When Will I Solo (asked many times I'm sure)

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Cptwing

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Cptwing
Hi, new member here, I have been taking flight lessons for about 2 moths now.
Currently I have 15.2 hours with 61 TO/LN. I have done everything in CFR 61.87
I train at a towered airport, so have plenty of ATC / Com experience. When I bring up the subject of solo with my CFI all I get is soon. When I pressed him he said he will not sign me off until I spend some time under the hood? WTF that is not even listed in 61.87? And if that be then fine I said lets do it then, his response soon? WTF?

I recently asked him about my IACRA application, he has not started it yet? And when I have a scheduled lesson it always seems to be well I think we will do this today, sound good as if he just makes it up as he goes. After the lesson we never sit down and discuss what went on good or bad?
I do not believe he keep any training/performance records of his student's. I should also mention he is 19 years old and graduated high school in 2017.

Everyone says what a great pilot and instructor he is. I am having my doubts and am wondering that maybe he is just gun shy about signing me or other students off. The IACRA thing is going to hold me up as well. I should also mention I have my 3rd class Med and got it before I even started, so that is not an issue.

I am seriously considering asking to switch instructors or even switching schools. I am hesitant as I know that this will set me back abit. Also I currently train on a P-28 and all the other schools around are C-172 and C-152.

Any advice or am I just overthinking this
 
"When I pressed him he said he will not sign me off until I spend some time under the hood"

Yeah, WTF?
Try another CFI. From your description, this guy sounds like he is phoning it in.
 
Perhaps the current min age for all applicants for the commercial should be raised from 18 to 21, as it is for Part 121. There's an issue of maturity and being able to evaluate the student as well as passing the FAA exams. I'd suggest talking to the Chief Pilot of the school and requesting a pre-solo evaluation as well as written progress report and syllabus. Which many, if not most, schools require. If not with the CP, then with one of the experienced CFIs.

At only 19, it's very likely you are one of the first students of this CFI. Is the CFI following a syllabus, and do you have a copy?
 
You aren’t overthinking it. Requiring hood time before first solo is absurd. He be the one ‘overthinking’ it and his thinking needs realignment
 
No syllabus,not debriefing,after your flights,sounds like he is just trying to build hours,for the big job. Sit down with the chief pilot,or school owner,and discuss your thoughts. It is your money and time being invested.
 
Good chance he’s one of those ‘milker’ CFI’s who will try to keep you around as long as possible to suck the nipple (aka gain revenue off of you), until you decide to go elsewhere.

If you’re able to takeoff, land and do 99% of the flying without his intervention and he’s still trying to come up with various items that need completion, you may want to think about finding another instructor.
 
frfly172 said:
No syllabus,not debriefing,after your flights,sounds like he is just trying to build hours,for the big job. Sit down with the chief pilot,or school owner,and discuss your thoughts. It is your money and time being invested.
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agree building hours is likely, but I know an instructor who's booked back to back to back and rarely does an immediate post-flight debrief.

Ryanb said:
….If you’re able to takeoff, land and do 99% of the flying without his intervention and he’s still trying to come up with various items that need completion, you may want to think about finding another instructor.
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how do we know he can do that? and if you can do 99% of flying after 15 hours, good for you!

this dude does sound like a kid in a CFI uniform though. I don't think I'd ever pick a 19 year old instructor.
 
eman1200 said:
how do we know he can do that? and if you can do 99% of flying after 15 hours, good for you!

this dude does sound like a kid in a CFI uniform though. I don't think I'd ever pick a 19 year old instructor.
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Just talking in broad terms.

If he’s completed his pre-solo requirements but the CFI is still pushing for other requirements to be completed, than it sounds like he’s a milker. Just my 2c though.
 
make sure you aren't paying for Pre and Post charges by the school.. if he's disappearing after the lesson without a summary/critique, don't pay for it...!!!!
 
@Cptwing, As others have hinted at... you are the customer of this flight school and as such, have a say in who is providing instruction.

