When Selling Plane- Test Flights?

Snowmass said:
Even if you were holding a cashier's check for the full price and you had a notarized agreement that if the plane is damaged in any way you keep all the money?
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Well maybe then. :)
 
MauleSkinner said:
What if he’s already decided on the type, and is just trying to figure out whose airplane to buy?
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Then there is no need to fly it until everything else is done. I like Rick’s term “acceptance flight.” It is the last check in the process to verify that it flys as expected. Two planes of the same make and model will fly almost identical if they are rigged and maintained properly. The logs and prebuy will provide his information.

Sales are a negotiation. If someone wants to come see my plane and fly it immediately we can arrange it but it is not happening on my dime. Having sold a few planes, it is nauseating at the number of people who call because they want to talk aviation and tell you their life story or are are just looking for a free ride.
 
That's kind of a sad perspective. I guess we all see it differently. I take people up on right-seat demo flights all the time...neighbors, co-workers, people interested in RV's, kids thinking about aviation...If and when I decide to sell my airplane, why would I treat a prospective buyer any different?
 
swingwing said:
Then there is no need to fly it until everything else is done. I like Rick’s term “acceptance flight.” It is the last check in the process to verify that it flys as expected. Two planes of the same make and model will fly almost identical if they are rigged and maintained properly. The logs and prebuy will provide his information.

Sales are a negotiation. If someone wants to come see my plane and fly it immediately we can arrange it but it is not happening on my dime. Having sold a few planes, it is nauseating at the number of people who call because they want to talk aviation and tell you their life story or are are just looking for a free ride.
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Logs and prebuy don’t tell the whole story.

And you’re the first person to mention that you think we’re talking about a free ride on your dime.
 
I flew my first plane, a T-Craft, before buying it. That was the only one I had a prebuy done on, too, since I really didn't know what I was getting into. Then the seller (who wasn't a CFI) flew with me for another hour or so to check me out since I only had a couple hours of tailwheel time (an endorsement wasn't required back then). My next four planes were single seaters, but the last of those was airworthy when I bought it, the seller flew it to demonstrate it. I did fly the Hatz I have now before buying it, but I was in the front seat (no brakes, no instruments).
 
A simpler time. Now we have pilot factories, a huge insurance overlay, staggering liability exposure, a very complicated national airspace system, complex "simple" airplanes, and managing governmental agency that is clearly the Master of the Universe when it comes to over-regulation. As I said...he can ride the right seat all day, he ain't flying my plane by himself.
 
As a general rule, I'd expect to fly the airplane after reaching an agreement and after the pre-buy. The test flight would be the deal closer. Same with selling an airplane with 2 seats or more. I'd expect to take the prospective buyer for a flight after the other details of the deal were agreed upon.
 
Any plane I purchases it would be a requirement for me to fly in it unless it was such a deal or super long distance. I don't care if it is right or left seat whatever the person is comfortable with. The plane I currently own the owner did not have a license but let me fly with a mutual friend of ours who had flown the plane before. I flew from the right seat but flew the whole flight. If my plane was for sale would let someone fly it if they had provided a deposit and done a prebuy if they flew with me I would want to be in the left seat (just don't fly enough in the right) otherwise I have a few instructor friends I trust that I would send up with them if they were willing to pay them. The open pilot clause on my insurance says any PPL.
 
If I was buying I would expect to at least go along on a short flight and make sure everything works if that is possible. That would be after we had agreed on a purchase price and I would expect the owner to do as much or as little of the flying as he wanted.

When we bought the Cardinal we actually didn't fly it first. The day we went to look at it was low overcast so we just weren't able to unless we wanted to come back on another day. We did pull it out, start it up, and see what we could based on that however.
 
MacFly said:
My OPW requires guest pilots have 500 hours TT and 25 hours in that exact model.
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Our plane is a 57 172. We changed carriers for a better rate. I was really surprised at the change. Essentially any PPL with our permission. Last time I think it was 300 hours total and 25 hours in make and model.
 
