what's up with this, ladies????

Denver, just buy yourself a little patch, call it
denverpilot said:
Who gives a crap, FAA is spending debt money. It’s not like they’re actually operating from a balanced budget.

Fiscal theater, pretending they have limited funds other than what they can get a congressman drunk and get him or her to vote for, in new loans.

Worse than security theater when they babble stupidity like the above. I love their BS of “investment” yeah right. What’s FAA’s ROI on investing in FBO monopolies? More money from the owner to the pockets of local politicians? Some nice good gub’mint jobs at a place that otherwise couldn’t maintain its own keep, because aviation has been declining steadily in activity in these washed up places that have to make FBO deals to stay afloat, for decades?

Let me know when their “investment” pays off, so they get some of that grant money back plus interest. LOL LOL LOL. What a crock of ...
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And you think the City of Lexington gives a flip if you show up in you 40 year old airplane complaining about prices. Now that’s funny.
 
Clip4 said:
Denver, just buy yourself a little patch, call it


And you think the City of Lexington gives a flip if you show up in you 40 year old airplane complaining about prices. Now that’s funny.
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Nice partial sentence there.

Never said they did. As usual you missed the point — on purpose since you’re just constantly trolling.

I’m sure they’ll continue to suckle from the free grant money teat to give the FBO a monopoly and hide their rates as long as they can.

Why not? The corruption of the system keeps everybody paid until the loans run out, and they’ll never run out. Freeeeeee money and good gub’mint jobs funded with massive debt.

You ignored the ROI point agains that PR BS that FAA publishes, also. Total BS. When exactly does the FAA get their money back? That’s the definition of “investment”. They love to blatantly lie with words like those.

Im replying because I want to see what you deflect the direct questions and points into again. I’m pretty sure you can troll forever and never answer direct refuting evidence against the stuff you Google up. Not one original thought yet.

Let’s hear it. What’s next?

Recall the issue again, HIDING the fees. Not that the fees exist.

Think real hard now for another side topic. I know you can do it and ignore the point again.
 
denverpilot said:
Nice partial sentence there.

Never said they did. As usual you missed the point — on purpose since you’re just constantly trolling.

I’m sure they’ll continue to suckle from the free grant money teat to give the FBO a monopoly and hide their rates as long as they can.

Why not? The corruption of the system keeps everybody paid until the loans run out, and they’ll never run out. Freeeeeee money and good gub’mint jobs funded with massive debt.

You ignored the ROI point agains that PR BS that FAA publishes, also. Total BS. When exactly does the FAA get their money back? That’s the definition of “investment”. They love to blatantly lie with words like those.

Im replying because I want to see what you deflect the direct questions and points into again. I’m pretty sure you can troll forever and never answer direct refuting evidence against the stuff you Google up. Not one original thought yet.

Let’s hear it. What’s next?

Recall the issue again, HIDING the fees. Not that the fees exist.

Think real hard now for another side topic. I know you can do it and ignore the point again.
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.

Maybe fee disclosure is your only issue, which I seriously doubt.

I have always be able to determine what things cost well in advance of any trip I have made. That includes flying all over the US, Canada, and the Carribean. Sometimes services are costly, but more times than not the services were very inexpensive.

I have never called an FBO and inquired as to the entire cost and had them fail to disclose and get any thing unexpected. Nor have I had an FBO tell me their fees are secret and we can’t tell you.

If you select an airport with a 24 hour control tower, a 24 hour fire dept, a 24 hour police force, and security gates, you are going to pay for it. Grow up.
 
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dell30rb said:
True, fees not disclosed is a big part of it. In this case, KLEX my only alternate would have been to try and sneak over to a dark corner of the ramp and shut down, then try to sneak out a gate somewhere. No reasonable alternates.

I do have an issue with not having any other options except high fees charged by a private business at a publicly funded airport. Exceptions of course for truly busy airports that need to limit traffic due to capacity reasons (JFK, etc...).
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I don't understand this business model at all. Sure, an FBO might make some cash off an unsuspecting pilot, but is that pilot ever going to come back there after being deceived? I just think in the long run it's a poor business model if you're looking for positive word of mouth and repeat business.
 
