Which is harder to land? Tailwheel or Glider

Aceman

Aceman

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Aceman
I have been training for 11 days now in the glider and have never had tailwheel experience. It is quite difficult to land and bring a glider to a stop as it only has 1 wheel in the CG and a forward wheel in the front (which keeps the nose from scraping the ground). While nose overs are impossible on a glider, they are privy to ground loops and also keeping the plane straight without the wings going back and forth banging the ground and creating oscillations due to the single wheel.

Is a tailwheel still harder to land due to the big risk of braking too much and causing the nose to push over? That's the only thing I can think of that would make it more dangerous than a glider.

Thoughts?
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, I found gliders very easy to land.

Tailwheel is much harder, IMO.
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Depends where you start. I learned in a Cub. I was at the glider field on a day that there was a X-wind across the RW. I watched a pilot land and while rolling out, the wind shifted, got behind him and ever so slowly, nosed him over on his back. We rushed over and flipped him right side up. No one could find any damage at all. Fast fwd some years and I watched a high time military pilot wheel land a J-3 same X-wind. It also shifted. He did a nose over in slo-mo. He was put back on his "feet" and there was minor damage to a few wing ribs & fabric.
They all fly the same.
 
They require different skills is all. I fly helicopters, tailwheel and am learning to fly gliders. Energy management is the most challenging thing about flying gliders. Learning to land takes more time because go-arounds and touch and goes are not "allowed."
 
There is such a wide set of variables that your question could be answered simply as "yes." A good instructor, a difficult student, an older glider, a more modern tailwheel with fat tires - any number of combinations could produce a different answer. Generally speaking, I think that the tailwheel is slightly harder, but YMMV.
 
The toughest part for many to learn about gliders is knowing where your tips are. Hint, sit up straight, the tips are the extension of your shoulders. If you are not straight, your wing tips are about to touch the ground. Touching the ground contributes to what you referred to as a ground loop. Keeping the tips off the ground during takeoff is CRITITCAL. Keeping them off the ground on landing until you run out of aileron control is best. If the tip goes down, during takeoff, pull the release; during landing, get on the brake.

Not all gliders have a wheel up front, some have skids, some have nothing. If nothing, then the tail stays on the ground after coming to a complete stop.
 
BillTIZ said:
The toughest part for many to learn about gliders is knowing where your tips are. Hint, sit up straight, the tips are the extension of your shoulders. If you are not straight, your wing tips are about to touch the ground. Touching the ground contributes to what you referred to as a ground loop. Keeping the tips off the ground during takeoff is CRITITCAL. Keeping them off the ground on landing until you run out of aileron control is best. If the tip goes down, during takeoff, pull the release; during landing, get on the brake.

Not all gliders have a wheel up front, some have skids, some have nothing. If nothing, then the tail stays on the ground after coming to a complete stop.
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It depends on tow hook position. The typical aero tow hook position you can take off without a wing runner at all.

But the more aft, ground tow, hook location, tip touches IMMEDIATELY pull the release. It can get ugly.

But with spoilers, to ME, gliders are about the easiest to land, especially for spot landings. :)
 
How about tailwheel gliders?
 
I have no glider experience beyond a power loss within very easy reach of a runway. I would have to look to know for sure, but I think my number of tailwheel landings is approaching 2,000. I don’t really understand why tailwheel flying is considered black magic. In fact, I’ve been told by an instructor that if you have never flown at all, you will solo in about the same amount of time in a tailwheel airplane as you would in a tricycle. I had about 7 hours tailwheel before going to a 150 to finish my private. Then, life caught up with me and I didn’t fly at all for several years. I then bought the 140 and it took a while to get the hang of it, but once I solo’d there was no magic involved And no looking back.

As far as nosing over a tailwheel plane, I don’t really understand why that happens to people. I have had the tail come up a few times trying to make a cutoff. You simply back off the brakes and the tail comes down. You miss the turn off, but so what? Maybe if you fly extremely short fields it’s more of a problem. That shouldn’t be a problem very often, given that most tailwheel planes can be landed really short.
 
