When to start Instrument training?

WDD

WDD

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Just got my PPL.

How long before I start the training for Instrument rating?
The DPE said he always recommends getting about 25 hours of X Country VFR first. Didn't ask him if that was to avoid burn out, to solidify your new flying skills a little bit more, etc.​

Should I do the written first, and then start the training?

How exactly do you get the hour requirements?
  • 50 hours of Pilot in Command cross country (Assume this can include VFR as well as any training you do?)
  • 40 hours of simulated or actual instrument time (Since you can't fly IFR without being IFR certified, doesn't his all have to be with an instructor? If so, is the student still PIC?)
  • 15 hours of flight instruction towards instrument rating (Isn't this part of the 40 hours of actual instrument time?)
I've got to be reading this incorrectly. It seems like this directs you to have 10 hours of VFR cross country, and 40 hours flying with an instructor. (and of course the other requirements of test prep, length of X country, etc.)
​

Thoughts / recommendations?
 
You need 50 XC PIC to do the IFR checkride. This is probably why he recommends getting about half of that before you start IFR training, you will get some and CAN get a lot of it during IFR training.

Those first two requirements are experience requirements and don't read to much into them. You need to meet both requirements before the day of your checkride.
"Simulated IFR time" is Hood time. YOu do not have to have an instructor on board for this, you can use a safety pilot for some of your time. Obviously to file IFR you would need someone onboard to do this for you, since you aren't rated. There is no requirement to file IFR during all your training, although it tends to be a good idea to get a fair amount more than the minimum required.

The 3rd has to do with the minimum IFR instruction required. In fact most people have a hours lot more of their 40 hourss of instrument times as Dual/Flight Instruction received.
 
Do as I did, and just continue training. Certainly take your friends and family on little jaunts, and certainly make them cross-countries, to get lunch or see something.
The minute you start IFR training, study for the written and take it.
But don't do as I did and stop after you've gotten your training, and then never get around to taking the practical, and then have to get back into it years later!
 
Many will disagree, but I suggest to new Private Pilots that they spend a year (or 100 hours, whichever comes first) building experience and confidence. Do some significant cross-countries using Flight Following. Instrument students who are very comfortable with Flight Following invariably pick up instrument flying more quickly.
 
If you get the rating part 141 you do not need to complete the 50 hour pic CC requirement, good or bad. I was 141.
 
write-stuff said:
Many will disagree, but I suggest to new Private Pilots that they spend a year (or 100 hours, whichever comes first) building experience and confidence. Do some significant cross-countries using Flight Following. Instrument students who are very comfortable with Flight Following invariably pick up instrument flying more quickly.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I flew from Reno to the Bahamas VFR before I started my instrument training. The experience was invaluable.
 
I have no recommendation as to when you should start, you should do so when you are financially and mentally prepared to do it. If you don't go into it with a can do want to attitude you will burn out quickly after just getting your ppl.

I wouldn't say you should have your written done before training but I would highly suggest being into the test prep phase. That way you have the groundwork for the topics you will be learning and applying in the airplane so you aren't wasting time and money understanding things you could have already known. At that point you can use your instructor or knowledge learned in the airplane to finalize your studies before taking the test.
 
I think it all depends on you. There's nothing wrong with taking a little break from training but if it were me I'd keep going. Since you're going to need to do some time building, make sure to look at the requirements for a commercial license too. Among other things, it requires "One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point." You may as well knock this out since you need the cross country time. And don't forget to THROTTLE BACK. You're building time, not miles.
 
I have had students complete an online ground and take the written prior to starting the flight lessons. The drawback with doing it that early, is that they usually have to restudy for the practical. However, sometimes they feel less pressed for time than if they do the flying in conjunction with studying for the written. The other advantage is that they have some background knowledge before beginning the IFR flying lessons.


