When to contact Approach before Tower? (VFR)

kicktireslightfires

kicktireslightfires

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I thought the process was to contact Approach first when landing a Bravo or Charlie, but learning that you need to contact Approach when landing at SOME Deltas has thrown me off, so I’m hoping for some clarity.

1. I know it is so for a Bravo, but are you required to contact Approach as the first point of contact when landing at a Charlie? What would happen if you just called Tower when inbound to a Charlie when 15nm out and skipped the call to Approach? Does anyone do this?

2. How do you know when a Delta airport wants you to contact Approach first? I know Key West International wants you to contact Navy Approach first when about 20 miles out and then Navy Approach will kick you over to Key West Tower once you have the field in sight. But I only know this from local knowledge. How would one know to do this if flying to a Delta for the first time?

Thanks in advance!
 
kicktireslightfires said:
I thought the process was to contact Approach first when landing a Bravo or Charlie, but learning that you need to contact Approach when landing at SOME Deltas has thrown me off, so I’m hoping for some clarity.

1. I know it is so for a Bravo, but are you required to contact Approach as the first point of contact when landing at a Charlie? What would happen if you just called Tower when inbound to a Charlie when 15nm out and skipped the call to Approach? Does anyone do this?

2. How do you know when a Delta airport wants you to contact Approach first? I know Key West International wants you to contact Navy Approach first when about 20 miles out and then Navy Approach will kick you over to Key West Tower once you have the field in sight. But I only know this from local knowledge. How would one know to do this if flying to a Delta for the first time?

Thanks in advance!
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A. You can contact tower first but there’s a good chance they’ll tell you to go up approach if you’re penetrating the outer shelf. Approach at a C will separate and sequence you in prior to being released to tower. If you’re below the shelf and go straight to tower, they probably won’t mind. A class C tower will “own” either all of the surface area or part depending on the facility.

B. You won’t know if a class D tower wants you up approach first or straight to them. Way too many differences in facilities to have a one size fits all to class Ds. Either way will work, just make sure you’re up the facility “providing ATC services” prior to penetration. Kind of a gray area there that we’ve beaten to death on POA so I won’t rehash it again.
 
I only have a few class D airports that I've been to but most show an approach frequency when I look at their chart. So that's the number I dial before entering the room. But I'm just barely a Sport Pilot so there's that ... :dunno:
 
Velocity173 said:
A. You can contact tower first but there’s a good chance they’ll tell you to go up approach if you’re penetrating the outer shelf. Approach at a C will separate and sequence you in prior to being released to tower. If you’re below the shelf and go straight to tower, they probably won’t mind. A class C tower will “own” either all of the surface area or part depending on the facility.

B. You won’t know if a class D tower wants you up approach first or straight to them. Way too many differences in facilities to have a one size fits all to class Ds. Either way will work, just make sure you’re up the facility “providing ATC services” prior to penetration. Kind of a gray area there that we’ve beaten to death on POA so I won’t rehash it again.
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Thanks! Good to know re below the C shelf and just going straight to tower if so. Would that also apply to a Bravo? If under a Bravo shelf and the next layer in is the lowest Ground-YXZ, could you just contact Tower if you want to land there?
 
I stumbled across one Class D a while back that wanted pilots to contact approach first. Maybe they had some type of LOA. At any rate, I'm not aware of any regulatory issue supporting it. Class D, call the tower. If they want you to contact someone else they'll tell you.
 
write-stuff said:
I stumbled across one Class D a while back that wanted pilots to contact approach first. Maybe they had some type of LOA. At any rate, I'm not aware of any regulatory issue supporting it. Class D, call the tower. If they want you to contact someone else they'll tell you.
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That advice makes it simple with Deltas. Thank you!
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Thanks! Good to know re below the C shelf and just going straight to tower if so. Would that also apply to a Bravo? If under a Bravo shelf and the next layer in is the lowest Ground-YXZ, could you just contact Tower if you want to land there?
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If you’re under the Bravo? Yeah, just go straight to tower. The B has nothing to do with it unless you’re up FF with the TRACON that owns the B. If up FF, they SHOULD switch you to tower prior to entry.

