When does insurance rates not improve with hours logged?

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DMD3.

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DMD3.
For low time pilots wanting to own their own aircraft, it’s a given that insurance will cost more the less time they have logged, and as they build time the insurance rates decrease. However, I believe I read that there’s a threshold where insurance won’t decrease no matter how much time is logged (a pilot with 500 hours and a pilot with 5,000 hours might have the same premium, assuming that was the threshold.

I currently have around 340 hours, with 190 x/c hours and 35 night hours. Could I stand to log some more time, or is this about the best it gets? I’m still at least several years away from ownership, so I’m wondering how much I should try to fly the rental between now and then.

I realize tailwheel or complex aircraft would be expensive to insure with no time logged in those.
 
A good decrease will come when you get Instrument Rated. Maybe a little when you get Commercial. Insurance for a retract will maybe have the greatest delta - going from obscene to painful, vs a fixed gear 172 would go from ouch to doesn't hurt as much.
 
WDD said:
A good decrease will come when you get Instrument Rated. Maybe a little when you get Commercial. Insurance for a retract will maybe have the greatest delta - going from obscene to painful, vs a fixed gear 172 would go from ouch to doesn't hurt as much.
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Yes I’ve been told that earning those ratings will help. However, it’s not financially worth getting those ratings solely for insurance.
 
DMD3. said:
Yes I’ve been told that earning those ratings will help. However, it’s not financially worth getting those ratings solely for insurance.
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Wellllll…define “insurance”. Commercial, pay-to-pay-you-if-something-goes-wrong? Yeah, maybe. But to ensure your flying safety? An instrument rating in particular is a good way to improve your odds of survival when flying, IMHO. A Commercial rating helps that too but less so, again IMHO.

Consider that aspect when thinking of the cost/benefit overall.
 
Note that unless ALL of the insureds get the instrument rating, it does NOTHING for your rates.
 
My surprise was at 500 hours, there were new insurers willing to cover me in a retract. Under 500, there were 3 total. Different insurers will have different thresholds and discounts at those thresholds.
 
When I passed 1000 hours my insurance cost went down... but I passed 100 hours in make/model right around the same time, so who knows whether it was one or the other or both?
 
I got a float rating, no change, got an instrument rating, no change. Now at at 750hrs, it really hasn't gone down much, but its hard to tell, I changed my hull value from $90k, to $120k, and then $150k. Commercial check ride is a week from tomorrow, maybe that will help.
I fly a 1953 Cessna 180.
 
I only owned after getting IR. Never saw any discounts for time. (passed 500hrs during this time.) By the time I moved to retract ownership I already had commercial and CFI. Saw no discounts for time (passed 1000) or time in type (passed 500) for that either.
 
Wagondriver said:
I got a float rating, no change, got an instrument rating, no change. Now at at 750hrs, it really hasn't gone down much, but its hard to tell, I changed my hull value from $90k, to $120k, and then $150k. Commercial check ride is a week from tomorrow, maybe that will help.
I fly a 1953 Cessna 180.
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<--- Same story same plane.
 
Got an instrument rating: no change.
Obtained 500 then 1000 hours: no change.
Went from fixed gear to retractable: huge increase as @WDD said.
 
For all the ratings and hours I have tacked on, I have never once seen my insurance go down. BUT... over that time, I have nearly tripled my insured hull value and gone from into-level liability limits to $1M/$100k which is the best I can find. Sooo.... who knows.
 
I had more than 4000 hours total time when I bought my first plane but only 400 or so was in airplanes.

My Cherokee 6 insurance was about $1000 a year. When I sold it, I bought a Cessna 310Q. TT airplane (airplane multi and single) was around 600. They considered my total time (multi turbine helicopter) as part of the equation and my insurance is only $2000 a year on the 310. I also bought a Grumman AA5 and that insurance is $600.

Point being, it's like a dart board.
 
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Anybody looking at insurance over the last several years has to take into account that insurance prices have generally been rising. So maybe you WOULD have seen a decrease, but didn't just due to insurance inflation. So you might still have "relatively" seen a decrease.
 