The PIC XC can be done various ways before or during IFR training. A more economical way that some students have done is to get some instrument training first. Then the student flies with another qualified pilot who will be the safety pilot and, together, they fly some XC flights as simulated IFR (sIFR) in VFR/VMC so the time counts toward both the XC PIC and 40 hours of instrument time for the (IFR student) pilot on the controls. The safety pilot can also log PIC time.

Only 15 of the 40 hours of the instrument time needs to be training with an instructor. How many hours beyond the minimum 15 hours of instruction you will actually need depends on you. You could also work with your instructor so that your instrument flight lessons are done in a manner that would allow you to log the flight as both XC and instrument training time.
 
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write-stuff said:
Many will disagree, but I suggest to new Private Pilots that they spend a year (or 100 hours, whichever comes first) building experience and confidence. Do some significant cross-countries using Flight Following. Instrument students who are very comfortable with Flight Following invariably pick up instrument flying more quickly.
Click to expand...

No doubt about that. If you are going to do 25hrs of XC> Do yourself a favor and actually go somewhere, not just the 51NM minimum. Use flight following, and listen to all the IFR traffic on Freq.
 
I think people benefit from doing some very long XCs across (or around) weather boundaries before the IR. Builds a proper respect for weather.

The IR makes weather decisions *harder* not easier. Knowing from experience of looking at a glance at the weather charts and knowing you’re headed into a **** show is valuable. As is the sinking feeling of “I’m sleeping in the FBO pilot lounge chair for 12 hours for this crap to move on and then I need to get mentally prepared for a night flight...”

Absolutely nothing bad at all about continuing training immediately though. Learning to fly by instrument reference is always going to pay dividends. And there’s nothing that says you can’t do both some VFR XCs and train for the instrument at the same time. Also no pressure to show up at the ride with the bare minimums of hours like everyone always pushes and calculates. None at all.

Experience is experience. Gather lots.
 
WDD said:
Just got my PPL.

How long before I start the training for Instrument rating?
The DPE said he always recommends getting about 25 hours of X Country VFR first. Didn't ask him if that was to avoid burn out, to solidify your new flying skills a little bit more, etc.​

Should I do the written first, and then start the training?

How exactly do you get the hour requirements?
  • 50 hours of Pilot in Command cross country (Assume this can include VFR as well as any training you do?)
  • 40 hours of simulated or actual instrument time (Since you can't fly IFR without being IFR certified, doesn't his all have to be with an instructor? If so, is the student still PIC?)
  • 15 hours of flight instruction towards instrument rating (Isn't this part of the 40 hours of actual instrument time?)
I've got to be reading this incorrectly. It seems like this directs you to have 10 hours of VFR cross country, and 40 hours flying with an instructor. (and of course the other requirements of test prep, length of X country, etc.)
​

Thoughts / recommendations?
Click to expand...

You should really have a start on the flight portion of your training before taking the written...many of the terms and concepts asked about on the test will be a total mystery without some fight experience. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that it would be easier with some background knowledge.

Bob
 
If you can tag along with other instrument rated pilots on a few flights, it could really help you get some good initiation to what it's like. You might not feel as overwhelmed when you start training.
 
bobmrg said:
You should really have a start on the flight portion of your training before taking the written...many of the terms and concepts asked about on the test will be a total mystery without some fight experience.
Click to expand...
That would be my suggestion as well. Start on studying anytime you like - it doesn't cost anything other than your time - but as Bob said the ground school material will be a lot easier to understand if you do some flying at the same time. So I'd plan for ground and flight training to overlap.

- Martin
 
Start right away. In fact, doing more than the very basic instrument training during your PPL training is a valuable head start in your instrument training and also makes you a safer VFR pilot. My instructor didn't just have me track a VOR and do the minimum hood work. He had me fly the first leg of my long dual cross country under the hood, using only VORs. He also had me do the Oscar Pattern for an hour, plus with unusual attitudes added in. After I'd gotten advance enough that he trusted me, he had me fly multiple flights in actual - during my PPL. It made me so much better.

