Where would you land?

hawk25u

hawk25u

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jim
A few years back when I was getting a checkride for SES the examiner asked "If you are over the forest with no lakes or clear ground around and only trees would you try to 'land' in hardwood or evergreen trees?" I answered evergreen and he didn't answer. What would you think?
 
Depends on the time of year, how much rainfall that season, the quality of the soil, and my overall value of my own life at the time.
So many factors to take into consideration.

Obviously evergreen trees would be more flexible and dissipate energy with less of a sudden thud. They also lack branches that can easily impale humans.
The other plus is they smell good. So weather you make it or not, it's gonna smell like Christmas.
 
Pine trees might be more bendy but they can get pretty tall. Whichever trees look softest and shortest at the time I suppose.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Depends on the time of year, how much rainfall that season, the quality of the soil, and my overall value of my own life at the time.
So many factors to take into consideration.

Obviously evergreen trees would be more flexible and dissipate energy with less of a sudden thud. They also lack branches that can easily impale humans.
The other plus is they smell good. So weather you make it or not, it's gonna smell like Christmas.
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But you fly a Grumman, so all of this is hypothetical.
 
I wonder in how many places you'd have that choice. Aren't dense forests either deciduous or evergreen? I dunno, I grew up on the Plains... trees are where you find water or farmhouses.

The tough choice around here is corn, soybeans or cattle. Hogs are never a good choice, that means you're in Iowa.
 
I kinda like spruce better, but evergreen trees look kinda cozy so probably those!
 
Living in SE Alaska I have that question with every flight. Nothing but trees and water here. Answer, as close to shore as possible without getting wet..:rolleyes:
 
It’s gonna hurt no matter what around here, so plan accordingly and always have a backup plan.
 

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On a serious note, if dense forestry terrain was the only option, I would try to stall the airplane just over the tree tops to ultimately impact the trees with as little energy as possible. Evergreen trees look absorbent, so I could only hope that they are.
 
Hardwood? Evergreen? Damit Jim, I'm a pilot not a tree surgeon. I'd get as slow as I could try to aim for a gap between two sturdy looking trunks taking off the wings and dissipating energy in the process. But that last 60ft drop is going to suck no matter what.
 
If over a Forrest, and my engine quits, and all I have is trees im going to aim for the most dense patch of trees and stall nose high at tree top level into the tops of them and hope for the best. Heck id take trees over water. I imagine a fixed gear will flip as soon as the legs dig in.
 
Hardwood tree canopies may support the plane. Evergreens? Unlikely. Not many get the choice. We have bands of spruce and birch but both are indicative of wetlands so a more open swamp is usually nearby. But I'll take the 6' scrub spruce arounfd the edges rather than the soggy middle. In big evergreens? The thought is to aim between two big trees and try to get the wings to hit both at the same time.
 
WTF! The engine didn't quit! Why would you even think about trees? Just keep cruising to wherever you're going and land safely on a paved runway, one that sells popcorn in the FBO if you're really unfortunate.
 
Ryanb said:
On a serious note, if dense forestry terrain was the only option, I would try to stall the airplane just over the tree tops to ultimately impact the trees with as little energy as possible. Evergreen trees look absorbent, so I could only hope that they are.
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Fortunately I can't speak from experience, but I have been told that you absolutely don't want to do that for two reasons:

1) You may spin in which will likely be worse than going through the trees and dissipating energy more slowly (vs the ground).

2) The human body is much better absorbing energy along the longitudinal axis vs the vertical axis.

Certainly try and crash at MCA and fly through the crash. Hopefully none of us will ever have to test this...
 
Ryanb said:
On a serious note, if dense forestry terrain was the only option, I would try to stall the airplane just over the tree tops to ultimately impact the trees with as little energy as possible. Evergreen trees look absorbent, so I could only hope that they are.
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That’s the same plan as jumping up right before the runaway elevator hits ground level. :)
 
mscard88 said:
WTF! The engine didn't quit! Why would you even think about trees? Just keep cruising to wherever you're going and land safely on a paved runway, one that sells popcorn I the FBO if you're really unfortunate.
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Bad plan. The OP was in a float plane. No mention of amphibs. ;)
 
simtech said:
If over a Forrest, and my engine quits, and all I have is trees im going to aim for the most dense patch of trees and stall nose high at tree top level into the tops of them and hope for the best. Heck id take trees over water. I imagine a fixed gear will flip as soon as the legs dig in.
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Definitely water over trees. The successful egress rate of controlled ditchings is over 95%, fixed gear or not. The key is being under control. After the first tree impact, thats gone.
 
