What's the scrap value of a Traumahawk?

bigred177

bigred177

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I am curious on what the true "scrap value" is on a 1978 Traumahawk. I have come across one that is nearing its 11,000 hr limit for sale. Unfortunately it also has a 2700 hr engine in it.

My thought was to buy it with a fresh annual and fly it as hard as I possibly could for one year. Then at the next annual I would sell what I could and scrap the rest. Obviously this only works if I can buy it for a VERY good price. It is a fairly nice looking airplane for a used up ex-trainer; my only concern is the engine making it another 900hrs or so. I for sure don't want to pay to put a new engine on a plane with 900hrs left to live. I don't know what the market is for a rebuilt 0-235 but I imagine I wouldn't be getting my rebuilt money back.

What do you guys think?
 
bigred177 said:
I am curious on what the true "scrap value" is on a 1978 Traumahawk. I have come across one that is nearing its 11,000 hr limit for sale. Unfortunately it also has a 2700 hr engine in it.

My thought was to buy it with a fresh annual and fly it as hard as I possibly could for one year. Then at the next annual I would sell what I could and scrap the rest. Obviously this only works if I can buy it for a VERY good price. It is a fairly nice looking airplane for a used up ex-trainer; my only concern is the engine making it another 900hrs or so. I for sure don't want to pay to put a new engine on a plane with 900hrs left to live. I don't know what the market is for a rebuilt 0-235 but I imagine I wouldn't be getting my rebuilt money back.

What do you guys think?
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There is a reason it's such a good deal.

Timed out airframe, timed out engine...

Unless you are a Tomahawk collector and restorerer and you are independently wealthy, well....

Um, no.
 
How much is it? I mean there are a lot of pretty airworthy experimental that can be had for little money with decent airframes AND engines.
 
The value is going to be in the radios and the engine core, if there is any. IMHO you'd be doing the owner a favor by taking it off his hands, unless he's just retired and likes selling used tomahawk parts on eBay. I'm going to vote "more trouble than it's worth". I can't see more than $2-3K in value if you just have to have it.
 
That's what I'm trying to determine. He is asking $11k for it, but I would only offer what I felt I could get back out of it in parts or scrap.

The thing that draws me to this plane over most EAB planes in this range is its two-seat capability. I like the extra room when solo and the ability to carry someone small. Most of the planes I see are only one holers (mostly fly-babies).
 
The radio appears to just be a KX-170b and I don't know of anyone putting a o-235 into anything anymore. Even planes that were designed for them have O-320s at a minimum.
 
Any 0-235 at 2700 hours, is living on borrowed time, another 900 ? I seriously doubt it.
 
bigred177 said:
That's what I'm trying to determine. He is asking $11k for it, but I would only offer what I felt I could get back out of it in parts or scrap.

The thing that draws me to this plane over most EAB planes in this range is its two-seat capability. I like the extra room when solo and the ability to carry someone small. Most of the planes I see are only one holers (mostly fly-babies).
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Does he have dual GTN750s in it? or maybe 10K in cash hiding under the seat that comes with it?


Would you like me to point you at an airworthy, well maintained, but ugly 1959 Cessna 150 with a good engine and airframe?

Saw this the other day too if you're in the market for a plane like that http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72033&view=unread#unread
 
Tom-D said:
Any 0-235 at 2700 hours, is living on borrowed time, another 900 ? I seriously doubt it.
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That is what I'm thinking as well. The only real thing that makes me consider it is that, as a flight school plane, it got regular use. I hear the occasional story about engines lasting way past TBO just because they get used often.
 
I wouldn't expect to get an additional 5 hours of flying out of it without significant work. If you want something airworthy for that price then yes, you're probably going to be looking at a single seater Flybaby or such. But at least it'll be airworthy and you'll get some use out of it. Or you might not, it's always a crap shoot.
 
bartmc said:
Does he have dual GTN750s in it? or maybe 10K in cash hiding under the seat that comes with it?