I wouldn’t sweat the whole class D approach / tower thing. In your Key West example, there’s a good chance Navy Key West provides sequencing for arriving VFRs to both airports. Back in the day when I did approach, it was called “stage II services.” Now it’s just basic radar services which included sequencing (with an LOA) of VFRs to some airports. Now, does it really matter if you’re a VFR and you go straight to tower? Nope, no requirement to call approach first and it shouldn’t throw a wrench into tower’s plan if you go straight to them. Generally I try and call tower around 15 miles out so they can work out a plan.
 
If they have an Approach freq published, I assume they want me to call that first. Not my job to try to guess their internal boundaries.
 
Velocity173 said:
If you’re under the Bravo? Yeah, just go straight to tower. The B has nothing to do with it unless you’re up FF with the TRACON that owns the B. If up FF, they SHOULD switch you to tower prior to entry.

I wouldn’t sweat the whole class D approach / tower thing. In your Key West example, there’s a good chance Navy Key West provides sequencing for arriving VFRs to both airports. Back in the day when I did approach, it was called “stage II services.” Now it’s just basic radar services which included sequencing (with an LOA) of VFRs to some airports. Now, does it really matter if you’re a VFR and you go straight to tower? Nope, no requirement to call approach first and it shouldn’t throw a wrench into tower’s plan if you go straight to them. Generally I try and call tower around 15 miles out so they can work out a plan.
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Great to know, thank you!

So if it's a Delta, just contact tower.

If it's a Charle, contact Approach if planning to penetrate the outer ring. Skip approach and just contact tower if already under the outer ring.

If it's a Bravo, contact Approach if planning to penetrate a outer ring. Skip approach and just contact tower if already underneath and the next ring in is the lowest Ground-XYZ one.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Great to know, thank you!

So if it's a Delta, just contact tower.

If it's a Charle, contact Approach if planning to penetrate the outer ring. Skip approach and just contact tower if already under the outer ring.

If it's a Bravo, contact Approach if planning to penetrate a outer ring. Skip approach and just contact tower if already underneath and the next ring in is the lowest Ground-XYZ one.
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You forgot TRSA :)
 
kicktireslightfires said:
If it's a Bravo, contact Approach if planning to penetrate a outer ring. Skip approach and just contact tower if already underneath and the next ring in is the lowest Ground-XYZ one.
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That might be right in theory and perhaps could work at some Bravo's. I would not try that at a real busy one at a real busy time. Think ATL when they have three landing runways stacked with 4 or 5 planes on long finals.
 
If there is a TRSA they would prefer you contact approach, but that is voluntary you can just contact the tower prior to entering the class D.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Great to know, thank you!

So if it's a Delta, just contact tower.

If it's a Charle, contact Approach if planning to penetrate the outer ring. Skip approach and just contact tower if already under the outer ring.

If it's a Bravo, contact Approach if planning to penetrate a outer ring. Skip approach and just contact tower if already underneath and the next ring in is the lowest Ground-XYZ one.
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Yes, as a technique that will work for the vast majority of the time.

As I’ve stated a million times on POA, when it comes to ATC procedures, it depends. There isn’t a one size fits all approach to every single facility. But, if you’re going by the FARs and contact the appropriate facility before penetration, you can’t go wrong.

Say you contact a class D tower and by the slight chance they want you to go to approach first. Oh well, takes a few seconds to do that. Not even worth calling the facility on the phone beforehand to see what they prefer. I’ve accidentally contacted tower (CHA) just before penetrating the outer shelf vs approach. I apologized and told them I’d go to approach. They said no, I was fine to stay up their freq. all the guy has to do is shout across the cab to approach and do a “point out.” ATC can almost always work with you if you’re not up their preferred freq.
 
Sometimes, the ATIS broadcast will instruct inbound aircraft to talk with Approach before Tower.

Addison is like that. Because it’s will within the DFW Bravo, a busy class D (lots of small and large aircraft), and very close to the approach paths of Dallas Love, you talk with Regional Approach before Addison Tower.