I don't think either one is necessarily "harder", but that also depends on the crosswind component. I think that the tailwheel aircraft is easier to ground loop in that situation, which is why it requires a specific endorsement.
 
If an endorsement indicates it to be more difficult, then the glider would be more difficult. It requires a completely different checkride and written. Not just an instructor signing it off.
 
MBDiagMan said:
If an endorsement indicates it to be more difficult, then the glider would be more difficult. It requires a completely different checkride and written. Not just an instructor signing it off.
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It's a different category, which always requires a check ride and a rating. You can already have an airplane category (and class) rating but it still requires an endorsement for tailwheel.
 
That’s my point. Don’t you think that a different category makes it a more different skill than a simple endorsement?
 
IMO, there’s nothing particularly difficult about landing a glider other than energy management.
 
MBDiagMan said:
That’s my point. Don’t you think that a different category makes it a more different skill than a simple endorsement?
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No, these are separate entities. Glider and Airplane are different categories requiring a whole subset of different knowledge and skills, and requiring separate ratings under those circumstances makes sense. Notice that the requirements for a glider rating are considerably less than for an airplane, suggesting certainly that the airplane rating is harder. But we're talking about one component common to both categories, i.e. "landing", and I maintain both are about the same except tailwheel has a higher level of difficulty.

There was no tailwheel endorsement needed with an Airplane category rating until 1991, then the endorsement was added based on accident data. A glider rating also has endorsements - aero tow, ground tow and self-launch.
 
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dbahn said:
There was no tailwheel endorsement needed with an Airplane category rating until 1991, then the endorsement was added based on accident data. A glider rating also has endorsements - aero tow, ground tow and self-launch.
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If there is no tailwheel endorsement for gliders, and there are tailwheel gliders, that is a hint that someone in the FAA thinks that gliders are harder to land than tailwheel airplanes: Being allowed to fly a glider automatically comes with being allowed to fly tailwheel gliders. Being allowed to fly tailwheel airplanes does not automatically come with being allowed to fly any gliders.
 
iamtheari said:
If there is no tailwheel endorsement for gliders, and there are tailwheel gliders, that is a hint that someone in the FAA thinks that gliders are harder to land than tailwheel airplanes: Being allowed to fly a glider automatically comes with being allowed to fly tailwheel gliders. Being allowed to fly tailwheel airplanes does not automatically come with being allowed to fly any gliders.
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I don't think so. A ground loop in a glider isn't going to be nearly as bad since it's center of gravity is so much lower than a high wing tail dragger's is.
 
Salty said:
I don't think so. A ground loop in a glider isn't going to be nearly as bad since its center of gravity is so much lower than a high wing tail dragger's is.
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How does that relate to the required and available ratings and endorsements between the two categories?
 
iamtheari said:
How does that relate to the required and available ratings and endorsements between the two categories?
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I disagree with your assertion that gliders are harder because an endorsement isn't necessary for glider tailwheel. I don't believe the dangers are equivalent, therefore the need for an endorsement isn't there.
 
Salty said:
I don't think so. A ground loop in a glider isn't going to be nearly as bad since it's center of gravity is so much lower than a high wing tail dragger's is.
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And the glider's wingtip is expected to touch the ground.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I have no glider experience beyond a power loss within very easy reach of a runway. I would have to look to know for sure, but I think my number of tailwheel landings is approaching 2,000. I don’t really understand why tailwheel flying is considered black magic. In fact, I’ve been told by an instructor that if you have never flown at all, you will solo in about the same amount of time in a tailwheel airplane as you would in a tricycle.
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Why are you insisting on destroying the mysterious truth that tailwheel pilots are gods from another species of human & that only those blessed with certain physical and cognitive skills, far above the average human, can possibly grasp enough of the learning needed to be a tailwheel pilot?

