When is a Burn Cert Required?

SoCal 182 Driver

SoCal 182 Driver

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SoCal 182 Driver
Friends - I've read some contradictory information and I'm hoping some of the smart people here can clarify things for me.

In a plane that is not use for commercial purposes, is a burn certificate required for the material used to reupholster the seats?

Comments and help appreciated.

Thanks!
 
short answer, a car3 certified aircraft, no. it only needs to be "national standard" any auto material will meet that. a far23 certified aircraft will need far 23 burn certificated materials.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
Friends - I've read some contradictory information and I'm hoping some of the smart people here can clarify things for me.

In a plane that is not use for commercial purposes, is a burn certificate required for the material used to reupholster the seats?

Comments and help appreciated.

Thanks!
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burn certificate???
 
Cessna's are an interesting case. With the restart 172, 182, 206 models the FAA had them certified under part 23 but were originally CAR 3.

The TCDS for my 182P states CAR3 and Part 23. Is a burn cert required? It was back certified as Part 23.
 
NordicDave said:
The TCDS for my 182P states CAR3 and Part 23. Is a burn cert required? It was back certified as Part 23.
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FYI: you'll find CAR 3 is still the certification basis for all TCDS 182 model variants I-XII. However, some of models I-XII have additional specific Part 23 rules applied to them by S/N for various reasons. Only the restart TCDS models XIII cert basis is Part 23. So unless your specific P model has a Part 23 flammability test rule applied to it at original certification you would still follow CAR 3. And just to add, I am unaware of any process to "back certify" an aircraft once it has been built and received its original AWC.
 
Car3.388

§ 3.388 Fire precautions—(a) Cabin interiors. Only materials which are flash- resistant shall be used. In compartments where smoking is to be permitted, the materials of the cabin lining, floors, upholstery, and furnishings shall be flame-resistant. Such compartments shall be equipped with an adequate number of self- contained ash trays. All other compartments shall be placarded against smoking.
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Bell206 said:
FYI: you'll find CAR 3 is still the certification basis for all TCDS 182 model variants I-XII. However, some of models I-XII have additional specific Part 23 rules applied to them by S/N for various reasons. Only the restart TCDS models XIII cert basis is Part 23. So unless your specific P model has a Part 23 flammability test rule applied to it at original certification you would still follow CAR 3. And just to add, I am unaware of any process to "back certify" an aircraft once it has been built and received its original AWC.
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Bell you are alway a wealth of information. I think many are confused by the pre-86 models having Part 23 listed on their TCDS when it wan't there until; the restart?

It's a mystery why the FAA would list Part 23 on the old TCDS. I'm wondering if there are areas where teh FAA could claim Part 23 rules for the legacy fleet? Or since the restart planes were Part 23 and the legacy airframes are the same the Part 23 designation was back listed on teh TCDS?

Probably not important, but would be interesting to know the rational since i own a 182P.
 
NordicDave said:
It's a mystery why the FAA would list Part 23 on the old TCDS.
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No mystery. The reason you see this varies: a new rule may be out that CAR 3 doesn't address or places a compliance date outside of CAR 3 coverage; or the OEM upgraded the production line, or and so on. Below is the reference. For example, if you look at the 182 TCDS the cert basis is only CAR 3 for all models (to include your P model) up to the 1978 182Q model S/N 182266590. After the 1979 182Q model production started with S/N 18266591 Part 23.1559 was also required in addition to all of CAR 3. You'll also see Part 36 came into play for all Q models. And Part 23.1545 for another specific S/N range. The first actual Part 23 cert basis 182 happens at S/N 18280001 with the 182S restart model. 2nd reference below. This is why its important to use S/Ns when reviewing the TCDS.
NordicDave said:
I'm wondering if there are areas where teh FAA could claim Part 23 rules for the legacy fleet?
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As in require legacy models to abide by a new rule that came out after the aircraft was produced and certified? No. In general, the only avenue the FAA has available to change an older aircraft is through the AD process. Any other method would require a change in statue, i.e., by congress. Once an aircraft is built and receives its original certification its set in stone. A prime example of this was the "new" Airworthiness Limitations Cessna came out with in 2014 that made the SID inspections mandatory for all 210s. The FAA directorate even approved it. Created quite the circus for about 6 months. However, in the end, those new ALS were only applicable to new 210s produced after the date of the ALS revision. So no legacy 210s were affected.

upload_2023-4-22_10-50-7.png
upload_2023-4-22_10-52-15.png
 
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NordicDave said:
The TCDS for my 182P states CAR3 and Part 23. Is a burn cert required? It was back certified as Part 23.
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Part 23 182's start with SN 18280001.

If your serial number is prior to that, it will be a CAR 3 airplane until it goes to the aluminum recycling center.
Cessna chose to comply with certain sections of Part 23 while still building CAR 3 airplanes if there was a benefit in doing so.
Most common example is airspeed calibration and markings. The chart in the pilot handbook provides a level of safety equivalent to CAR 3 regs.
 
Burn certs are easy to get. I wasn't clear on mine so I just did it.
 
unsafervguy said:
short answer, a car3 certified aircraft, no. it only needs to be "national standard" any auto material will meet that. a far23 certified aircraft will need far 23 burn certificated materials.
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Love the Tigercat photo!
 
If you buy PMA interior products, such as wall panels from Airtex, should they come with burn certs or is that presumed from the PMA process?
 
kgruber said:
I have a mechanic friend who does his own burn certificates. Evidentely. it is not difficult.
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As in conducts the test and self certifies, or sends to a lab for testing? There is a lab near me in FL that does the latter for approx $100. I assume they are not the only one.
 
Ed Haywood said:
should they come with burn certs or is that presumed from the PMA process?
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No, as the PMA must meet the same standard as the original part. No different than a Cessna interior part comes with no burn certificate.
Ed Haywood said:
Sounds like there would be some effort and expense to set up the apparatus, so probably not cost effective for a one time project.
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Its not much effort and easily doable for a single project. But nowadays a majority, but not all, of the interior materials you buy from established dealers meet some sort of burn test and can usually provide the documentation if asked. For example, the local upholstery shop I had aircraft owners use could obtain either a Part 25 cert or some other type of standard cert like SAE. And for a CAR 3 aircraft the SAE cert was acceptable. So whether you want to buy PMA interior parts or buy available SAE grade, etc. materials and DIY, complying with the burn requirements has become much easier today.
 
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