When do I need to call for practice approaches?

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rookie1255

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rookie1255
We're at an uncontrolled airport. If we wanted to do a full practice approach then would we need to talk to anyone? We wouldn't need vectors and the whole point of flying an entire approach is to be able to do it if communications failed, so it would make sense that no communication is required. However, maybe they would be simulating missed approach instructions or also be helping with traffic, although the safety pilot should be doing that.

What does the brain trust say?
 
I almost always talk to atc, because that increases workload and is more realistic. Besides then you also get radar advisories, and then you cut over to CTAF for that segment before the missed.


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Nah you should be doing it not the safety pilot. Now is the time to have maximum workload, while you're with a safety pilot. Act like it's real single pilot IFR. Train like you will fly.


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GeorgeC said:
in language that vfr pilots can understand.
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For the love of god, this. Do you think a student pilot on a solo is going to know what "Cirrus 123 at ABCDF Procedure Turn Inbound" is supposed to mean? Even an IR pilot isn't going to have all the fixes and their locations memorized for every airport they fly to.
 
rookie1255 said:
We're at an uncontrolled airport. If we wanted to do a full practice approach then would we need to talk to anyone? We wouldn't need vectors and the whole point of flying an entire approach is to be able to do it if communications failed, so it would make sense that no communication is required. However, maybe they would be simulating missed approach instructions or also be helping with traffic, although the safety pilot should be doing that.

What does the brain trust say?
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When I was building time under the hood with a safety pilot we did lots of approaches at uncontrolled fields without talking to ATC. We just announced our intentions and position over the CTAF as usual.
 
dmspilot said:
For the love of god, this. Do you think a student pilot on a solo is going to know what "Cirrus 123 at ABCDF Procedure Turn Inbound" is supposed to mean? Even an IR pilot isn't going to have all the fixes and their locations memorized for every airport they fly to.
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Yes the moment you're on CTAF, you're no longer talking IFR speak... you're no longer talking to atc. Inbound on the VOR Alpha means nothing to most listening. Say it in VFR speak.


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gsengle said:
Nah you should be doing it not the safety pilot. Now is the time to have maximum workload, while you're with a safety pilot. Act like it's real single pilot IFR. Train like you will fly.


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This.
 
I tend to call, if VFR, as a courtesy - though ATC can probably figure it out once you're into the approach; I'd rather not make ATC have to guess what I'm doing.

If I head out specifically to do approaches, I usually file IFR, and negotiate what I want to do. Being on the freq, you get an idea of where things are happening, what's in use, etc. But each to his own - it's legit to blast off VFR with a safety pilot, and never say a word to ATC.
 
It depends for me when truly practicing for the real thing, talk to atc. When playing with equipment, I often don't talk to them.

I am based in an area that is controlled by approach. When practicing vfr, I depart myuncontrolled field and call approach I tel them who and where I am and the tell them what I want to do and what will follow.

For example, I would say (after The Who and where) I would like the RNAV 17 at xyz airport, option, published miss, ils 18 abc airport.

Jim
 
You don't have to contact Approach for anything outside Class B or C, as long as you're VFR (you can do IFR practice approaches, too, which usually means you want a missed). But it's useful.

Around here at least, the difference between a VFR practice approach and a real approach is the phrase "maintain VFR" (and for a couple of specific cases, "cleared into Class B"). The experience is VERY close to reality, so I always use it if possible.

FYI, you sometimes get full procedures "just because." I flew IFR into Oakland today, and got the full ILS 28R approach assigned by ATC. The reason was spacing. Approach wanted to vector a jet in front of me. It sure beats a best forward speed approach hand flown in actual.
 
There are three ways of doing practice approaches.
1. Just fly it VFR without talking to ATC and talk on the CTAF (unicom).
2. Talk to ATC and tell them you want a practice approach.
3. File IFR and have full ATC services.
 
rookie1255 said:
We're at an uncontrolled airport. If we wanted to do a full practice approach then would we need to talk to anyone?
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It is paramount that you announce ALL intentions at every phase of flight around non-towered airports even if you 'think' no one else in the vacinity in the air or on the ground. Example: "podunk traffic Cessna xraycharlie ten miles East initiating a practice GPS approach for runway two-five podunk traffic"
 
citizen5000 said:
It is paramount that you announce ALL intentions at every phase of flight around non-towered airports even if you 'think' no one else in the vacinity in the air or on the ground. Example: "podunk traffic Cessna xraycharlie ten miles East initiating a practice GPS approach for runway two-five podunk traffic"
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1) I think he was asking about atc, not CTAF. He should do both for reasons stated above.

2) absolutely don't use IFR speak on CTAF as you just explained. More than 50% of pilots will have no clue what you're saying.


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gsengle said:
1) I think he was asking about atc, not CTAF. He should do both for reasons stated above.
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The OP did not say if he was practicing in IMC. In VFR conditions the traffic is on CTAF. Otherwise he should already be talking to ATC and simply makes the request at any point in his flight.
 
