Where is the Missed Approach Point?

[WDD]

Studying for the written. The test prep says the missed for ILS is 4.6 miles from the outer marker, which is at the runway threshold. BUT the dashed line bending up tells me that is the missed point, which is .5 from the runway threshold. What am I missing?

 

[Grum.Man]

Studying for the written. The test prep says the missed for ILS is 4.6 miles from the outer marker, which is at the runway threshold. BUT the dashed line bending up tells me that is the missed point, which is .5 from the runway threshold. What am I missing?

View attachment 92764

It says right there in the airport diagram that the MAP is 4.6 from FAF which is also the OM

 

[dmspilot]

What test prep are you using? I don't recall a question like this being in the FAA test bank. The MAP for an ILS is DA on the glideslope. It'd be different if they specifically asked about the localizer approach.

 

[Blatham489]

I'll take a stab that your takeaway should be that a dashed line doesn't govern, a table or written description does. As an example, on the lateral diagram, the dashed line isn't visible until after the departure end of the runway, but that's not the MAP, clearly. The vertical profile dashed line is more of an indication that at that altitude it's time to go missed.
The Jepp charts give you more info, and I'm learning to like them more and more. Notice it doesn't show an upward curve prior to the MAP, it illustrates clearly where you level off, and where both the visual descent point and the missed approach points are, and then it shows the climb.

 

[WDD]

Didn’t occur to me that the graphic depiction could contradict / not be aligned to the text. Good clarification. Many thanks

 

[midlifeflyer]

What test prep are you using? I don't recall a question like this being in the FAA test bank. The MAP for an ILS is DA on the glideslope. It'd be different if they specifically asked about the localizer approach.

I agree. It's a bad question. The AIM discussion of the missed approach almost suggests the MAP exists independent of DA. And the chart does tell you where the "MAP" is.

Obstacle protection for missed approach is predicated on the missed approach being initiated at the decision altitude/height (DA/DH) or at the missed approach point.​

But OTOH, the regulatory source document for the approach clearly says the ILS MAP is at DA. You'd need to calculate the exact angle to figure out it's lateral location with accuracy.

 

[jordane93]

This is a very bad question.

 

[WDD]

I’m using gold seal / gold method. I understand these are all past instrument written test questions.

 

[mandm]

We were talking about this last night at the club. It was decided that the MAP is not the DA but rather the time from the marker.

FAF to MAP is 4.6NM (FERMO to Missed approach point)
At 90 knots ground speed that’s 3min 4seconds.

 

[Deelee]

It is not a bad question and can be solved using the approach plate -

OM = the FAF (FERMO) per the profile view

Directly above the timings in the lower left corner of the plate it says distance from the FAF to the MAP is 4.6 NM.

answer - 4.6 NM

 

[jordane93]

We were talking about this last night at the club. It was decided that the MAP is not the DA but rather the time from the marker.

FAF to MAP is 4.6NM (FERMO to Missed approach point)
At 90 knots ground speed that’s 3min 4seconds.

It is not a bad question and can be solved using the approach plate -

OM = the FAF (FERMO) per the profile view

Directly above the timings in the lower left corner of the plate it says distance from the FAF to the MAP is 4.6 NM.
answer - 4.6 NM

Timing is irrelevant for the MAP on an ILS. The MAP for a precision approach is the DA.

 

[Rgbeard]

We were talking about this last night at the club. It was decided that the MAP is not the DA but rather the time from the marker.

FAF to MAP is 4.6NM (FERMO to Missed approach point)
At 90 knots ground speed that’s 3min 4seconds.

You need to hang out at a different club.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’m using gold seal / gold method. I understand these are all past instrument written test questions.

Paging @write-stuff ...

 

[texasclouds]

On a precision approach, the MAP is the DA/DH. Anyone who tells you different may possibly be a dog faced pony soldier.

 

[midlifeflyer]

We were talking about this last night at the club. It was decided that the MAP is not the DA but rather the time from the marker.

FAF to MAP is 4.6NM (FERMO to Missed approach point)
At 90 knots ground speed that’s 3min 4seconds.

It's the opposite. The MAP is a defined location (look at the snip of the regulatory source document I posted). Time is just a basic non+regulatory time = distance/speed calculation and the table just a group of common speeds (Jepp uses some different ones than the FAA). If your ground speed is 96.2 KTS you can calculate it yourself.

DA Is not a timing at all. It whenever you get to DA in glideslope/path.

 

[iamtheari]

What exactly does the dashed line tell us? The Chart User’s Guide calls it a “missed approach track” in the profile view diagram, but the text of the document apparently only uses the term in reference to the plan view.

 

[Witmo]

FAA test question/answer philosophy has always been to choose the least incorrect answer of the choices given. Since the correct answer, DA, is not a choice, the least incorrect answer would be 4.6 NM from the FAF for the localizer approach. Over the years, I've forgotten the number of times I've had to choose the least incorrect answer on the various tests I've taken from the FAA. You'd think they could qc their questions better but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[Clip4]

Question looks simple enough to me. You have 3 distances given, one is printed on the chart. As any FAA question, choose the best response.