Would you like me to point you at an airworthy, well maintained, but ugly 1959 Cessna 150 with a good engine and airframe?

Saw this the other day too if you're in the market for a plane like that http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72033&view=unread#unread
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I'm not a huge fan of 150s. I'm not a small guy and feel a little squished when I get into one. That's one thing I do like about the Piper, I don't feel scrunched into it. Not saying I wouldn't be interested, just stating my preference :).

That Sundowner is interesting, but it seems like I would need to do significant work on it before it would be flyable. Plus it's quite a ways from me so I wouldn't be able to do the work myself. Can you get a ferry permit with the oil pump AD?
 
jesse said:
I wouldn't expect to get an additional 5 hours of flying out of it without significant work. If you want something airworthy for that price then yes, you're probably going to be looking at a single seater Flybaby or such. But at least it'll be airworthy and you'll get some use out of it. Or you might not, it's always a crap shoot.
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You're not going to get a nice one, but older Cessna 150s with mid time engines and WWII era gauges go in that price range. I just opened up barnstormers and clicked on Cessna 150, this was on the first page. http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_721854_Reduced.html
 
The thing is, I'm not looking for a plane like this to keep for a long time. I was thinking of just buying it to fly and then scrap. If I'm going to buy a plane to hang on to, I might as well just wait until I can afford something I can do something with.
 
bigred177 said:
The thing is, I'm not looking for a plane like this to keep for a long time. I was thinking of just buying it to fly and then scrap. If I'm going to buy a plane to hang on to, I might as well just wait until I can afford something I can do something with.
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Get a 1959 Cessna 150 with some time left on the engine.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_704789_59+Cessna+150.html

I can point you to one not officially on the market if you want, I think 11K will buy it, but that's just my suspicion.

Probably a lot better scrap investment (if there is such a thing) than a Traumahawk. You can't spit at an airport without hitting 3 of them, someone will need parts for one. Plus the 0-200 is a sought after engine for all sorts of applications and hell those old fastback 150s still put a twinkle in some peoples eyes. You might find someone to take the whole thing off your hands and restore it for not much of a loss.
 
bigred177 said:
That is what I'm thinking as well. The only real thing that makes me consider it is that, as a flight school plane, it got regular use. I hear the occasional story about engines lasting way past TBO just because they get used often.
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How many times do you want to repair it, you never need to overhaul it.
 
Today I found a C-150 advertised at 18k good radios, good engine times, buy it fly it till you sell it and move on.

great many pilots have done that.
 
The kit to fix the wing life limit, $4000 from Sterling. I don't know how much labor additional, but I bet it wouldn't be insignificant. Add $12,000 for overhauling the O-235.
So even if your plane was FREE, you'd be spending close to $20,000 and it would still be a crap tommy with crap radios.
 
bigred177 said:
That's what I'm trying to determine. He is asking $11k for it, but I would only offer what I felt I could get back out of it in parts or scrap.

The thing that draws me to this plane over most EAB planes in this range is its two-seat capability. I like the extra room when solo and the ability to carry someone small. Most of the planes I see are only one holers (mostly fly-babies).
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You can get a decent Pietenpol Air Camper for around $11K and they have two seats.

Otherwise, if you look around, you could probably find better beater 120s, 140s or 150s for under $15k that would serve you better than that Traumahawk.
 
bigred177 said:
That is what I'm thinking as well. The only real thing that makes me consider it is that, as a flight school plane, it got regular use. I hear the occasional story about engines lasting way past TBO just because they get used often.
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Isn't it already waaaaay past TBO?? Do you seriously think there's a chance of doubling the overage again??
 
bigred177 said:
That is what I'm thinking as well. The only real thing that makes me consider it is that, as a flight school plane, it got regular use. I hear the occasional story about engines lasting way past TBO just because they get used often.
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If it is currently a flight school airplane getting regular use.....don't you think they would want to keep flying it as long as they could if the engine had any more time on it?