ScottinIowa said:
but is that pilot ever going to come back there after being deceived?
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Actually, yes. They might. If they need to go to the area and that is one of the few serviceable airports. I often go to an area and have to choose an airport that I might not prefer but I have limited choices. That is why competition is good, but competition requires sufficient demand.
 
hindsight2020 said:
See I have no problem with the pricing. I have a problem with the fact the fees are not disclosed. They know if they had disclosed the entirety of the fees, you would have made other arrangements. That's what makes that particular manifestation of the profit motive unethical imo.

Remind me again why it's legal for undisclosed fee to be legally owed to the service provider when a written service contract is absent?
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But is this any different that current practices in the medical community? Almost 3 months after TKR, I still do not know how much I'll need to pay. Even my vet provides a detailed estimate when the dog went in for surgery. Obviously, I'm less important than my dog.
 
Clip4 said:
...that FBO that you can’t remember the name of invested $11 million in the KLEX facility in 2010...
https://bluegrassairport.com/pr/072810_TACAirR.html
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Well there is a problem...I'm trying to imagine the business model whereby they can recover that investment. And if they are a monopoly, everyone has to pay the exorbitant prices to keep them afloat. These fees are relatively insignificant for aircraft that cost four figures an hour to operate, or are commercial or corporate ops where costs can be passed on to customers. It is a much bigger deal for little GA, to the point it has a significant impact on access. This is why the concern by AOPA and noncommercial GA. At small airports, one FBO is expected. At a larger facility, why not some competition or alternative accommodation for small GA?

Commercial or corporate traffic at our airport don't blink at fees, especially if they get special handling for off-hour arrivals or other local arrangements. Transient GA traffic usually needs only fuel and we don't charge the small guys so they come back. We will be upgrading our terminal, but we won't be spending $11M...not even 1/10th of that. And we won't expect ramp fees to pay for it at the expense of private GA access. The Feds and the states provide significant investment to provide public airport infrastructure. It is I believe important to make this publicly funded infrastructure readily available to all the flying community. Excessively privatizing public goods has a way of making them less available to the public, and can cost the taxpayer more than public ownership. We learned that lesson in the 90s and it took a decade to dig out from the accumulated debt.
 
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Clip4 said:
.

Maybe fee disclosure is your only issue, which I seriously doubt.

I have always be able to determine what things cost well in advance of any trip I have made. That includes flying all over the US, Canada, and the Carribean. Sometimes services are costly, but more times than not the services were very inexpensive.

I have never called an FBO and inquired as to the entire cost and had them fail to disclose and get any thing unexpected. Nor have I had an FBO tell me their fees are secret and we can’t tell you.

If you select an airport with a 24 hour control tower, a 24 hour fire dept, a 24 hour police force, and security gates, you are going to pay for it. Grow up.
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It’s the main issue of the thread, yes. You’ve been the one sending it into other topics, continually.

Like mentioning a bunch of things that aren’t paid for by FBOs as things we need to “grow up” and pay for. FD, PD, and gates?

Those are all taxpayer funded, not by ramp fees, nearly everywhere. Already paid for. Try again.

And having had a bit to think about it, you posted back-to-back these gems...

- The FAA wants airports and FBOs to be self-sustaining.
- The idiots at a real world FBO who hid fees from a pilot here, spent $11M on a lounge.

Hmmm. What exactly is self-sustaining about that? Sounds more like a monopoly who knows they can charge whatever they like, to me.

Spending $11M on an FBO is insane if they had to make a profit on anything other than sales of actual services. It’s a lobby, four toilets, a coffee pot, some low priced fake leather furniture, and if they’re really fancy, a fake fireplace. And a TV from WalMart.

Of course they need piles of fees, if they were stupid enough to put $11M into an FBO. Love to see the numbers that show that to be “self-sustaining”.
 
denverpilot said:
It’s the main issue of the thread, yes. You’ve been the one sending it into other topics, continually.