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RussR said:
Anybody looking at insurance over the last several years has to take into account that insurance prices have generally been rising. So maybe you WOULD have seen a decrease, but didn't just due to insurance inflation. So you might still have "relatively" seen a decrease.
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Weird that it was perfectly timed (and perfectly priced) so that my rates stayed exactly the same at 500 and 1000 hours. Quite the coincidence...I even brought up the 1000 hours with my broker. His response: no change.
 
RussR said:
Anybody looking at insurance over the last several years has to take into account that insurance prices have generally been rising. So maybe you WOULD have seen a decrease, but didn't just due to insurance inflation. So you might still have "relatively" seen a decrease.
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And...it's clear from the conversation not everyone gets that premiums staying the same when you increase your hull value IS a decrease
 
DMD3. said:
For low time pilots wanting to own their own aircraft, it’s a given that insurance will cost more the less time they have logged, and as they build time the insurance rates decrease. However, I believe I read that there’s a threshold where insurance won’t decrease no matter how much time is logged (a pilot with 500 hours and a pilot with 5,000 hours might have the same premium, assuming that was the threshold.

I currently have around 340 hours, with 190 x/c hours and 35 night hours. Could I stand to log some more time, or is this about the best it gets? I’m still at least several years away from ownership, so I’m wondering how much I should try to fly the rental between now and then.

I realize tailwheel or complex aircraft would be expensive to insure with no time logged in those.
Click to expand...

You need to fly regularly to maintain your proficiency no matter whether you own or rent.
I learned to fly in 2016, now have 1100 hrs mostly in my own 172. I have some hours in a 182 and my buddies Cherokee. He just sold it and bought a Arrow. He is a CFII and 20 year Captain in 737s. So I will get some retract time this summer!! He does my IPC and my BFR.
My insurance went down last Aug 2021 plus I raised my hull value. This was after I noticed that they did not indicate I earned my instrument rating the year before. When I pointed out that I received it 250 hrs ago it went down about 100 bucks even though I raised the hull by $30K.

Fly high and fly often and your insurance company will like it.
 
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My rating is still Private. Increasing flight time seems to have no significant effect on the retract or tailwheel either one. Age? That’s something different. The insurance people in their infinite wisdom determined that after hitting 70 that a gear up was imminent and the rate on my retract virtually doubled. I intend to continue to disappoint them by always putting down the gear.
 
RussR said:
Anybody looking at insurance over the last several years has to take into account that insurance prices have generally been rising. So maybe you WOULD have seen a decrease, but didn't just due to insurance inflation. So you might still have "relatively" seen a decrease.
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Yes. My rates for my AA5B have gone from $625 to $800 in the last three years. This is with 1400TT, 500 in make, and an IR. Of course my age has gone up from 60-64, and the insurance market has “hardened”.
 
While not a decrease in rates, there is something that I find important that I'm working towards: I tried to get $1M smooth in liability but was unable to do so (max was $1M/$200k). They said that when I get 500 hours TT I should be able to get the smooth coverage.
 
I did not get any discount when I got my instrument rating but that was when I was flying the Grumman and my rates were already really low. I'm paying out the ass right now because I'm in a retract. I have about 900 hours. No retract time.
 
I got insurance a few years before this madness began*. My rate went down twice, then the madness began. I paid the higher rate one year then shopped around the second year. Went with a different broker and got a lower rate at a higher hull value. You just have to know who to sleep with. I mean, I’m not gay but a lower insurance rate is a lower insurance rate.


*Side note, my initial requirements for getting insurance were essentially non existent. No dual needed, nuthin. They basically said “can you spell ‘mooney’? Great, you’re insured.”
 
my insurance is under 600 a year with 50k hull. I have over 13k hrs. over 750 in make, model, and S/N. when i asked for a quote to add my son who is a student pilot, it went to 1600. so, it's somewhere between 50 and 13k hrs....
 
unsafervguy said:
my insurance is under 600 a year with 50k hull. I have over 13k hrs. over 750 in make, model, and S/N. when i asked for a quote to add my son who is a student pilot, it went to 1600. so, it's somewhere between 50 and 13k hrs....
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FG or retract? If retract, send contact cuz I'm getting ripped off then. I'm in a similar experience/qual demographic as you.
 