I suspect they are trying to sell it now for a reason.
 
Seems like you're going under the assumption that this plane is perfectly functional, with everything working now and it will stay that way for the next 900 hours. All you have to do is put gas and oil in it, right?:no:

It's an old machine. If it doesn't fail outright sometime in it's near future, it will nickel and dime you to death. So, have you set a dollar amount where you'll say enough is enough and pull the plug on life support? How much are you willing to put into this plane before you scrap it? This needs to be you primary consideration.
 
If he were to rent a similar plane, he would be paying about $40/hr dry for the rental.

Over 900 hours that is 36k.

Add up your costs to buy and fly it for however many years (minus fuel), add what you can get back from the plane (maybe 2-4k) and see if you come out at less than 36k.

Its only 300 hours over TBO (2400 hrs for a O-235) and if it has been flying 3-400 hours per year, and passes all the pre-buy checks, its probably got some life left in it. Though if I were buying it, I would make sure to plan for (at least) a top overhaul
 
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dell30rb said:
Its only 300 hours over TBO (2400 hrs for a O-235) and if it has been flying 3-400 hours per year, and passes all the pre-buy checks, its probably got some life left in it. Though if I were buying it, I would make sure to plan for (at least) a top overhaul
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So basically, with other cheap options out there....only buy this one if you just REALLY LOVE Tomahawks.
 
Still, nobody answered what the scrap value is. The only relevant comment was about the value of radios and engine core, but even that one implied the price, did not name it. With people stealing every piece of metal that's not bolted down, and many that are, surely there has to be value in a pile of aluminum. Probably more than $500! What is it?
 
zaitcev said:
Still, nobody answered what the scrap value is. The only relevant comment was about the value of radios and engine core, but even that one implied the price, did not name it. With people stealing every piece of metal that's not bolted down, and many that are, surely there has to be value in a pile of aluminum. Probably more than $500! What is it?
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The problem is that scrap aluminum is not that valuable these days (not like it used to be). No one has answered it because we are all trying to talk him out of what appears to be big expensive headache. What is he going to do? Break it up himself? I am guessing that the cost of scrapping the hull is not worth the time and cost associated to do it unless he his willing and able to break it up and haul it off himself.
 
Basically he needs to find out the core value of the engine, the prop and any resale of the avionics. KX-170=$0 Then he needs to find out what the local scrap price is for aluminum per pound and calculate that. After that, I would tack on a few hundred extra for parts you can sell to other Tommy owners. What ever that total number is, is what I would try to buy it for.

If your time is really valuable to you, you'll have to add on extra thousands of deduction to account for all the time and labor of disposal. You could consider this time and labor sort of the payment for flying the plane for whatever time it gives you if you like.

Again though, you need to factor in how much you are willing to spend on this plane above the purchase price.
 
Quick googling shows scrap aluminum prices as less than $1/lb. Seems that it would probably not be worth it.
 
This is what I'm thinking too. I thought it would be a fun idea to think about. I'll keep the ad to see if I can get it cheap enough down the road. at 11k I doubt it sells. I do have the equipment to move the airframe with the wings off, and I could probably figure out how to take the wings off (especially if I'm not trying to save anything. Maybe a little sawzall time? :) ).

But, it looks like Al is around $.70/lb at my local scrapyard so I wouldn't make much there. The flight school has a fleet of Tomahawks they still use. Maybe I could sell them a number of parts. We'll see what it looks like after the plane has been on the market for awhile.

What is the market in the expiremental world for a 125hp O-235? If I had to top it I would definitely bump the HP up.

If I can't do anything with this plane I'm going to continue to wait until I can get something like a RV or Mooney. I like to go places too much to spend money on a C-150.
 
bigred177 said:
What is the market in the expiremental world for a 125hp O-235?
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You can put a O-235 into an RV-9, CH-701, CH-750, CH-650, and probably other models in the LSA experimental realm.