Like mentioning a bunch of things that aren’t paid for by FBOs as things we need to “grow up” and pay for. FD, PD, and gates?

Those are all taxpayer funded, not by ramp fees, nearly everywhere. Already paid for. Try again.

And having had a bit to think about it, you posted back-to-back these gems...

- The FAA wants airports and FBOs to be self-sustaining.
- The idiots at a real world FBO who hid fees from a pilot here, spent $11M on a lounge.

Hmmm. What exactly is self-sustaining about that? Sounds more like a monopoly who knows they can charge whatever they like, to me.

Spending $11M on an FBO is insane if they had to make a profit on anything other than sales of actual services. It’s a lobby, four toilets, a coffee pot, some low priced fake leather furniture, and if they’re really fancy, a fake fireplace. And a TV from WalMart.

Of course they need piles of fees, if they were stupid enough to put $11M into an FBO. Love to see the numbers that show that to be “self-sustaining”.
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Maybe insane to you, but the high rollers the city wants to attract want an $11M FBO. They are not going to run an airport to the standards of a guy flying 40 year old airplane that thinks $50 is a lot of money. That is life my friend and the AOPA is not going to change that. So get used to it, go elsewhere, or complain.
 
hindsight2020 said:
See I have no problem with the pricing. I have a problem with the fact the fees are not disclosed. They know if they had disclosed the entirety of the fees, you would have made other arrangements. That's what makes that particular manifestation of the profit motive unethical imo.

Remind me again why it's legal for undisclosed fee to be legally owed to the service provider when a written service contract is absent?
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Saying the same thing: even if she would have disclosed those fees when he originally asked and then he elected to load right back up and reposition to another airport deciding the fees were too high, he would have been charged anyway. They can tell you whatever they want and then charge you something completely different; no one is or can hold them accountable because there’s no written/posted “contract.”
 
Banjo33 said:
Saying the same thing: even if she would have disclosed those fees when he originally asked and then he elected to load right back up and reposition to another airport deciding the fees were too high, he would have been charged anyway. They can tell you whatever they want and then charge you something completely different; no one is or can hold them accountable because there’s no written/posted “contract.”
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True for the unannounced case but i disagree with your latter comment. I would say if one had it on email form before arriving and they switched it on you, you'd have a good case for not paying the fee in dispute. Consumer Laws in America are more pro business than I like, but even that situation is covered by consumer disclosure laws pretty clearly. That's text book bait and switch, and for a business model that treats the act of landing as services rendered (rent seeking BS afaic), it's tantamount to entrapment.
 
That’s an example of the “written” form I was referring to along with posting on their website. However, like the other poster, I too have called an FBO and been mis-quoted the fees that I was to be charged. Their reply when I disputed it with the lady at the desk was “sorry, but that’s our fees.” They really could care less.
 
Banjo33 said:
That’s an example of the “written” form I was referring to along with posting on their website. However, like the other poster, I too have called an FBO and been mis-quoted the fees that I was to be charged. Their reply when I disputed it with the lady at the desk was “sorry, but that’s our fees.” They really could care less.
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I know it matters not, but that kind of unethical/bad faith behavior has no place in my life. I have cut patronage from one FBO as result of that kind of shenanigans. $170 dollars for a tire air add on a single tire, where they actually didn't even actually add air (as confided by the line guy who observed the drive-by). As a result, I gladly drive the extra 30 minutes to my destination when in Oklahoma City. I recognize it doesn't change their calculus, but there's more to life than money for me. Principles matter. I mean, for a piddly "40 year old airplane", "poor pilot club", "<insert classist FBO shill trope here>" member of the proletariat. :rolleyes:
 
Word is Signature gives the group money. Can't bit the hand that feeds ya now...
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe insane to you, but the high rollers the city wants to attract want an $11M FBO. They are not going to run an airport to the standards of a guy flying 40 year old airplane that thinks $50 is a lot of money. That is life my friend and the AOPA is not going to change that. So get used to it, go elsewhere, or complain.
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They really don’t. Plenty of high rollers rolling through other private hangars all over the place who just want their expensive cars kept in the hangar and someone to wash it and carefully bring it directly to the aircraft so they can walk off the airplane and leave in privacy.