Pretty soon everyone will be convinced that you are correct and I'll have to adjust my swagger or remove some of my epaulets ... ;)
 
I don't think the requirement for tailwheel endorsement came about due to safety issues. But rather at the insistence of insurance companies due to the cost of repairs after groundloop. A 170 flies just exactly the same as a 172, but it requires one to pay closer attention on landing.
 
bluerooster said:
I don't think the requirement for tailwheel endorsement came about due to safety issues. But rather at the insistence of insurance companies due to the cost of repairs after groundloop.
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I would consider those to be the same. Just because no one was killed or injured doesn't mean it isn't an accident, and it doesn't exclude it from being a safety issue. The FAA reacts to data, and accidents are high on their list of concerns, regardless of carnage.
 
Salty said:
I disagree with your assertion that gliders are harder because an endorsement isn't necessary for glider tailwheel. I don't believe the dangers are equivalent, therefore the need for an endorsement isn't there.
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I disagree with your implication that I made any such assertion. I don’t have any glider PIC time and my tailwheel hours are limited to about a half dozen types, mostly high wing, so I am not qualified to express an opinion on what is more difficult (or the related but distinct question of what is more dangerous) to land. I was only commenting on one possible hint about the matter as expressed by the FAA through the regulatory process.
 
Never seen a glider ground looped.
 
dbahn said:
No, these are separate entities. Glider and Airplane are different categories requiring a whole subset of different knowledge and skills, and requiring separate ratings under those circumstances makes sense. Notice that the requirements for a glider rating are considerably less than for an airplane, suggesting certainly that the airplane rating is harder. But we're talking about one component common to both categories, i.e. "landing", and I maintain both are about the same except tailwheel has a higher level of difficulty.

There was no tailwheel endorsement needed with an Airplane category rating until 1991, then the endorsement was added based on accident data. A glider rating also has endorsements - aero tow, ground tow and self-launch.
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You, have quite a skill for using about 60 or 80 words for saying the same thing that I said with about a dozen. Have you ever found yourself arguing with a fence post? Geesh!
 
Daleandee said:
Why are you insisting on destroying the mysterious truth that tailwheel pilots are gods from another species of human & that only those blessed with certain physical and cognitive skills, far above the average human, can possibly grasp enough of the learning needed to be a tailwheel pilot?

Pretty soon everyone will be convinced that you are correct and I'll have to adjust my swagger or remove some of my epaulets ... ;)
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LOL! I hate to be the one to cost you a stripe on your epaulet, but I’m afraid that if a dummy like me can fly tailwheel with no history of a ground loop, you need to get out the scissors and also relax your walk.:)
 
MBDiagMan said:
You, have quite a skill for using about 60 or 80 words for saying the same thing that I said with about a dozen. Have you ever found yourself arguing with a fence post? Geesh!
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Sorry about that. It just seemed to me that you were comparing an endorsement to a rating and making broad assumptions about the difficulty of landing based on completely different skill sets. I apologize for the word count, which I didn't perform so thank you for doing that part.

And this is the first time in a long time that I've found myself arguing with fencepost. :)
 
If you want to convince yourself taildraggers are easier, land an RV with no crosswind on a grass field. You might not even need to wake up. If you want to convince yourself taildraggers are harder, land a Pitts with a 10kt crosswind on a hard surface. Make sure your insurance is up to date. There are many flavors of airplanes and pilots adapt differently. There are few absolutes.

Nauga,
the dancing fool
 
ebetancourt said:
They require different skills is all. I fly helicopters, tailwheel and am learning to fly gliders. Energy management is the most challenging thing about flying gliders. Learning to land takes more time because go-arounds and touch and goes are not "allowed."
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That's my thoughts as well. It's all or nothing and you have to keep flying it even when it's on the ground to prevent ground loops.
 
Oh boy! Did I open a can of worms??

Keep up the comments guys/gals, it's incredibly entertaining!
 
Aceman said:
Oh boy! Did I open a can of worms??
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The cans of worms are self-opening here on POA. :)

In my opinion, based on a measly 350 hours tailwheel time so far in a half dozen types, landing a taildragger is only hard if you have too much tricycle experience before you start learning. I don't have glider time upon which to base an opinion, but my guess is that the following statement is true of both gliders and taildraggers (and maybe even helicopters, flying boats, dirigibles, and fighter jets): There are some widowmakers in the bunch but the basic skillset is not hard to learn.
 
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