When shopping for a plane... Looked at 3 seriously. Flew one from right side, other from left side (owner was a CFI), and the 3rd plane I actually bought was in pieces on the hangar floor. Yes it was priced right and been a great plane on every account.
 
I have bought over 30 airplanes. I never test flew a single one.
I have sold lots of planes and the buyers have never ask to test fly any of them.....
 
pigpenracing said:
Why? Lots of people buy planes sight unseen and hire ferry pilots to deliver them.
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There are things I'd buy sight unseen and there are things I wouldn't. An airplane is on the "wouldn't" list for me. There are too many variables particularly dealing with a used airplane that has been subject to wear, tear, modifications, and "upgrades".

YMMV.
 
I'd offer a test flight, but I'd treat it like a "discovery flight" offered by the schools, where I'd do the takeoff, and landing from the base-to-final turn, and the prospective buyer could do everything in between from the right seat. It's really the only way I'd be comfortable with my aircraft, as I only fitted elevator trim (on stick) and toe brakes on the left side.
 
pigpenracing said:
I have bought over 30 airplanes. I never test flew a single one.
I have sold lots of planes and the buyers have never ask to test fly any of them.....
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That's the difference between a first time and veteran buyer. I have 2 different close friends who have both bought and sold a dozen planes without either party flying it first.

Not saying a test flight is a bad idea, but experienced buyers/sellers know what to look for and how to buy.

One of my best friends just sold his 206 for over $200K sight unseen. Ferry piloting taking it to new buyer next week. It's a nice plane.
 
MacFly said:
That's kind of a sad perspective. I guess we all see it differently. I take people up on right-seat demo flights all the time...neighbors, co-workers, people interested in RV's, kids thinking about aviation...If and when I decide to sell my airplane, why would I treat a prospective buyer any different?
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Have you sold many planes? I love buying planes, but I hate selling them: lots of tire kickers, BS'ers, etc. I've bought many (8) planes over my 3 decades of flying and I've never test flown a single one. I've sold 7 of those 8 and I've never given a demo flight. Its a sellers market right now, and I'm about to sell again...no demo flights from this guy...I'm not sure what it would prove anyway.

My mechanic once said, "If it looks right it will fly right"...a simplification (not only should the plane "look right", but so should the logs, etc), but for the most part, true.
 
I've done both - bought a plane without flying it, and flying it first. It would be a strange circumstance now I would buy without having a shot at flying it. Even if the plane "looks" perfect, I'd like to know that the owner has the confidence in the plane to fly it with me, and I want to know if I feel or sense something weird about the plane, or if it is obviously leaking oil or something.

Honestly, I might have walked away from my current plane if I hadn't test flown it and fallen head over heels...
 
Country Flier said:
Have you sold many planes? I love buying planes, but I hate selling them: lots of tire kickers, BS'ers, etc. I've bought many (8) planes over my 3 decades of flying and I've never test flown a single one. I've sold 7 of those 8 and I've never given a demo flight. Its a sellers market right now, and I'm about to sell again...no demo flights from this guy...I'm not sure what it would prove anyway.

My mechanic once said, "If it looks right it will fly right"...a simplification (not only should the plane "look right", but so should the logs, etc), but for the most part, true.
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It sounds like a stressful experience for you. Maybe you should stop.
 
MacFly said:
It sounds like a stressful experience for you. Maybe you should stop.
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Actually its quite the opposite: once I take "demo flights" out of consideration, I have no stress. Its never made a buyer walk, but it has angered the tire kickers, and I can live with that.
 
Excellent! You've found a solution that works for you!
 
I've never taken demo flights (or offered them when selling). Now I'm honestly wondering if I should be test flying a plane before buying...question to those who do: Have you ever refused a plane due to the test flight that you would have bought if you hadn't test flown?
 
It sounds like a lot of you don't like to fly your airplanes. Single seaters aside, I can't think of a reason to not take up a prospective buyer. When I was looking, I even flew in a plane I had no intention of buying because after I told the owner it wouldn't work for us, he said, "Well you came to look at an airplane, you can't not fly it." Some percentage of buyers (I'd guess large) have never flown in the type they're looking to buy. Why not take them up for a demo?
 