My suggestion is to ask for some time with the chief instructor of the school to review your situation. Come in with some bullet points that will help the chief make a better instructor of the youngster. Don't go in as a whiney ass who is trying to create a poor little ol me environment.

At the end of the conversation, ask if you can be paired with the most senior instructor he has. And hopefully that is someone who has many hundreds of hours as an instructor and has successfully trained a few hundred pilots.

Keep in mind, just because someone earns the label of "a good pilot" does not automatically mean they are a "good instructor". And I agree with @murphey about a case can be made for an instructor to be too young.
 
I agree with every one here. Initially check to make sure ur not being charged for services not rendered. Then sit down with the chief and explain that you need a timeline. If the chief doesn’t creat a reasonable outcome, new school
 
I had my IACRA done after my first flight, time to move on... and I would talk to the chief flight instructor.
 
Cptwing said:
Hi, new member here, I have been taking flight lessons for about 2 moths now.
Currently I have 15.2 hours with 61 TO/LN. I have done everything in CFR 61.87
I train at a towered airport, so have plenty of ATC / Com experience. When I bring up the subject of solo with my CFI all I get is soon. When I pressed him he said he will not sign me off until I spend some time under the hood? WTF that is not even listed in 61.87? And if that be then fine I said lets do it then, his response soon? WTF?

I recently asked him about my IACRA application, he has not started it yet? And when I have a scheduled lesson it always seems to be well I think we will do this today, sound good as if he just makes it up as he goes. After the lesson we never sit down and discuss what went on good or bad?
I do not believe he keep any training/performance records of his student's. I should also mention he is 19 years old and graduated high school in 2017.

Everyone says what a great pilot and instructor he is. I am having my doubts and am wondering that maybe he is just gun shy about signing me or other students off. The IACRA thing is going to hold me up as well. I should also mention I have my 3rd class Med and got it before I even started, so that is not an issue.

I am seriously considering asking to switch instructors or even switching schools. I am hesitant as I know that this will set me back abit. Also I currently train on a P-28 and all the other schools around are C-172 and C-152.

Any advice or am I just overthinking this
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Man as soon as I could put it on the runway without the instructor reaching for the controls I was set free. Maybe this kid is having trouble with adulting? Or, if he is grabbing for the controls or telling you what to do during the landing, you're not ready.
 
During my lessons I do all the flying unless he want to show me something. I take off and land myself, not always picture perfect, my earlier landings I bounced and floated a few, but that was like 20 or more landings ago. I stay on the centerline for the most part to and land even in 15 knot crosswind. I am going to talk to the school owner, not sure if they actually have a Chief Pilot / CFI? Or I also completed their ground school with different instructor and am consistently getting 80-90 on the practice tests 4VFR.com and I bought a subscription to Dauntless Ground School, I am waiting as advised to take the test after I begin cross country. For the record I am no kid I am 57 abit old to be starting out, but I could never afford this before.
Another thing that is ****ing me off is I only get 2 years on my MED and I do not want to spend too much of it as a student. I got mine early because at my age you do not want to invest too much and find out you cant get it.
 
I did .5 hours of hood time before my first solo. Which was at 14 hours. You’re probably right there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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Everything I read is IACRA takes 3 weeks to clear you? Is this still the case?
 
@Cptwing where are you located and what airport/school are you training at?
 
Cptwing said:
Everything I read is IACRA takes 3 weeks to clear you? Is this still the case?
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It took 3 weeks to get my card from them. But once the paperwork is filled out it was pretty quick. You have to start it up though. The cfi just completes his part.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
When do you solo? There is no set answer...

I was at 20-25-ish hours. But I did also switch instructor, school, and aircraft type.
 
I don't know your CFI so it would be unfair to judge him as a person. But I am not flawless, I have prejudice with all CFIs who are young. I think it is impossible to gain much needed experience at such a young age, therefore I would not train with someone in their 20s :( But that's just me.
He may have safety reasons for not soloing you yet, or he may be, like others mentioned, milking you. You won't find out until you sit down and talk to him.
It's not a race in terms of how many hours / how many landings before you solo. It took me forever to solo but I knew I was not ready, so I let my CFI decide. And before he soloed me, he sent me up with another CFI for a pre-solo check out. If you feel you are ready to solo, ask another CFI to go up with you and check you out.