Your DPE was ether
A messing with you
B a idiot
 
Ryanb said:
On a serious note, if dense forestry terrain was the only option, I would try to stall the airplane just over the tree tops to ultimately impact the trees with as little energy as possible. Evergreen trees look absorbent, so I could only hope that they are.
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To quote Bob Hoover: fly as far into the crash as possible.

Also, I've never seen an instance of a hardwood canopy supporting an aircraft. I've seen several instances where a plane crashes through the canopy, maybe breaks a few branches, and then cannot be seen from the air.

There's an old wives tale that the evergreens are softer than the hardwoods and therefor more survivable. I think it's probably horse**** and doesn't make much difference. If I was in an engine-out situation and absolutely could not find a place to land, I'd try to pick a spot where I could fly it as close to the ground as possible before hitting the obstacles, and try to sacrifice the wings to save the fuselage.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Definitely water over trees. The successful egress rate of controlled ditchings is over 95%, fixed gear or not. The key is being under control. After the first tree impact, thats gone.
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That wasn't the question. Being on a SES checkride water would usually be the first choice and if the checkride was successful no ditching would occur. I think we can assume the instructor was making the OP think about his emergency options.
 
If the instructor didn’t answer the question,they’re not being very helpful. I was taught if going into trees try to be near stall keeping the nose up as long as possible.
 
D. Pull the red handle and deploy chute.

But seriously this is a good thread. Enjoyed the discussion.
 
mscard88 said:
WTF! The engine didn't quit! Why would you even think about trees? Just keep cruising to wherever you're going and land safely on a paved runway, one that sells popcorn in the FBO if you're really unfortunate.
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There are FBOs that charge for popcorn?!? This is an outrage. Where is AOPA on this? Definitely don’t land there! Even if the engine is out, pull back to stretch the glide before you pay for FBO popcorn.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
They also lack branches that can easily impale humans.
The other plus is they smell good. So weather you make it or not, it's gonna smell like Christmas.
Click to expand...

Sounds like all you got are Longleaf Pines.

Slash and Loblolly pines can have some mean branches.
 
hawk25u said:
A few years back when I was getting a checkride for SES the examiner asked "If you are over the forest with no lakes or clear ground around and only trees would you try to 'land' in hardwood or evergreen trees?" I answered evergreen and he didn't answer. What would you think?
Click to expand...

Paraglider and hang glider pilots are taught to do a full flare landing in the "fluffiest" looking tree, but both those aircraft can reduce their horizontal rate of travel to almost zero when landing. It works most of the time. Many of us carry a small spool of twine or dental floss so that we can lower it down to a first responder, who ties a climbing rope to it. The pilot then pulls the rope up, ties it into his harness, detaches from the glider, and gets belayed down by the first responders.

Obviously that won't work for an airplane. Probably a better way to word that questions is to ask what kind of a tree you want to crash into first, it's not going be any kind of a landing. If it were me, I'd look for the densest stand of hardwoods I could find, hoping that it would slow the rate of descent as you went crashing through it. Most evergreen trees have brittle branches that shear off easily. Poplars/aspens are also very weak, even though they are deciduous.
 
He did say the engine died wouldn't restart, sorry I forgot to include that. I've thought about it since then and I'd try to find a young growth area (shorter trees and more flex plus you wouldn't be so far above the ground). If there was water around I'd go for it. Remember this was a SES ride.
 
Fly it, at minimum speed, into the tree tops. In a full forest canopy, hitting trunks with the wings is not doable. Don’t stall it in. That’s giving up the last bit of control you have and you don’t want to cartwheel in.

I did my tree canopy crash into pines/softwoods. Everything I’ve observed suggests selecting those over hardwoods. In eastern nth growth forests you’ll generally find the hardwoods in wet drainages and the softwoods on the higher ground perhaps because the softwoods have shallow roots and tend to get blown over in wet ground. Very obvious from the air.

Make sure your belts are tight. Maintain your ELT properly. Assume you won’t be seen or found easily unless you are transmitting location data. I wasn’t but I walked out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
mscard88 said:
No I'm sure it was an amphid! Look, I found a picture of it!

View attachment 67224
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Ok, so knowing nothing about seaplanes I now need to ask a question. I'd been under the impression those were landed in water gear up. So then was this thing landed gear up or down in the water? If up then they dropped the gear after landing and taxied up the boat ramp?
 
Amphibs that land in water gear down usually flip very dramically.
Yes, you land gear up and lower the gear to taxi onto dry ground. On the other hand, you can land a seaplane on a paved runway and it won't flip. It'll cost some bucks to replace the keels but that's pretty minor compared to a crash. In Anchorage late winter you'll see float planes taking off from ice as they head south to spot herring.
 
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