So there is a market for used ones in that world.
 
OK if its flyable with a fresh annual, your shop, not his, I think it's worth $4-5K to fly for a year or two and scrap it out for $1-2000.00 Probably one of those things that never gets sold, unless a sucker comes along or an estate sells it.:dunno: Too much downside and not enough upside with it, in other words it has zero redeeming qualities.:rolleyes:
 
BigRed

You are welcome to join the Tomahawk forum and pose your question there.
Under the file section, there is a list of scrap yards that sell Tomahawk parts. They might be able to give you an idea how much parts are worth.

900 hours on the wings: that is a lot of flying at the AVG of 40 hours per year.
Engine: making metal, oil use, compressions?
AD ongoing: trim springs and rudder hinge brackets at 5000 hours IIRC.

There is no provision to install a O-320 in a Tomahawk. Won't do your useful load any good anyway. A 125 hp (STC) in this plane is sure safer: climb performance and resilience to carb ice.
 
Scrap value will be about $5000, a bit more if the engine is a usable core. The aluminum recycling places hate airplanes and give very little for them.
 
Henning said:
Scrap value will be about $5000, a bit more if the engine is a usable core. The aluminum recycling places hate airplanes and give very little for them.
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I don't think it is even that high. A timed-out traumahawk won't be worth more than $2000 nor will the O-235 core. But even if I buy the optomistic $5000 value, and he flies it 100 hours in the course of the year before the next annual, he's going to be paying $60/hour for the thing ever before he puts fuel in it, or pays for insurance, or tie-down, etc... and hoping that nothing goes wrong.

Further, he's stuck paying tiedown until he can get the rotting hulk sawed up and shipped somewhere else.

$60/hr acquisition costs plus $35/hr fuel plus another $18 for insurance/tiedown....looks like he's spending over $110/hr for a tommy rental
if NOTHING GOES WRONG.

Did a little googling and you can rent Tommy's for $85/hour
 
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flyingron said:
I don't think it is even that high. A timed-out traumahawk won't be worth more than $2000 nor will the O-235 core. But even if I buy the optomistic $5000 value, and he flies it 100 hours in the course of the year before the next annual, he's going to be paying $60/hour for the thing ever before he puts fuel in it, or pays for insurance, or tie-down, etc... and hoping that nothing goes wrong.

Further, he's stuck paying tiedown until he can get the rotting hulk sawed up and shipped somewhere else.

$60/hr acquisition costs plus $35/hr fuel plus another $18 for insurance/tiedown....looks like he's spending over $110/hr for a tommy rental
if NOTHING GOES WRONG.

Did a little googling and you can rent Tommy's for $85/hour
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That's expensive. 76,500 for 900 hours.

If I had my own plane i'd rack up about 200 hours per year(honestly probably more than that). So 4.5 years

Lets say he buys it for 9000. Lets say he can sell it for $3500. That's 5,500. Over 900 hours $6.10 per hour

Maintenance... $1700 per year plus maybe $3500 for cylinders if it needs them. $12.40 per hour over 900 hrs

Insurance - Lets go with 1200 for the first year and $900 per year after that. $5 per hour

Tie down - At my airport $40 per month. $2.5 per hour

Fuel - Not renting? 5gph @ 6 bucks a gallon is 27.50 / hour.

Add em up $53.50 per hour. A savings of almost 30k
 
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Where is 900 hours a year coming from? The thing needs to pass annual next year.
 
A used up Tomahawk is worth a $5000 gamble, no more, and only if walking away from it wouldn't hurt me.
 
Henning said:
Where is 900 hours a year coming from? The thing needs to pass annual next year.
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If your comment is directed at my post, I think you mis-read it.

The guy said he wanted to fly it 900 hours and then sell it. I figured it would take him around 4.5 years to do it so I broke down the costs over 4.5 years and 900 hours.
 
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