Regarding the post flight debrief: now that's a big no-no. How would you know what you did well/wrong during the lesson if you guys don't talk about it afterwards? He maybe young and you are one of his first students but don't let him off the hook after the lesson. Force him to walk you through what happened and what could be improved upon!

Otherwise, find someone else!
 
And about your medical, go for basicmed and you don’t have to worry about 2 years and AME thing anymore
 
Here is my 2 cents:

Most students obtain (1) way before (2).

61.87
c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight, a student pilot must have:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and

(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.

You have a young less experienced CFI and he is no rush to send you up solo until he is comfortable doing so. In my view he is being prudent because he probably has not solo’d many students.

Also under the current FAA regulations there is no reason to solo a student early in their training. When regs were re-written in the 90s, required solo hours were reduced and dual hours were increased. Presolo, XC, night training can all be accomplished prior to solo without any loss in the training.

As long as your skills are increasing and your training is progressing, quit obsessing about when you will solo.
 
Cptwing said:
Hi, new member here, I have been taking flight lessons for about 2 moths now.
Currently I have 15.2 hours with 61 TO/LN. I have done everything in CFR 61.87
Click to expand...

So what? Just because you covered something doesn't mean you're any good at it


You'll solo when your instructor thinks you're ready, you are welcome to get a second opinion going up with any other CFI, but at only 15 hours I wouldn't be too concerned, if you had like 25, I'd start looking into if it's you or your instructor.

Cptwing said:
I train at a towered airport, so have plenty of ATC / Com experience.
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Irrelevant

Infact I've found it a little faster, easier and better to train and solo students at uncontrolled airports.


Cptwing said:
When I bring up the subject of solo with my CFI all I get is soon. When I pressed him he said he will not sign me off until I spend some time under the hood? WTF that is not even listed in 61.87? And if that be then fine I said lets do it then, his response soon? WTF?
Click to expand...


Well you're going to need the hood time anyways, getting a little in before solo isn't a bad idea.

Heck my guys do full stalls, falling leaf stalls, spin training, crosswind, off field, and tailwind landings as well as simulated power off semi precision before solo.

I don't train to the lowest common denominator and it's my ink and ticket on the line, which makes it my call.


Cptwing said:
I recently asked him about my IACRA application, he has not started it yet? And when I have a scheduled lesson it always seems to be well I think we will do this today, sound good as if he just makes it up as he goes. After the lesson we never sit down and discuss what went on good or bad?
I do not believe he keep any training/performance records of his student's. I should also mention he is 19 years old and graduated high school in 2017.
Everyone says what a great pilot and instructor he is. I am having my doubts and am wondering that maybe he is just gun shy about signing me or other students off. The IACRA thing is going to hold me up as well. I should also mention I have my 3rd class Med and got it before I even started, so that is not an issue.
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Has he signed anyone else off to solo? What were their experiences with him?


You can get your student pilot cert on your own with the FSDO or any DPE by the way

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/become/student_cert/

"How do I get a student pilot certificate?
You must complete an application through the Integrated Airman Certification and Rating Application (IACRA) website or by paper using FAA form 8710-1 and submit it to a Flight Standards District Office (FSDO), an FAA-designated pilot examiner, an airman certification representative associated with a part 141 flight school, or a certificated flight instructor. The authorized individual will process your application and submit the required documents to the Airmen Certification Branch. Once, reviewed by Airman Certification Branch, the student pilot certificate will be mailed to the address provided by you on the application."

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/

DPEs
http://av-info.faa.gov/DesigneeSearch.asp


As far as his age, meh whatever, I'd have to know more about his experience and skill

As far as no debrief, that's not good, however when you're just working on the last touches before solo sometimes there isn't a whole ton to debrief, it just practice practice practice.


Cptwing said:
I am seriously considering asking to switch instructors or even switching schools. I am hesitant as I know that this will set me back abit. Also I currently train on a P-28 and all the other schools around are C-172 and C-152.

