well built!' but what is that based on?
--you hear of Pipers getting abused and the living daylights beat out of them flying all sorts of austere missions, flight school work horses, etc., on the flip side, you've got Bonanzas living pampered lives, mostly in hangars.. yet which one got the reputation of falling apart in the air?? Sure, 'but they flew it out of the envelope!' - still, the reputation was earned, and there are types out there that have never had an inflight breakup, or have had extremely few events. The ER crash gave one model of Piper a bad rap, but I've never sat in a Piper product and felt 'man, this feels like crap construction'! It's simple construction, sure, but that's good with aviation, isn't it?


As far as overall "lux" feel.. you get in a Piper, fine, maybe the fit and finish is a little lacking, but it's like getting in a Chevy Suburban after you just sat in a road trip trapped in the third row of a BMW X5. I'll take the G*dd@mn suburban every single day



-my vote would be Piper.. (obviously) or what about a 210..? The 210 is fast, capable.. and at least according to one AOPA article beats the pants off a Bonanza every day of the week in just about every competition. I hate high wings, but the 210 gets an exception

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/december/pilot/fly-off-bonanza-vs-centurion
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
This is what puzzles me. They are both 3600 lb planes but the PA32 is known as the hauler. What's your useful? Is it less than 1400? If so, you're heavier empty than I am but fly faster. I guess that just tells us how different the drag is between the two.

I do love my shoulder room.
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It's a hauler because it can actually fit that baby grand piano
 
RussR said:
Which makes the middle row unusable
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it's too bad club seating became a thing.. no one wants to sit backwards, and yes, it makes that row unusable.. most people I know who fly 6 place club seating planes with usually 2-3 people have the third person all the way in the back, third row
 
bluesky74656 said:
10-15 knots is about right. If you’re flying into a headwind, though, that 30 minutes can get stretched because the slower plane is spending more time in the headwind.

Also, the Bonanza has the D’Shannon tips so it can skip the fuel stop on that 1000 nm trip if the passengers are so inclined, which mine are.

Also, my wife said to say that if you’re the one in the back with the kids 30 minutes is a looong time.
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Sure you can skip the fuel stop, what about the bathroom stop? I'd rather not hold it for 6 hours. And I don't want to make someone else uncomfortable by telling them to hold it.
 
Tantalum said:
no one wants to sit backwards
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I don't know, I've flown quite a few planes that have that have club seating, from PA-32 to PA-46, TBM, Cessna 340 and 421s, and some jets, and never remember hearing any argument over who's going to end up with the middle seat. I rode in one once myself, no big deal. People do it all the time on subways and trains.
 
Racerx said:
Sure you can skip the fuel stop, what about the bathroom stop? I'd rather not hold it for 6 hours. And I don't want to make someone else uncomfortable by telling them to hold it.
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We’re all family. We bring collection devices and soldier on.

I used to plan breaks, but every time as we approached it I’d ask if anyone needed the stop no one ever wanted to stop, so eventually I just quit planning the stops.
 
Pilawt said:
1978 PA-32-300, 3400 lb MGW, 1311 lb useful load, fixed gear, 145-150 KTAS, 100 pounds of teenagers' luggage behind the rear seats, wide CG range ...

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Teenagers… I hope by the time I have those I can afford something with a divider!
 
Tantalum said:
it's too bad club seating became a thing.. no one wants to sit backwards, and yes, it makes that row unusable.. most people I know who fly 6 place club seating planes with usually 2-3 people have the third person all the way in the back, third row
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To be fair, forward seating isn't that much better. There's not much legroom in my second row. About the same as the back seat of a PA28. If I'm flying with 3-4 I'll usually take the center seats out. It's a lot easier to get in back there too.

@Martin Pauly how hard is it to remove the seats in the A36? One of the features I love about my plane is the ease with which I can pop seats in & out to make it a big 4 place or a 2 place with room to camp in the back.
 
bluesky74656 said:
We’re all family. We bring collection devices and soldier on.

I used to plan breaks, but every time as we approached it I’d ask if anyone needed the stop no one ever wanted to stop, so eventually I just quit planning the stops.
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Your family is a lot closer than mine.
 
Jim K said:
@Martin Pauly how hard is it to remove the seats in the A36? One of the features I love about my plane is the ease with which I can pop seats in & out to make it a big 4 place or a 2 place with room to camp in the back.
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It takes about five minutes to take all four seats out or put them back in. Easy to do; no tools needed.

- Martin
 
@Joshua D Jones given your flying experience and budget - why not a twin bonanza, cessna 3xx or whatever twin's piper offers?
 
Sinistar said:
@Joshua D Jones given your flying experience and budget - why not a twin bonanza, cessna 3xx or whatever twin's piper offers?
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A twin would indeed improve useful load and performance at those high weights significantly, and typically also offer more storage for baggage.

The downside, beyond the necessary ongoing training commitment (probably not an issue for Josh since he's an airline pilot) is: now you are dealing with the expense of flying and maintaining a twin year-round for the 3 or 4 flights a year where it really makes a difference.

I'm not saying it's a bad choice; I'm saying be realistic about the total cost of ownership. If the costs were the same, I bet many of us would have a twin in our hangars instead of the single we fly. (I know I would!)

- Martin
 
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