What's the deal with the Navy trainers?

Nauga designed it...its his fault.:D
 
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Hmmm, a 'lack of oxygen in your oxygen system' could likely cause some problems!
 
Since OBOGS is a system that generates O2 using a mechanical process that filters bleed air, there are any number of reasons why the system might not be producing enough (or good-enough) oxygen.

Mechanical things break, and there are failure modes that pop up over time that engineers don't foresee when they're designing and building stuff...
 
Hacker said:
Mechanical things break, and there are failure modes that pop up over time that engineers don't foresee when they're designing and building stuff...
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Oh boy, get ready for a s#%t storm from the "it works on paper" crowd :yikes:
 
Hacker said:
Since OBOGS is a system that generates O2 using a mechanical process that filters bleed air, there are any number of reasons why the system might not be producing enough (or good-enough) oxygen.

Mechanical things break, and there are failure modes that pop up over time that engineers don't foresee when they're designing and building stuff...
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Really? How long have you been an engineer?
 
Hacker said:
Rather than an ad hominem attack, what is your counterpoint to what I posted?
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Attack? No, it was asking for your credentials to make a claim like that.
 
paflyer said:
Attack? No, it was asking for your credentials to make a claim like that.
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I wasn't aware that I had to have been an engineer to make a claim that the people who design and build things are not omniscient and cannot foresee every possible potential failure mode over time.
 
Hacker said:
I wasn't aware that I had to have been an engineer to make a claim that the people who design and build things are not omniscient and cannot foresee every possible potential failure mode over time.
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OK, so not an engineer and not been in product meetings where the engineer points to many reasons why the thing shouldn't be launched because of cost/schedule compromises or outright flaws in the design and then being overruled by the suits. And getting that "Nervous Nelly Naysayer" reputation is great for promotions.
 
Okay, whatever. It wasn't intended as a slight to anyone. I apologize for not conforming to the discussion standards of PoA, which apparently limit mentioning engineers only to those who are trained and experienced engineers.

I didn't think it was a very controversial opinion to say, "mechanical things break, and sometimes in unexpected ways" regarding this situation with the T-45.
 
I've been an engineer (OK software) and have endured many product meetings where things got shipped that shouldn't. But I've also had plenty of things that happened in the field that I never anticipated. If you haven't, I'd guess you haven't built that many systems. Or you're God..
 
This thread went full retard quite early. I don't know where the engineer umbrage is coming from personally. As @Hacker pointed out, these things are not all created equal. Implementation of OBOGS systems vary with airframes, and failure modes pop up from time to time.

I flew the T-6A for 1000 hours in the USAF side. OBOGS jet. The Navy got the T-6B and much later than the AF had been flying the As. So far it doesn't look like they're having issues compared to the 45s. Likewise we don't know to what degree the airframes are being maintained in the NAVY compared to the USAF. To be clear, both use bottom of the barrel, local economy jobs program civil service or contract "talent" to staff the maintenance shops at the grunt level.

I was never fond of the magic of OBOGS in the T-6, but thankfully I never experienced a canister failure dumping that dust all over my throat. Of course I won't know until later in life if I indeed breathed that crap in imperceptible quantities to my body's allergic trigger point, and whether it will have shortened my life span. "Thank you for my service" am I right?

I'm back now in the T-38 where we breath that craptastic ol school LOX bottle that leaks all the time and leaves you stranded off station. But since I'm old school like that, at least I know the failure modes of that thing. The devil I know is much preferred to the devil I don't know.

In the case of the Raptor, that had to do with the fact the OBOGS could not concentrate enough volume to make decent oxygen at the bozosphere level. Many 22 drivers refused to fly the thing for a while. So this isn't just a slight to the NAVY.

I commend the instructor cadre for taking a stand though; we are responsible for these kids live's when they don't have enough experience to know better.
 
Engineers are very interested in how things break. Thats how they learn to make them so they don't break. We've all designed things that have broken. We've all broken things. Things do break. In fact, EVERYTHING put together sooner or later falls apart. Its a law of the universe.
 
MassPilot said:
I'm an engineer and I spend quite a bit of time trying to break things for this purpose.
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I'm an engineer and see little reason to wait for things to break. We take apart things that are perfectly functional to see how they work. Of course once that objective has been met there is little incentive to waste time putting anything back together again - nothing to be learned from that. ;)

I think it started when I took apart the vacuum cleaner. I don't think Mom ever forgave me for leaving behind a pile of parts in the living room...:rolleyes:
 
Hacker said:
Since OBOGS is a system that generates O2 using a mechanical process that filters bleed air, there are any number of reasons why the system might not be producing enough (or good-enough) oxygen.