Any advice or am I just overthinking this
Click to expand...

Does the existing school has another CFI you can fly with, preferably a higher time pilot?


Also one thing, it's not the school, or the type of plane, you should seek out the CFI and train wherever he/she works out of. Sadly lots of new folks don't know what they don't know, and they shop schools when they should be shopping for individual CFIs.

To your question, you seem kinda high strung, I'm not really sure it's your CFI based on that, but it will only cost you a hour of airplane and CFI time for a second opinion.


Ryanb said:
...
If you’re able to takeoff, land and do 99% of the flying without his intervention and he’s still trying to come up with various items that need completion, you may want to think about finding another instructor.
Click to expand...

There's often a gap between what a student thinks they can do and what they really can do

This is often seen in more "hands on" CFIs who sometimes help their students a little too much, vs a good CFI who will let the student take a mistake to the point the student has no chance of recovering the plane, then they'll abruptly step in, stabilize the plane, explain and have the student repeat the maneuver


murphey said:
Perhaps the current min age for all applicants for the commercial should be raised from 18 to 21, as it is for Part 121. There's an issue of maturity and being able to evaluate the student as well as passing the FAA exams. I'd suggest talking to the Chief Pilot of the school and requesting a pre-solo evaluation as well as written progress report and syllabus. Which many, if not most, schools require. If not with the CP, then with one of the experienced CFIs.

At only 19, it's very likely you are one of the first students of this CFI. Is the CFI following a syllabus, and do you have a copy?
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This has nothing to do with age, more with how they were raised, in the US we draw out childhood waaaaaaaay too long.

Point is if you're old enough to take a M16 and get your head blown off for your country (or rather politicians) you're old enough to do all the adult stuff too.
 
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WannFly said:
And about your medical, go for basicmed and you don’t have to worry about 2 years and AME thing anymore
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Wrong, and James, as a CFI you know better. Badic Med only available after the initial class 3 or N
 
Ryanb said:
If he’s completed his pre-solo requirements but the CFI is still pushing for other requirements to be completed, than it sounds like he’s a milker. Just my 2c though.
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I'm not so sure. It's just as likely that the poor kid is not firm enough to say "you suck and I cannot be sure you can even make 3 circuits safely" to the OP, so he's inventing bogus excuses. The combative tone of the initial message sure caught my attention. But I remember a fellow student who flew into hangar on his solo (BTW he survived with just bruises). Of course, if the CFI is simply meek, he is in the wrong and should be straightforward with his concerns. My primary CFI strung me along too and I had to figure out what was wrong with my flying on my own. It turned out to be consistency and I ended making an uneventful solo at 32 hours (ironically in the airplane that was demolished by flying into a hangar as I mentioned above).
 
murphey said:
Wrong, and James, as a CFI you know better. Badic Med only available after the initial class 3 or N
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The OP said he already has a 3rd class, thus if he wants he can go forward with basicmed from here on out.
 
James331 said:
Heck my guys do full stalls, falling leaf stalls, spin training, crosswind, off field, and tailwind landings as well as simulated power off semi precision before solo.






.
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Come to think of it, first time and second time around it was pretty much the same, didn't spin, but definitely talked about spin recovery and what causes it. Did 1/2 and no flap landings too. Also did a rejected take off, go arounds and many short approaches.

To the OP, I still float occasionally and bounce once in a while, they are non events other than ****ing me off. My last instructor told me that when I screw up, I fix it, so he was comfortable getting out of the plane on my comeback as a pilot. I would probably fly with someone else if I were you, but keep in mind the problem may not be the instructor. We are pretty much the same age BTW, keep at it, you'll love it.
 
zaitcev said:
I'm not so sure. It's just as likely that the poor kid is not firm enough to say "you suck and I cannot be sure you can even make 3 circuits safely" to the OP, so he's inventing bogus excuses. The combative tone of the initial message sure caught my attention.
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This was my first thought. Kinda reminded me of a recent incident where a student decided himself he was ready to solo and it didn't go too well.
 
Question for the CFI's of our group.... What are you looking for in your students that says they are ready for solo flight?