The DPE I did my PPL with told me to get my instrument rating right away, because it makes you better as a pilot generally. He also recommends that everyone do at least a CFI level spin course, if not some basic aerobatics. I got my instrument with him about 11 months later, after 2 reschedules due to weather (would have been 8 months)



bobmrg said:
You should really have a start on the flight portion of your training before taking the written...many of the terms and concepts asked about on the test will be a total mystery without some fight experience. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that it would be easier with some background knowledge.

Bob
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I have always done the flying prior to the written. The written is easy once you learn the concepts while applying them to flying.
 
I agree with both the "get started right away" and "get good XC experience right away." I think it depends on your time, money, instructor, etc whether you are able to do both at once.

Personally, I loved going places and taking new people flying after getting my PPL, and so probably had about a 1:1 ratio of IFR training flights to fun VFR XC's with friends during that period. As much as IFR training is fun and interesting, coming from a technical background it wasn't particularly difficult, and bouncing around in a plane where I couldn't look out the window could get tiring/boring. I don't know whether I would have stuck with it if I weren't flying around beautiful places (often with beautiful people, but that's a different story) and seeing new airports on VFR flights in between IFR lessons.

Once I had enough IFR training to be comfortable with it, I did solo marginal VMC flights under VFR, knowing that I had the skills to confess to ATC and keep the blue side up if I misjudged the weather. (Helped that I'm on the relatively flat east coast.) One of my most memorable flights was from central North Carolina to Maryland, in truly marginal VMC. Got pretty hazy over rivers, and twice I wound up landing in Virginia to let low clouds pass by, once taking off not knowing whether I'd be able to do more than circle above the airport and land again, but found a break that would get me at least to the next (airport) waypoint. Shenanigans like this I would never recommend if you actually have to get somewhere, or with passengers, or before you can keep the blue side up and keep track of where you are. But if you are careful, can take your time, don't neglect the basics (fuel management), and are comfortable with a backup plan that involves ATC scrutiny, it's hugely valuable experience.
 
You know where I sit with my PPL right now so I've got no experience to talk of. But I will tell you my plans, maybe it makes sense to you or others. I plan to enjoy the heck out of my certificate allowing me to fly VFR and take the family to locations once or twice a month for fun day trips. I have zero aspirations of every getting paid to fly so this may not work for everyone as my plan is a slow process to an IFR rating. After the family has had some fun and I see that flying is something the wife will truly enjoy doing on a semi-regular basis I will look into getting my IFR rating. This will do two things for me. 1) I'll be able to save up money again as I've succeeded so far in getting my PPL without incurring any additional debt. My bank account has decreased but my credit cards all still show a zero balance. :) 2) If the wife enjoys flying as much as I hope, she will be much more receptive to a conversation about spending a lot of money on another set of flight lessons. I look at the IFR rating as something I should get to for the safety aspect of it. However, I understand my wife will look at it as an additional cost and will wonder if its really worth the cost.
 
I will second the recommendation to fly the heck out of your PPL on XC trips to get a good handle on flight planning real trips and experiencing changing weather and winds. Also using flight following to get used to working with ATC. Then start your IR training as soon as practical and see it through to the end in 3-4 months. Getting the IR will make you a much better pilot, and should make flying MVFR a non-event. Get as much actual IFR as possible during training, and try to fly in various kinds of weather conditions to get valuable experience with your instructor. But beware, as other have mentioned, flying IFR makes your weather decisions more, not less, challenging. IFR in a light single is not a fly anywhere-anytime kind of thing, but rather a way of defusing flying in benign weather that would make VFR miserable or hazardous. There is nothing like poking through a cloud deck with 7000' tops and flying in the smooth sunshine above rather than dodging radio towers in the bumps under a MVFR overcast. The written will definitely make more sense once you have completed a portion of your training. Study all along, and take your written when everything starts to gel.