What you probably have if you have a crowd that wants an $11M hangar is the much cheaper once a year bizjet rental crowd, not those who actually own and use the things weekly or daily, and the posers want to walk through a fancy building on the way to their Maxima that sat in the snow in the parking lot for a week.

I can’t think of a single customer of our MANY bizjet operations at KAPA who feels any desires to even be inside the FBO other than to take a ****. Maybe. And they probably did that on the airplane lav unless it was a Citation smaller than the X or a King Air. LOL.

Very few of the people who really use their jets give a rats ass about a fancy pilot lounge for $11M. That’s all the FBO is to them. Somewhere for their crew to sit and wait on their schedule. If the food and the coffee and drinks are on the airplane and the car is pulled straight to the aircraft and the crew is ready to depart, they never see the place.

Any bright FBO manager can make the walkway through and the areas the passengers would see and the bathrooms decent for well less than $11M.

But we didn’t say these companies were particularly bright. An $11M renovation on a hangar building is throwing away a lot of money they’ll never in a million years make back when the next recession hits and the rental jets get parked again.

People don’t fly on bizjets because of fancy FBOs. They fly on bizjets to leave on their own schedule, no TSA, and no standing in line with crowds mooing to get through the cattle gates to an airliner. And to have their cars brought right up to the airplane.

The only ones who do, are the limited number of posers who charter once a year if that much, and want a selfie from their selfie stick for their private jet flight. Those customers disappear every recession.

It’s again back to what I said before. The FBOs pulling this stuff are usually in some armpit nobody wants to fly to, and can’t turn a profit without secret fees. Any busy bizjet FBO more than makes the rent payments on the building from fuel flowage and the buck a gallon most places charge for full service. Easily.
 
GLMS_NC said:
Word is Signature gives the group money. Can't bit the hand that feeds ya now...
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Told ya. Had to be something like that. Follow the money...

I’m still sure the leadership didn’t ask the membership what they wanted, either. And won’t.
 
murphey said:
But is this any different that current practices in the medical community? Almost 3 months after TKR, I still do not know how much I'll need to pay. Even my vet provides a detailed estimate when the dog went in for surgery. Obviously, I'm less important than my dog.
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I wonder how many people here think that healthcare is a model of how businesses should be run? :rofl:
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe insane to you, but the high rollers the city wants to attract want an $11M FBO.
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If the high rollers want an eleven-million-dollar FBO, then they should be the ones to pay for it.
 
I was in a communications Union (CWA). Paid my dues. They took my money and supported Democratic Candidates with it. Wasn't surprised when I found out, but didn't agree with it. Subsequently quit... Point being, the members probably didn't vote for the action taken... Probably doesn't even represent the majority's position. Just a bunch of hacks at the top think they know more than the rank and file and feel they have the right to speak on their behalf.
 
My last trip out East I did inquire about the costs I would incur at the airports I visited. I got cogent and accurate information. Had there been usurious financial imprecations I would have gone elsewhere. As it was I was treated very nicely, and didn't mind paying to have my airplane somewhere I'd pay to park a car.
 
When I am going to a new airport, especially if I plan to spend the night, I email them several days in advance. I usually get an email reply within a few days outlining the fee policies. I have never had them renege on those quoted prices. One time a few years ago, there was a charge that was not mentioned in the email. I told the CSR and she apologized and removed the charge. I was ready to show the email, but it wasn't necessary. I also check airnav for comments that might be a red flag. Even when I see negative comments, I usually get good service. I think most FBOs try to do a good job to earn their fees. Even the Signatures and the MillionAires I have been to. But just like any industry, there are going to be a few bad apples and a few CSRs with a bad attitude or maybe just a bad day.
 
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