I think it depends on radar coverage. One airport I can think of is at around 1200 MSL but Center comm is not available until I climb to 7,000. Obviously Center is not going to be much help for traffic advisories.

Alternatively, in a metro area I frequent the Bravo TRACON has radar coverage almost to the ground at a number of uncontrolled satellite airports. I wouldn't think of shooting practice approaches at any of those without requesting a local IFR clearance. I remember one time we got a traffic advisory while we were shooting the approach to runway 12 at one uncontrolled field. Runway 30 had an ILS approach and some idiot was flying it WITHOUT talking to the TRACON. Would we have heard him on the CTAF if we weren't talking to the TRACON? Maybe. Maybe not. In the future ADS-B traffic will help with this, but regardless, guaranteed the controllers would rather be talking to you than seeing some 1200 airplane wandering around in their airspace without adult supervision.
 
citizen5000 said:
The OP did not say if he was practicing in IMC. In VFR conditions the traffic is on CTAF. Otherwise he should already be talking to ATC and simply makes the request at any point in his flight.
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It doesn't matter. Do the same thing.


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airdale said:
I think it depends on radar coverage. One airport I can think of is at around 1200 MSL but Center comm is not available until I climb to 7,000. Obviously Center is not going to be much help for traffic advisories.

Alternatively, in a metro area I frequent the Bravo TRACON has radar coverage almost to the ground at a number of uncontrolled satellite airports. I wouldn't think of shooting practice approaches at any of those without requesting a local IFR clearance. I remember one time we got a traffic advisory while we were shooting the approach to runway 12 at one uncontrolled field. Runway 30 had an ILS approach and some idiot was flying it WITHOUT talking to the TRACON. Would we have heard him on the CTAF if we weren't talking to the TRACON? Maybe. Maybe not. In the future ADS-B traffic will help with this, but regardless, guaranteed the controllers would rather be talking to you than seeing some 1200 airplane wandering around in their airspace without adult supervision.
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I'm not understanding.

VFR aircraft can be anywhere in VMC. Approach doesn't separate IFR and VFR aircraft in Class D or E.

Even in Class C, it's not at all rare to have to deviate off on ILS in VMC due to VFR traffic.

It's perfectly legit to fly an ILS VFR without a clearance, or to fly a straight in.
 
I generally don't call unless part of the approach puts me in B, C, or D airspace. Since the airport I fly out of is under a Bravo shelf, I generally end up doing a few on my own at an outlying airport, then call up for one or two back to home base.
 
rookie1255 said:
We're at an uncontrolled airport. If we wanted to do a full practice approach then would we need to talk to anyone? We wouldn't need vectors and the whole point of flying an entire approach is to be able to do it if communications failed, so it would make sense that no communication is required. However, maybe they would be simulating missed approach instructions or also be helping with traffic, although the safety pilot should be doing that.

What does the brain trust say?
Click to expand...

You can fly it without ATC, but when I'm doing a practice approach, I'll usually use ATC and they'll give traffic advisories around the airport. Having the full traffic picture on an ADS-B display is handy too, but once you're within the airport traffic area, you've got to monitor the CTAF and make position announcements. As long as everyone is paying attention, playing nice and keeping their eyes and ears open, it's good practice and pretty safe to do. I know we're talking practice in VFR, but I once had a NORDO AA5 Cheetah turn base-final in front of me on the final approach segment during an approach in actual IMC 150-200' below the 800' ceiling. That's the idiot you need to look out...some fool illegally flying the pattern when it's IFR.
 
SbestCFII said:
You can fly it without ATC, but when I'm doing a practice approach, I'll usually use ATC and they'll give traffic advisories around the airport. Having the full traffic picture on an ADS-B display is handy too, but once you're within the airport traffic area, you've got to monitor the CTAF and make position announcements. As long as everyone is paying attention, playing nice and keeping their eyes and ears open, it's good practice and pretty safe to do. I know we're talking practice in VFR, but I once had a NORDO AA5 Cheetah turn base-final in front of me on the final approach segment during an approach in actual IMC 150-200' below the 800' ceiling. That's the idiot you need to look out...some fool illegally flying the pattern when it's IFR.
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150 below the ceiling is legal in Class G, at least in daytime, and as long as visibility is at least 1 mile.

Not very smart at an airport with instrument approaches, but not illegal either. TPA is not required by regulation; only the direction of turns is.
 
Whether or not to use ATC services depends on you goals for the flight. Practicing maneuvering on a full approach or just quickly knocking out part of a 6-in 6 to check a box, or working on something else that does not require the realism of including ATC communications, no real reason to use ATC.

OTOH, if the reason to do it without ATC is you don't like it feel comfortable talking to ATC, all the more reason to include ATC in your practice.

I flew out of a busy class D under a class B shelf for 20 years. Now that I am out of a nontowered airport, I'm actually enjoying the freedom to try things out and mess around a bit with a safety pilot and without being "cleared" or "approved" for a practice approach. OTOH, if the bulk of my experience were nontowered in quiet area, I would very much want to practice the communication component.
 
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