When I crossed 100 in type, my insurance failed to go up... maybe went down a little. Recent claim on an old taildragger doesn't help, but that should roll off in a couple short years. Should cross 500 total this year, so it will be interesting to see what next year brings.
 
I’ve never got a rate cut and I’m commercial multi instrument with 1600 hours. In fact my rates have steadily increased.
 
Grum.Man said:
I’ve never got a rate cut and I’m commercial multi instrument with 1600 hours. In fact my rates have steadily increased.
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I noticed the biggest increase when I got the multi rating. :)
 
I dumped the aopa broker after my accident. Thet gave me a lot of incorrect info and weren’t doing much to help at all. Told me my policy was cancelled and I had no coverage when it wasn’t. I got the opposite treatment at https://air-pros.com/ highly recommend. They dug in and got things done when the aopa broker wasn’t doing squat but mislead and confuse me.
 
I believe recent hours has a lot to do with it. In the past I was probably flying my 182 around 60 hours per year. I also did a little freelance flight instructing.

I recently renewed my policy & nearly doubled my hull coverage. I thought my premiums would really increase. It hardly moved the needle. I asked my agent why & he said it's because I'm flying so much more. I think I logged over 400 hours in the last six months. I'm instructing full time now working for an FBO so that seemed to be a major factor to the insurance carrier.

Now instead of just being current I feel proficient.
 
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Salty said:
I dumped the aopa broker after my accident. Thet gave me a lot of incorrect info and weren’t doing much to help at all. Told me my policy was cancelled and I had no coverage when it wasn’t. I got the opposite treatment at https://air-pros.com/ highly recommend. They dug in and got things done when the aopa broker wasn’t doing squat but mislead and confuse me.
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And here I am, after about 10 years with them, thinking about dumping air-pros...if you like your service with them now, you should have been with them 10 years ago when they really kissed your a$$. They have really gone down hill, but maybe they're still the best around, IDK....one man's trash, another man's treasure I guess.
 
I have a commercial ticket and an instrument rating, but when I passed the 2,000 hour mark my insurance rates went up 30%. It turns out flying a taildragger and getting older are the curse of financial death regardless of my sterling record, my ratings and the number of hours I fly each year. It's not time yet, but I can see the time when I'll have to find a cheaper hobby. Flying will be hard to replace, but staying solvent is more important.
 
DMD3. said:
For low time pilots wanting to own their own aircraft, it’s a given that insurance will cost more the less time they have logged, and as they build time the insurance rates decrease. However, I believe I read that there’s a threshold where insurance won’t decrease no matter how much time is logged (a pilot with 500 hours and a pilot with 5,000 hours might have the same premium, assuming that was the threshold.

I currently have around 340 hours, with 190 x/c hours and 35 night hours. Could I stand to log some more time, or is this about the best it gets? I’m still at least several years away from ownership, so I’m wondering how much I should try to fly the rental between now and then.

I realize tailwheel or complex aircraft would be expensive to insure with no time logged in those.
Click to expand...

Every insurance company is different and different rules apply for different aircraft types. For some companies & aircraft types your rate may stop going down after you have 750 total hours and 50 hours in make/model. Some companies give discounts for instrument ratings, some do not. Some might even offer discounts for completing WINGS phases. A good insurance broker should be able to help you navigate the various insurance providers and their requirements/offers.
 
DMD3. said:
Yes I’ve been told that earning those ratings will help. However, it’s not financially worth getting those ratings solely for insurance.
Click to expand...

I'm curious what plane or ownership horizon this could be true for. I assume a very low hull value plane might make the $5k invested in the IR not pay off before 5-10 years? but even on something like a 20K tomahawk, it's gotta be good for a few hundred bucks a year in saving?

It's probably not worth mentioning that the IR improves your VFR flying also. :)
 
Lance F said:
When does insurance rates not improve with hours logged?

Answer: When you get old.
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Yep, except in my case (88, 8000 hours) I just want not in motion but I am forced to also buy inflight liability even though $100k per seat is an ingrown toenail. So I am paying about $2200 for a stated value of $60,000 even though I am hangared. My C-210D is behind the Caddy. So what does age have to do with a parked airplane?
 
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