Mechanical things break, and there are failure modes that pop up over time that engineers don't foresee when they're designing and building stuff...
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Could it be a bleed air leak (bad O-rings possibly) in the filtration system and they're whiffing exhaust fumes? :dunno:
 
GRG55 said:
I'm an engineer and see little reason to wait for things to break. We take apart things that are perfectly functional to see how they work. Of course once that objective has been met there is little incentive to waste time putting anything back together again - nothing to be learned from that. ;)

I think it started when I took apart the vacuum cleaner. I don't think Mom ever forgave me for leaving behind a pile of parts in the living room...:rolleyes:
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Seems like the engineers that design BMWs have that same exact mentality...
Engineer: "Sure, we can assemble it from scratch at the factory very easily"....
Other Guy: "But what about when you have to replace the water pump?".....
Engineer: "No, problem, I took it apart after it was assembled. You can get that part out just fine."
Other Guy: "What about putting it back together?"
Engineer: "Mehh, I didn't get that far..."

:-D
 
vkhosid said:
Seems like the engineers that design BMWs have that same exact mentality...
Engineer: "Sure, we can assemble it from scratch at the factory very easily"....
Other Guy: "But what about when you have to replace the water pump?".....
Engineer: "No, problem, I took it apart after it was assembled. You can get that part out just fine."
Other Guy: "What about putting it back together?"
Engineer: "Mehh, I didn't get that far..."

:-D
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LOL. Partner of mine experienced that with his Cayenne Turbo. Developed a leak (oil cooler I think). Involved $11,000 of repairs to take apart the front of the car and remove the engine to get at the offending part, underneath. The dealer did manage to put it all together again, however.
 
Navy beans.....leads to flatulence.....equals bad day flying...?
 
coloradobluesky said:
Engineers are very interested in how things break. Thats how they learn to make them so they don't break. We've all designed things that have broken. We've all broken things. Things do break. In fact, EVERYTHING put together sooner or later falls apart. Its a law of the universe.
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Not necessarily... that theory doesn't explain how random dust forms into clumps, eventually into stars with systems of repeated patterns all across the universe. Entropy? Not always. Some things don't fall apart. Sometimes they fall together.
 
vkhosid said:
Seems like the engineers that design BMWs have that same exact mentality...
Engineer: "Sure, we can assemble it from scratch at the factory very easily"....
Other Guy: "But what about when you have to replace the water pump?".....
Engineer: "No, problem, I took it apart after it was assembled. You can get that part out just fine."
Other Guy: "What about putting it back together?"
Engineer: "Mehh, I didn't get that far..."

:-D
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Someone has never changed a water pump on a BMW. Easiest one I ever did, hands down.
 
jsstevens said:
But I've also had plenty of things that happened in the field that I never anticipated.
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I find this to be very common with software/firmware. Lousy exception handling. Sloppy programming: "ship it now, fix it later."
 
Come on folks. Engineers do not design things to break. That is pure nonsense! They just design things to be hard to replace when they do fail. I have scarred knuckles to prove it!
 
Engineers do the best they can within the confines of time and fiscal constraints imposed upon them by management.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Come on folks. Engineers do not design things to break. That is pure nonsense! They just design things to be hard to replace when they do fail. I have scarred knuckles to prove it!
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My very first computer class lecture started of with something like the following...
"When Henry Ford designed the Model T he eyeball engineered it, as a result some parts failed relatively quickly and others are still out in the back pasture perfectly serviceable. Now days cars are designed using numerical analysis thanks to computers most parts are designed with a specific life span in mind, as a result modern car tend to start falling apart all at once."

Brian
 
Bill Jennings said:
Engineers do the best they can within the confines of time and fiscal constraints imposed upon them by management.
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I agree, but that doesn't mean that there aren't thing that they don't/can't foresee while they are designing/building stuff. If it did, that would mean that nothing would ever have a "design flaw."

This is the quote which paflyer took exception to:

"there are failure modes that pop up over time that engineers don't foresee when they're designing and building stuff..."

That's not a true statement? All engineers foresee every failure mode imaginable? Please...

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."

I'm nominating paflyer for "Thinnest Skin of the Day" award. ;)
 
paflyer said:
I find this to be very common with software/firmware. Lousy exception handling. Sloppy programming: "ship it now, fix it later."
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So the only reason I've had this experience is because I'm lousy at writing code? Really? I guess you're omniscient then...
 
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