Were I selling my airplane I'd happily take the buyer flying. I've gone flying for far worse reasons.
 
This entire discussion is relevant for those who are thinking about buying or selling several months from now — say late spring or summer (I hope). But what about now — in the midst of a pandemic that’s setting records for infections, hospitalizations and deaths? Sharing a cockpit with a stranger right now isn’t something I’d be willing to do, not even to buy or sell a plane. If the OP’s question is asked about purchasing or selling a plane right now, does that change the responses of any of you who responded that would have to fly before you buy?
 
Lon33 said:
This entire discussion is relevant for those who are thinking about buying or selling several months from now — say late spring or summer (I hope). But what about now — in the midst of a pandemic that’s setting records for infections, hospitalizations and deaths? Sharing a cockpit with a stranger right now isn’t something I’d be willing to do, not even to buy or sell a plane. If the OP’s question is asked about purchasing or selling a plane right now, does that change the responses of any of you who responded that would have to fly before you buy?
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It doesn't for me, necessarily.
 
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Lon33 said:
This entire discussion is relevant for those who are thinking about buying or selling several months from now — say late spring or summer (I hope). But what about now — in the midst of a pandemic that’s setting records for infections, hospitalizations and deaths? Sharing a cockpit with a stranger right now isn’t something I’d be willing to do, not even to buy or sell a plane. If the OP’s question is asked about purchasing or selling a plane right now, does that change the responses of any of you who responded that would have to fly before you buy?
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I'm not flying with passengers until the weather warms or I'm immune to the 'rona. Mask fogs up my glasses in the cold. No stopping it, cold glass and warm air has but one outcome. Both are essential with pax, so no pax. Not selling the aircraft right this second so I'm not worried about it.
 
Broker wants to list and sell my aircraft, unsolicited letter from him. Remains at his facility in Texas so he can give potential buyers seat time. He will hangar the airplane for three months after that I must pay him monthly rent. I am responsible for insurance and mechanical issues even if he prangs it. Will not delineate how many hours he typically flies an aircraft while trying to sell it. He charges 6.5%. So for 3 months the aircraft is 1500 miles away, he flies for free and I cover all expenses. I want to be a broker.
 
Country Flier said:
I've never taken demo flights (or offered them when selling). Now I'm honestly wondering if I should be test flying a plane before buying...question to those who do: Have you ever refused a plane due to the test flight that you would have bought if you hadn't test flown?
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Yes. I once had a purchase agreement on a T6, contingent to a demo flight and prebuy inspection. Airplane was being offered with a fresh annual, but I took along an independent AI expert in type to do a cursory look over.

Did the demo flight first. I’m in the back seat and the demo pilot in front. Right after startup, there was a problem with the intercom. I couldn’t hear the demo pilot and he couldn’t hear me. But went ahead and took off anyway.

At that point I was just along for the ride which didn’t help things. Left me with plenty of time to look around the cockpit and find various crap in the belly and other stuff not working in the panel. I finally had to shout at the pilot to take us back.

On the ground the cursory inspection confirmed the airplane was a pencil whipped basket case.

I ran from that one.
 
skippers said:
Broker wants to list and sell my aircraft, unsolicited letter from him. Remains at his facility in Texas so he can give potential buyers seat time. He will hangar the airplane for three months after that I must pay him monthly rent. I am responsible for insurance and mechanical issues even if he prangs it. Will not delineate how many hours he typically flies an aircraft while trying to sell it. He charges 6.5%. So for 3 months the aircraft is 1500 miles away, he flies for free and I cover all expenses. I want to be a broker.
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Nice! I just had a nice man from India, who happens also to be an IRS Enforcement Agent, call me to offer to help keep me from being arrested for "irregularities" in my IRS account. He called just in the nick of time, since the FBI was on its way to arrest me. Fortunately, I was able to clear up the "irregularities" by sending him some Amazon gift cards. Looks like we were both fortunate to contacted by these Samaritans...
 
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