For me (when I one day earn my CFI creds) I'm thinking if the student can run a series of takeoffs, pattern flights, and landing, without me being anymore than a learned observer (I don't say anything, I don't do any inputs), and he does it to the appropriate standards, then that student is just about ready for solo flight.
 
Pardon me James33 we are not all born Chuck Yeager's like yourself. If he had a confidence problem in my flying why does he spend time on his phone texting his girlfriend while I am flying the plane? I have done full stalls and recovered from them within the required ACS requirements? I have done go around which I initiated on my own as I felt the approach was unstable. I have done steep turns, slow fly, etc all within the ACS not always but that's what solo practice is for is it not?

I do not believe I came off as arrogant in my post, maybe you have these attitudes toward students because you suck as an instructor? And as far as IACRA why should I drive to the FSDO when I am paying him for it and it is his responsibility to initiate it! You have no idea of my flying ability or lack of. Do I feel I am ready for solo cross country no, by three laps around the track with two touch and gos and a full stop, I know very well I can handle that even in xc as almost all my landings are xc anyway.

As far as 25 hrs, seriously I should spend another 3k to find out if its me or him? Were you or are you a milkman CFI? Also I should just walk off the tarmac every lesson without any after lesson briefings, without any information to prep for the next lesson? It almost sounds as though you taught the same way.
 
Joey4420 said:
I had my IACRA done after my first flight, time to move on... and I would talk to the chief flight instructor.
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That's when it SHOULD be done. No need to wait. Definitely fly with another instructor there. Now, not every student is ready at 15 hours, but the majority will be. Time for another opinion.
 
I got "first" soloed 4 times because I switched instructors. 2 changes were my geography changes, 1 fired because he was milking me.

The guy I fired was harping on emergency procedures as his excuse not to re-solo me. Now, that could make sense if we're talking solo XC, but for practice area and/or another airport in the local area I think it was excessive.

The last "lesson" I had with that guy he was on his mobile phone for about an hour while I did touch and goes at a nearby airport Rio Vista (O88). We were on final to Concord (CCR) when he finally hung up. The debrief was "That was cool." I'm like ok, so you want me to do three laps solo now? His answer was not yes. He did want me to write him a check for his time, though.

So, on to the next instructor.. at VCB
 
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murphey said:
Wrong, and James, as a CFI you know better. Badic Med only available after the initial class 3 or N
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Missed the Class 3 comment, sorry. Another question, then. Is there a minimum timeframe (delay) required between Class 3 and Basic Med?
 
Now as far as if I am not ready, then tell me when or what’s lacking and how to get there. I am not going to keep shoveling money his way with no clear path to get there.
 
Cptwing said:
Now as far as if I am not ready, then tell me when or what’s lacking and how to get there. I am not going to keep shoveling money his way with no clear path to get there.
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Find another instructor Cptwing, I hope you get to solo, but expect at least a full lesson with the new guy before it happens.
 
Cptwing said:
I do not believe I came off as arrogant in my post, maybe you have these attitudes toward students because you suck as an instructor? And as far as IACRA why should I drive to the FSDO when I am paying him for it and it is his responsibility to initiate it! You have no idea of my flying ability or lack of. Do I feel I am ready for solo cross country no, by three laps around the track with two touch and gos and a full stop, I know very well I can handle that even in xc as almost all my landings are xc anyway.
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Don't take offense or lash out at those here who are brainstorming what might or might not be going on here. Getting to know you, and your status/skills as a student, is not easy to do in just a few sentences of text such as your original post. As some have said, "hours" is not a good measure by itself of readiness to solo. Nor is a list of tasks you've been asked to do, and have done. A lot of flying is a matter of judgement. Yours. And the instructor's. We have little to go on, in this primitive text medium, to comment on either.
I'm not a cfi yet, but I've been teaching long enough to know, students are not always the best judge of their own abilities. But by the same token, instructors are not always good at their job. So I agree to seek a second opinion.

Edit-- the bit about the instructor texting while you're flying *is* alarming and unprofessional.
 
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