Us locals are used to the procedure.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
I thought the process was to contact Approach first when landing a Bravo or Charlie, but learning that you need to contact Approach when landing at SOME Deltas has thrown me off, so I’m hoping for some clarity.

1. I know it is so for a Bravo, but are you required to contact Approach as the first point of contact when landing at a Charlie? What would happen if you just called Tower when inbound to a Charlie when 15nm out and skipped the call to Approach? Does anyone do this?

2. How do you know when a Delta airport wants you to contact Approach first? I know Key West International wants you to contact Navy Approach first when about 20 miles out and then Navy Approach will kick you over to Key West Tower once you have the field in sight. But I only know this from local knowledge. How would one know to do this if flying to a Delta for the first time?

Thanks in advance!
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Whether approach will co-ordinate with a class D depends entirely on the local area. Some do, and some don't. In some cases approach has told me that the airport is 12 o'clock X miles, sqauwk vfr, have a good day.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What Deltas require you to contact Approach first?
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Those in TRSAs.

Skyknight320 said:
If there is a TRSA they would prefer you contact approach, but that is voluntary you can just contact the tower prior to entering the class D.
Click to expand...

The ones I know of will just tell you to contact approach. The voluntary part is the legal status of the TRSA airspace, not which controller you talk to.
 
dmspilot said:
Those in TRSAs.



The ones I know of will just tell you to contact approach. The voluntary part is the legal status of the TRSA airspace, not which controller you talk to.
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I suppose (like the HPN example) it’s possible, but I’ve never had a Class D tower in a TRSA tell me I had to contact approach.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I suppose (like the HPN example) it’s possible, but I’ve never had a Class D tower in a TRSA tell me I had to contact approach.
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HPN isn't in a TRSA, but it's under the NYC class B shelf and has airline service, so it's reasonable they'd want approach to sequence you.

Sort of related: when contacting a class D tower for a VFR transition, is it required to advise them you have the latest ATIS information, or is that only required if you're landing?
 
Dana said:
Sort of related: when contacting a class D tower for a VFR transition, is it required to advise them you have the latest ATIS information, or is that only required if you're landing?
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I've never given or been asked for an ATIS code during a transition, only for landing.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I suppose (like the HPN example) it’s possible, but I’ve never had a Class D tower in a TRSA tell me I had to contact approach.
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Mostly local knowledge I guess, but fargo class D prefers you contact approach before talking to them. especially when they are busy with multiple inbounds - most cargo planes. It’s under TRSA
 
Ed Haywood said:
If they have an Approach freq published, I assume they want me to call that first. Not my job to try to guess their internal boundaries.
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Yeah, but there's lots of places where that doesn't apply. The first time I used this rule, I called up Myrtle Beach 30 miles out when going to Grand Strand. The controller sounded confused and immediately sent me to the tower who told me to report midfield downwind for 5.
 
Dana said:
HPN isn't in a TRSA, but it's under the NYC class B shelf and has airline service, so it's reasonable they'd want approach to sequence you.

Sort of related: when contacting a class D tower for a VFR transition, is it required to advise them you have the latest ATIS information, or is that only required if you're landing?
Click to expand...

While the ATIS provides arrival, departure and terminal area information, I don’t know of any controller that requires acknowledgment for transitions. The controllers manual isn’t clear on that either. Just says to obtain acknowledgement of current ATIS code. Doesn’t mention if transitioning or not. Based on how vague that is, flying over at 10K would require it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Sometimes, the ATIS broadcast will instruct inbound aircraft to talk with Approach before Tower....
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Including that in the ATIS should be made a requirement in the controller's manual (and the AIM) for towers that want pilots to do that, IMO. It would also be a good idea to put it the A/FD section of the Chart Supplement if it's something that the tower in question always wants.
 
Palmpilot said:
It would also be a good idea to put it the A/FD section of the Chart Supplement if it's something that the tower in question always wants.
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Big agreement here.
 