My history was putting almost 400 hours on an AA-1A, mostly XC, before realizing I needed the IR to fly out of my home field on many otherwise nice flying days away from the Great Lakes lake-effect cloud machine. I bought an AA-5, which I still own, to be able to carry more payload, be able to install instrument-capable avionics and still carry passengers, and to do my IR training in. I did my training in about 4 months, and used the IR right away to travel XC. Keeping up an aircraft for instrument flight is an expensive proposition, however. I don't want to think about 30+ years of avionics upgrades.
 
WDD said:
Should I do the written first, and then start the training?
Click to expand...
No, it is natural to start getting IFR instruction and then take your written when ready, when your instructor signs you off for the test.
You will be getting a better understanding of regulations, how the system works in practice and this way you have better chance to score higher on your written.
The knowledge actually comes easier when grounded in practice, you will pick up a lot of this knowledge from your instructor.

Will Kumley said:
However, I understand my wife will look at it as an additional cost and will wonder if its really worth the cost.
Click to expand...
Tell her life is priceless and IFR will make you (or at least should) a better, safer pilot. But I agree, it was a luxury expense for me but fortunately I had no problem with my bank account. I told my wife - look, I am not getting a brand new Porsche, how many IFR tickets would it pay for?
 
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olasek said:
No, it is natural to start getting IFR instruction and then take your written when ready, when your instructor signs you off for the test.
You will be getting a better understanding of regulations, how the system works in practice and this way you have better chance to score higher on your written.
The knowledge actually comes easier when grounded in practice, you will pick up a lot of this knowledge from your instructor.


Tell her life is priceless and IFR will make you (or at least should) a better, safer pilot. But I agree, it was a luxury expense for me but fortunately I had no problem with my bank account. I told my wife - look, I am not getting a brand new Porsche, how many IFR tickets would it pay for?
Click to expand...

My wife was all about my IR training for safety and proficiency, since we travel together on trips! We've traveled enough IFR together she can work the radios as well as I can. (She has the PPL but no IR.) It's nice to have a second pilot on board.
 
chemgeek said:
My wife was all about my IR training for safety and proficiency, since we travel together on trips! We've traveled enough IFR together she can work the radios as well as I can. (She has the PPL but no IR.) It's nice to have a second pilot on board.
Click to expand...
And this is the goal I hope to achieve!
 
olasek said:
Tell her life is priceless and IFR will make you (or at least should) a better, safer pilot. But I agree, it was a luxury expense for me but fortunately I had no problem with my bank account. I told my wife - look, I am not getting a brand new Porsche, how many IFR tickets would it pay for?
Click to expand...
I agree 100%, but I gotta get her in the sky with me first before this discussion can be had. Still waiting on my checkride. Latest hang up was me getting sick, now it seems like the school never got the memo about ADS-B being a requirement this year.
 
write-stuff said:
Many will disagree, but I suggest to new Private Pilots that they spend a year (or 100 hours, whichever comes first) building experience and confidence. Do some significant cross-countries using Flight Following. Instrument students who are very comfortable with Flight Following invariably pick up instrument flying more quickly.
Click to expand...

Agree. We will be in the minority here, but you can’t do in the clouds what you don’t do really well visually.
 
After my PPL, I spent 3 months flying around with family and friends. But the cancellations on days where the weather was benign but a low cloud deck prevented me from going VFR was the deciding factor.
I'm now half way thru my IR training. I did the long xcountry entirely under the hood and it was a blast.
 
Whenever you feel like it? Including 'never' if it isn't interesting?

You'll hit a point in your VFR flying where it's getting routine. Maybe. That's a good time to try the next cool thing if you wanna.