 

[WDD]

Yes but it’s the graphic that is not aligned with the text.

Check me out.

Non precision approach has MDA. You descend to that altitude, hold at that altitude, and fly until you have a visual of the runway or you reach the Missed Approach Point where you go missed.

The graph shows the missed dashed arrow bending up .5 miles from the end of the runway. But text indicates missed is right at end of threshold.

Is the graph trying to show what a DA for the ILS would be ? But ILS approaches don’t have missed approach points. They have DA.

What is the chart trying to show ? Why make a point of showing the upturned dashed arrow starting to turn up at and make an explicit note that it is .5 miles from the threshold ?

 

[iamtheari]

Yes but it’s the graphic that is not aligned with the text.

Check me out.

Non precision approach has MDA. You descend to that altitude, hold at that altitude, and fly until you have a visual of the runway or you reach the Missed Approach Point where you go missed.

The graph shows the missed dashed arrow bending up .5 miles from the end of the runway. But text indicates missed is right at end of threshold.

Is the graph trying to show what a DA for the ILS would be ? But ILS approaches don’t have missed approach points. They have DA.

What is the chart trying to show ? Why make a point of showing the upturned dashed arrow starting to turn up at and make an explicit note that it is .5 miles from the threshold ?

The distance is from the middle marker to the runway. I think the dashed curving arrow starting there could be a coincidence. I looked at an ILS without a middle marker and its last distance is 0.8 to a DME fix, with the curved dashed arrow starting halfway from there to the runway.

 

[Deelee]

Timing is irrelevant for the MAP on an ILS. The MAP for a precision approach is the DA.

yup. But timing is relevant for the LOC. And the plate referenced is an ILS or LOC RWY 31. And the question specifically asks for the MAP, not the DA. And the only way to gauge the distance to the MAP from the OM (which is the FAF) is to use the distance referenced in the timing table.

So pick the answer that corresponds with that distance exactly as specified on the plate - 4.6 nm. Or don’t. And get it wrong on the test.

 

[jordane93]

yup. But timing is relevant for the LOC. And the plate referenced is an ILS or LOC RWY 31. And the question specifically asks for the MAP, not the DA. And the only way to gauge the distance to the MAP from the OM (which is the FAF) is to use the distance referenced in the timing table.

So pick the answer that corresponds with that distance exactly as specified on the plate - 4.6 nm. Or don’t. And get it wrong on the test.

No where in the question does it mention a LOC approach. It specifically mentions ILS, so again, timing is irrelevant for an ILS. Overall, it’s a wonky FAA question

 

[PaulS]

Questions like this keep the average down.

 

[Deelee]

No where in the question does it mention a LOC approach. It specifically mentions ILS, so again, timing is irrelevant for an ILS. Overall, it’s a wonky FAA question

oh it’s wonky. Obviously there is no map for an ILS. But the question asks for a map. And the plate is for an ILS or loc. And the loc has a faf to map distance of 4.6 nm specified. And the middle answer is 4.6 nm. So pick 4.6 nm. Or don’t. And get. It. Wrong. Whatever.

 

[Deelee]

Questions like this keep the average down.

I guess. But I saw this one on my written and had the judgement to get it right along with all the others to get a 100%.

 

[jordane93]

oh it’s wonky. Obviously there is no map for an ILS. But the question asks for a map. And the plate is for an ILS or loc. And the loc has a faf to map distance of 4.6 nm specified. And the middle answer is 4.6 nm. So pick 4.6 nm. Or don’t. And get. It. Wrong. Whatever.

I already passed the test. Thank god I don’t have to deal with the FAA brain busters

 

[Deelee]

I already passed the test. Thank god I don’t have to deal with the FAA brain busters

same. Reflecting on it, there were odd questions like this that were annoying - but then maybe the faa wants pilots to actually think rather than just regurgitate info....... nah lol

 

[PaulS]

I guess. But I saw this one on my written and had the judgement to get it right along with all the others to get a 100%.

Had the "judgement" or saw it before? The question asks for the missed approach point for the ILS procedure, not the LOC procedure or circling procedure. I got this one right because I saw questions like this before and knew the obtuse reasoning they use to justify asking the question that way. It's still a crap way to ask the question because it asks for the missed approach point for the ILS, which begins at the DH not the approach end of the runway.

The questions that irked me the most were the "this answer is more correct than the other answer."

 

[dtuuri]

Answer C. It's 4.1 NM from the OM. Answer B is to the end of the runway which is a silly place for an ILS to arrive at 200' AGL. Answer A must be the distance to Taco Bell.

 

[luvflyin]

I am confused. Where is everyone getting that the MAP is 4.6 from the OM. It’s 4.1 and that’s what the Chart says. The only place 4.6 shows on the Chart is in the airport inset. That’s to the runway threshold. 309[degree symbol] 4.6 NM from FAF and FAF to MAP 4.6 right above the timing table which is for the LOC Approach. The MAP is the MM. It’s 4.1 from FERMO. MM to threshold is 0.5. That adds up to 4.6. The threshold is not the MAP. If on Glideslope DH will occur at the MM. If you are below and get to DH early, you gotta miss then even though it’s before the MM. If you are above you should give some serious consideration before continuing to DH past the OM.