Albany NY controllers did a GA presentation a couple of years ago. A similar question came up - there are two approach frequencies, east/west published, and if you call the west one typically they'll switch you over to the east one. So their short answer, for this airport, that day (class C), was that they didn't care. Call approach first, they'll ask you switch frequencies if they need to. The details were around them being able to transmit on more than one freq at a time, and difference in coverage for the radios at the airport.

One thing they did say - and stress - was to please keep the initial call up short. Like "Albany approach Arrow 1234" short.

Friendly group and a great discussion. If your local controllers/tower ever do a presentation I'd highly recommend attending.
 
I tell my students when they get out there in the real world, if they are unsure just call whether approach or tower. If they are on the wrong frequency they will get directed to the the proper frequency. Nothing lost except a few seconds of talking.
 
Many years back, but I used to have a nightly leg from ALB to EWR. I often went VFR down the Hudson and never contacted anyone until Newark tower at “The Lady”. Things may have changed.
 
You can still fly down the Hudson VFR and not talk to approach. It's a fantastic trip. There's a procedure for it with announcements on a CTAF at different checkpoints, and it's around 1000-1300 feet. Don't know if it could be done as a commercial cargo flight going into Newark, though. A good friend of mine used to drive "pups" for UPS from Albany to NYC every night. He loved it, but I'm pretty sure less fun than flying it.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
... I know Key West International wants you to contact Navy Approach first when about 20 miles out and then Navy Approach will kick you over to Key West Tower once you have the field in sight. But I only know this from local knowledge.
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Good to know... I'm planning a flight down there sometime in the near(ish) future (one of plenty with it not too far). Pretty new with my PPL, but was looking at my Sectional for Key West and there is a Notes/Info Box that says "INTENSIVE MILITARY JET ACTIVITY CONTACT KEY WEST APP 124.025". At least with Key West, they've noted it for folks. Whenever possible, I tend to get flight following so they would just hand you off throughout (unless they have to terminate), so there's that.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What Deltas require you to contact Approach first?
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Have you looked at the Orlando area? SFB(charlie), ORL(delta) ISM(delta) Better call Olando (MCO) approach before trying to sneak under the Bravo. Even the special VFR approaches for SFB require ATC (Orlando Approach) approval to use.
I have been based at SFB since before SFB became a Charlie. Actually, it got easier/better after the Charlie.
All it takes a simple "Orlando Approach, Nxxxxx, landing Sanford, 15 north". Do this for any Bravo and you will either get "contact..." or "squalk xxxx ident". It could not be simpler.
 
thito01 said:
Have you looked at the Orlando area? SFB(charlie), ORL(delta) ISM(delta) Better call Olando (MCO) approach before trying to sneak under the Bravo. Even the special VFR approaches for SFB require ATC (Orlando Approach) approval to use.
I have been based at SFB since before SFB became a Charlie. Actually, it got easier/better after the Charlie.
All it takes a simple "Orlando Approach, Nxxxxx, landing Sanford, 15 north". Do this for any Bravo and you will either get "contact..." or "squalk xxxx ident". It could not be simpler.
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Hey Tony, I've flown over to SFB a couple times, but that was with my CFI when I was doing some XCs for my PPL. If flying to KISM, approaching from the SW or SE, is there an issue with just staying under the Bravo and then flying direct to KISM and only contact KISM tower? I'd normally have flight following anyway, so I'd normally be talking to ORL App but if I wasn't with FF, I didn't think I'd have to contact ORL App?
 
Maybe. I always just contact approach anytime hear a Bravo so I have never tried it. It' is just too easy to just contact approach and let them tell me what they would like me to do. Orlando, and any Bravo, can be busy. Initial contact needs to tell them as much as you can, but 5 seconds is about the max you should speak. The simple first contact of "Orlando, N33333, landing Kissimmee, 15 west" can be spoken in less than 5 seconds and tells them all they really need. It says who you are, your request, and where you are in just 5 seconds. They now know where you think you are, if you are on the correct freq (based on location), which freq they need to transmit on (they have several) and your intentions/request.

Remember, they already know all their "not talking to me" aircraft in their zone. And those "radar only" aircraft are a bigger concern to them than the aircraft they are talking to. Your calling them just took some weight of their shoulders.

