What's the deal with CFII's that don't want to fly IMC?

Princesspilot206

Princesspilot206

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Princesspilot
I'm feeling pretty defeated here. 5 months now my IFR rating has been dragging out as I am barely in Stage III. Everytime it comes to doing a xcountry and it's IMC the instructor is "sick." My checkride is now looking like its going to be mid-April. Want to make a sign out of cardboard that says,"Please fly IMC with me" and stand out in front of the airport. *sad face*
 
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My CFII said thunderstorms and ice are the 2 biggest things that scare him. Any of that in your area?
 
Some will, some won’t, at least until the late stages and I can’t really blame them. Flying in IMC is a whole different game and should largely be based on the students experience level, proficiency, aircraft equipment etc. That said, your instructor should possess the ability to state their personal minimums and rationale and not just play sick when the occasion comes around.
 
What I've always run into is it's hard to find weather that's bad enough to make logable approaches but also not down to near minimums with no threat of convective/icing conditions. To be clear, such conditions do happen- they happen all the time but getting that to line up with your schedule and the CFI's schedule just doesn't work out. At least it didn't for me. We did finally get IMC of a sort during my training basically just by filing at the same altitude as a relatively thick scattered layer and popping in/out for a bit. That was the best I was able to pull off.
 
I'm not a CFII or even IR yet. But there's less margin for error on an IFR flight plan in IMC, which means less letting the student make and correct her own mistakes. Maybe that's part of it. But why not ask them?
 
Not defending your CFI but some weather you should just avoid. What kind of WX is he avoiding?

My CFI was downright giddy when my long training dual flight was IFR which got us almost the entire flight in the soup and 3 real approaches. That was a valuable lesson. So I completely understand your feelings.
 
Three issues:

1. Your CFI has very little experience in IMC because his instructor didn’t take home into IMC and all he has done is instruct.

2. The flight plan is under his name and a screw up means he is liable for an enforcement.

3. You really aren’t as sharp as you believe and you are not ready. CFI knows once you are IMC he is going to have to take the plane and fly the lesson.
 
Clip4 said:
Three issues:

1. Your CFI has very little experience in IMC because his instructor didn’t take home into IMC and all he has done is instruct.

2. The flight plan is under his name and a screw up means he is liable for an enforcement.

3. You really aren’t as sharp as you believe and you are not ready. CFI knows once you are IMC he is going to have to take the plane and fly the lesson.
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I consider #3 to be negotiable. I completely agree with #1, #2 is always up for debate. In colorado we have 2 types of IMC - fog and everything else. During an IFR lesson (fantastically clear & sunny) all of a sudden the runway was engulfed in fog. You could see the lights, barely see the runway. The CFII completely panicked. His problem, not mine. I took off the foggles, made one of my best landings ever. Never flew with that CFII again.
 
The instrument rating exposes you to weather that you never consider when limited to VMC. It takes a lot more thinking to decide when to fly and when not to.

But the answer to your question rests with the instructor that "doesn't want to fly in IMC', not a group of other pilots that can only guess.
 
Actually saw some of that working nights in the Army at Ft Rucker. Even some of the most salty IPs wouldn’t take their students in the clouds at night. A few of us had no problems doing it. You have an IFR ticket, an aircraft that’s equipped and weather that’s within reg limits, go get that student the experience. Had a few students say it was the best learning experience as far as confidence in their abilities, in all of flight school.
 
It wasn't worth it for me to stay instrument current just to fly with an instrument student once every 3 months. That said, I was always honest with them why I didn't fly in IMC.
 
As others have said IMC is very different than VMC with foggles. When I did my IFR training, my CFII welcomed IMC. I am in Florida and so IMC occurs, however it can be associated with convective weather and so knowing the difference and avoiding the latter is quite important. This was before ADSB and did not have radar or Sirius weather, so knowing the signs of a convective cell was imperative. This was one of the big lessons I learnt during my training. Icing not typically a concern thankfully.

Simulators may provide you with a way of practicing your instrument skills but like flying with foggles are not a good substitute for flying in IMC. Though the plane does not care whether you are in IMC the conditions are very different from VMC.