 

[dtuuri]

I guess. But I saw this one on my written and had the judgement to get it right along with all the others to get a 100%.

It's a shame people try so hard to get a perfect score even while thinking the FAA is less than perfect in answering their own questions. All it proves to anybody is that you have incorrect knowledge that has gone uncorrected. Or maybe that you cheated? If you study broadly enough to pass, albeit with less than a perfect score, any questions incorrectly scored wrong will no doubt result in feedback to the test masters and the question will be revised. Memorizing incorrect answers just to ace the test will leave you forever mistaken due to the law of primacy.

 

[Blatham489]

I am confused. Where is everyone getting that the MAP is 4.6 from the OM.

we're just pulling it out of our collective asses. Oh, wait, no we're not. You're deducing your number, we're taking right off the plate.

what if you're slightly below glide path but within the scale? Slightly above? Nobody is perfectly on glide path. Don't go below DA or past the MAP of you don't have runway stuff in sight (and a number of other caveats).

 

[chemgeek]

You can fix all the incorrect or misleading FAA rote knowledge after the first couple of IPCs.

 

[Witmo]

Answer C. It's 4.1 NM from the OM. Answer B is to the end of the runway which is a silly place for an ILS to arrive at 200' AGL. Answer A must be the distance to Taco Bell.

If you're at 200' AGL at the published MAP (at the threshold) you're more than 200 feet below the MDA for the localizer since MDA's 442' above the touchdown zone elevation. Just breaking out of the clag at the MAP at MDA is never a guarantee that you'll be able to land out of the approach. If this plate had a VDP published, you'd see you're well past it by the time you reach the MAP. I suspect that if you flew the ILS, you'd reach DH just about the time you reach the MM so that's why the dotted line starts upward there. The actual missed approach for the ILS is DH, not the MM but it's a reminder to decide.

 

[luvflyin]

I agree. It's a bad question. The AIM discussion of the missed approach almost suggests the MAP exists independent of DA. And the chart does tell you where the "MAP" is.

Obstacle protection for missed approach is predicated on the missed approach being initiated at the decision altitude/height (DA/DH) or at the missed approach point.​

But OTOH, the regulatory source document for the approach clearly says the ILS MAP is at DA. You'd need to calculate the exact angle to figure out it's lateral location with accuracy.
View attachment 92767

Yeah. The missed approach is calculated out for obstacle clearance predicated on the missed approach being initiated at the missed approach point. That is predicated on being on Glideslope. That will define a precise geographical location. I think they should put that location on the source document. But they just say DH

 

[luvflyin]

If you're at 200' AGL at the published MAP (at the threshold) you're more than 200 feet below the MDA for the localizer since MDA's 442' above the touchdown zone elevation. Just breaking out of the clag at the MAP at MDA is never a guarantee that you'll be able to land out of the approach. If this plate had a VDP published, you'd see you're well past it by the time you reach the MAP. I suspect that if you flew the ILS, you'd reach DH just about the time you reach the MM so that's why the dotted line starts upward there. The actual missed approach for the ILS is DH, not the MM but it's a reminder to decide.

True. MM can’t always be located exactly.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Aahhh, you can still get 17 more questions wrong.

 

[dtuuri]

If you're at 200' AGL at the published MAP (at the threshold) you're more than 200 feet below the MDA for the localizer since MDA's 442' above the touchdown zone elevation.

So then, I'm right—it's a silly place to be at 200' AGL after paying all that money for an ILS glideslope to get planes down to the touchdown zone.

 

[Sluggo63]

In the Air Force, our manuals said that the MA depiction on the plan view shows the missed approach path for the most precise approach on the plate. In this case, since the plate covers an ILS and LOC, the MAP depicted (dashed line) is showing where you go missed on the ILS portion (DA/MM). If this was a LOC only plate, it would depict where the LOC MAP was.

The only way to determine if you arrived at the MAP if you were flying this LOC is by timing and timing alone (lets disregard any RNAV capability for this discussion). Hit the FAF, fly your timing out for your GS and when the time is up, you should have gone 4.6 NM and be over the approach end of the runway. Go missed.

The question is jacked up though, since it asks about the ILS MAP, and like has been hashed out above, that occurs at DA.

Edit: Found the verbiage in the FAA pubs. FAA-H-8083. Chapter 4.


So, don't go by the picture in the plan or profile views unless you are looking for the "top line" MAP.

 

[aterpster]

We were talking about this last night at the club. It was decided that the MAP is not the DA but rather the time from the marker.

FAF to MAP is 4.6NM (FERMO to Missed approach point)
At 90 knots ground speed that’s 3min 4seconds.

DA is MAP for the S-ILS. 4.6 miles beyond FAF is MAP for S-LOC minimums.