As an IFR pilot, I receive a lot of "unknown aircraft at 11 o'clock, opposite direction, 4500 unverified" calls from approach/center. While the controllers don't always have time for VFR flight following, many times they would prefer it so they did not have to worry about you.

As a side note, ever since I got my IFR and really learned how to talk on the radio, I have almost never received a "I don't have time for you" when requesting flight following. I think many times the controllers have time for 'well behaved' VFR, but they don't have time for 'thirty questions' VFR. Consider this exchange:
aircraft "Orlando Approach, N3333"
approach "N3333 standby, remain outside the Bravo"
aircraft "Orlando Approach, N3333, outside Bravo"
approach "N3333 state your request"
aircraft "N3333 will be landing at Kissimmee"
approach "N3333, squawk 1234, ident"
aircraft "N3333, squawk 1234, ident"
maybe approach "N3333, you are outside my area, contact approach 123.4"
maybe approach "N3333, contact tower 123.4"
maybe approach "N3333, verify 1500"

That is a lot of trouble for the controller.
Compare to:
aircraft "Orlando, N3333, landing Kissimmee, 15 West"
maybe approach "N3333, you are outside my area, contact approach 123.4"
maybe approach "N3333, contact tower 123.4"
maybe approach "N3333, squawk 1234"
Much less workload on the controller. And, he now thinks he is talking to someone he can trust. You are no longer his headache.

Just my thoughts.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
2. How do you know when a Delta airport wants you to contact Approach first?
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It may be on the ATIS or a comment in the A/FD but then it might not be. If it isn't on the ATIS then they can't get too upset with VFR arrivals calling the tower first. They'll just tell them to contact approach.

My default would be to contact approach first, if one is available, unless there is some reason why that isn't practical.
 
thito01 said:
Compare to:
aircraft "Orlando, N3333, landing Kissimmee, 15 West"
maybe approach "N3333, you are outside my area, contact approach 123.4"
maybe approach "N3333, contact tower 123.4"
maybe approach "N3333, squawk 1234"
Click to expand...

Other than controllers consistently say they don't want anything except your tail number on initial callup, I agree. The only thing I'd add to that is also saying "VFR" so they know not to look for your flight strip.
 
bflynn said:
Other than controllers consistently say they don't want anything except your tail number on initial callup, I agree. The only thing I'd add to that is also saying "VFR" so they know not to look for your flight strip.
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Actually, "VFR" is not needed. An IFR en-route contact would just be "Orlando, N3333, level 4000".
As for an IFR that is being picked up en-route, the controller already knows about your plan, so simple:
"Center, N3333, over <initial waypoint>, 5000"
For picking up IFR in the air after takeoff:
"Center, N3333, off <initial airport>"
Now, if he comes back with "What is your request", then there is an issue with the flight plan.

I am not the 'radio police', nor do I always please the 'radio police', but radio work in a busy Bravo has taught me that short and full of information is best, but still within my personal 5-sec rule on initial contact.
 
thito01 said:
Actually, "VFR" is not needed. An IFR en-route contact would just be "Orlando, N3333, level 4000".
As for an IFR that is being picked up en-route, the controller already knows about your plan, so simple:
"Center, N3333, over <initial waypoint>, 5000"
For picking up IFR in the air after takeoff:
"Center, N3333, off <initial airport>"
Now, if he comes back with "What is your request", then there is an issue with the flight plan.

I am not the 'radio police', nor do I always please the 'radio police', but radio work in a busy Bravo has taught me that short and full of information is best, but still within my personal 5-sec rule on initial contact.
Click to expand...

He’s referring to not looking for a proposal off a non towered field. Aircraft calls up out of the blue and leaves off “VFR” the controller will think one of two things. They’ve either got a pop up looking to pick up an IFR or a VFR looking for FF. Adding the “VFR” will save the controller the time in not scanning their strip board and they’ll go straight to writing / typing.
 
I’d like to hear the verbiage on the ATIS of these facilities that “require” initial contact with approach first. Basic radar services and the initial contact with approach vs tower is not to be mandated but encouraged.
 
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