Nothing wrong with fair-weather flying, though. As long as you're having fun, party on. Nobody tells you that clouds have an interesting smell inside. I can't describe it. Watery and ozone-y and it's something not many people walking around even know about. I'd have started mine sooner if someone had mentioned that. :D
 
write-stuff said:
Many will disagree, but I suggest to new Private Pilots that they spend a year (or 100 hours, whichever comes first) building experience and confidence. Do some significant cross-countries using Flight Following. Instrument students who are very comfortable with Flight Following invariably pick up instrument flying more quickly.
Click to expand...

^that
 
WDD said:
Just got my PPL.

How long before I start the training for Instrument rating?
The DPE said he always recommends getting about 25 hours of X Country VFR first. Didn't ask him if that was to avoid burn out, to solidify your new flying skills a little bit more, etc.​

Should I do the written first, and then start the training?

How exactly do you get the hour requirements?
  • 50 hours of Pilot in Command cross country (Assume this can include VFR as well as any training you do?)
  • 40 hours of simulated or actual instrument time (Since you can't fly IFR without being IFR certified, doesn't his all have to be with an instructor? If so, is the student still PIC?)
  • 15 hours of flight instruction towards instrument rating (Isn't this part of the 40 hours of actual instrument time?)
I've got to be reading this incorrectly. It seems like this directs you to have 10 hours of VFR cross country, and 40 hours flying with an instructor. (and of course the other requirements of test prep, length of X country, etc.)
​

Thoughts / recommendations?
Click to expand...

Great question.

I see pilots along the entire arc of airman certification. Some are on accelerated tracks to get the required certificates and ratings as quickly as possible. Some are doing it purely for pleasure or fun. And others fall somewhere in between - perhaps looking to keep aviation in their back pocket as a career or part time occupation.

What follows is purely my opinion.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to build professional pilots on accelerated tracks. To thoroughly learn the art and science of aviation requires a great deal more time. Of course, the certificates and ratings themselves are frequently called "licenses to learn." That's very often true, yet at the same time the learning process would be better -- richer, greater dimension, leading to more insight -- if the fundamental block of learning just completed was exercised and explored prior to moving on. But it's not a perfect world, and there are practical realities we have to live with. Accelerated training is one of them, and despite the drawbacks there are some benefits to be found as well. It's a necessary compromise for many pilots looking to make aviation their career.

In my view the "space" between the private pilot certificate and the instrument rating is the best opportunity for a pilot to grow into his or her new flying privileges. And I view pilotage as one of the most critical of all fundamental skills; I've made the statement that it's literally impossible to be a pilot (any level of certificate) without it. Yet aside from a few cross country flights as student pilots, we rarely develop this skill beyond its raw basics in primary training. Pilotage is directly linked with Situational Awareness, ADM, and Risk Management. Pre-flight planning. Understanding winds/weather. It's one of the main flying "muscles" that, in my opinion, is ready to be developed directly after training. But when you jump directly into an instrument rating, the opportunity to do that is taken away, to some extent.

Flying around VFR for a while generally pays big dividends, particularly if you recognize the opportunity to enhance your skills during that time.

25 hours sounds reasonable. 50 or 100 sounds even better, but of course hours are a variable way of tracking "real" time. That may represent years of flying to some, or just a few months to others. It's highly variable so I'd leave that judgement up to you, but I will reiterate the extremely high value of exercising the privileges of your new private pilot certificate (sans instrument rating) for a time before pursuing additional ratings.

Best of luck to you,
 
Lots of good advice. The only thing I have to add is spend some time using the ground school method of your choice (online, classroom, etc) and actually spend the time to learn the concepts, rules, and procedures for IFR flying vs relying on one of those weekend exam prep courses. IMO those things only teach you how to take and pass the test which is important but won’t help you much once you are out flying for real in the system.
 
I planned to wait a year. Two cancelled day trips for rather benign weather and I started my IR 2 ir 3 months after the PPL.

I didn't just train. We continued to take trips.

When you do train, try to make as many of the flights qualify as XC too. I did that every time I flew with a safety pilot. That way I got simulated and XC time.



Wayne
 
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