I would submit that the worse time to first experience true IMC is after you get your IFR rating without someone experienced in flying in IMC in the seat next to you. If your CFII is afraid of taking you into true IMC I would search out a new CFII who is not afraid of this.
 
RyanB said:
Some will, some won’t, at least until the late stages and I can’t really blame them. Flying in IMC is a whole different game and should largely be based on the students experience level, proficiency, aircraft equipment etc. That said, your instructor should possess the ability to state their personal minimums and rationale and not just play sick when the occasion comes around.
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I’m “with you” on this.
 
Velocity173 said:
You have an IFR ticket, an aircraft that’s equipped and weather that’s within reg limits, go get that student the experience. Had a few students say it was the best learning experience as far as confidence in their abilities, in all of flight school.
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Completely agree; that is good experience.

Princesspilot206 said:
I'm feeling pretty defeated here. 5 months now my IFR rating has been dragging out as I am barely in Stage III. Everytime it comes to doing a xcountry and it's IMC the instructor is "sick." My checkride is now looking like its going to be mid-April. Want to make a sign out of cardboard that says,"Please fly IMC with me" and stand out in front of the airport. *sad face*
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My first IMC IFR flight was alone the day after I passed the checkride. While I survived, I don't believe I was well prepared for that. It shouldn't be this way.

It seemed to me a large number of CFII's were hesitant to fly in IMC. Presumably this is due to reasons cited earlier in the thread. Not all IMC is like @asicer cited above, but this is the season for ice. Would be kinda funny if you did make that sign. I'm not a CFI but when we had the RV I did fly right seat in IMC under IFR with my freshly private licensed wife. Your sign might just get you a ride, even if you can't log it.
 
As a career flight instructor, totally depends on equipment for me. No way I'd instruct initial instrument students in IMC with an aircraft that requires cross-cockpit crosscheck anymore. Sure, I demonstrated that nonsense in clap traps for my CFII decades ago. It's just not worth my time, I find it unnecessarily unsafe. People eff around and find out with IMC all the time, including instrument current professional pilots.

Give me my own set of FOV-centered attitude/airspeed/altitude instrumentation, and sure let's go.
 
Sorry you have this problem. I lucked out. I was flying a FIKI Cirrus, my instructor took my up into ice a few times, albeit very benign conditions (light ice, no less than 2000 or so ceilings. My instructors mins were 400 ceilings, had to be forecast not to get worse if it was that bad. That did lead to a couple times breaking out close to mins on lpvs and ILSs, was a good lesson on forecasts and working out my personal mins. T-storms were ok if they were small and not too close. We were lucky in that if our home airport was at 600 feet, a nearby airport's ils would be below mins, so I got an actual missed. He had no problem flying IMC and we did it regularly. It was a great experience and you should seek it out.
 
Every time I think about becoming a CFII, I remember how taxing an IMC flight can become. Add that to supervising a student, then recognizing and correcting their errors while on an IFR flight plan, in IMC, likely without appropriate instrumentation on the right side of the panel, and with my certificate at stake, I re-think the wisdom of doing instrument instruction in IMC.
 
If you aren’t flying actual you’re not learning the transitions. Nothing like breaking out 50’ above mins or going IMC at 100’. It’s a lot easier and safer with a CFII in the right seat. My CFII has no problem giving me the experience's I need.
 
Many CFIIs don't have enough recent experience to feel comfortable in IMC with a student, particularly with all the instruments in most light GA airplanes only on the left side of the aircraft. Don't know if that is part of your issue.

Instrument flying is about the most perishable skill in the discipline. So the instructor has to be current enough (meaning he or she is comfortable droning on through the clouds, not the regulatory definition) to know that they can recover a wayward student.

I was fortunate to learn from a 121 captain who still loved GA. We did day and night IMC as much as possible. Granted I had a very well equipped TAA aircraft. First solo flight ended in an ILS to almost mins at night. If you can find such an instructor, do it. If not, at least find one that will get you into the clouds.
 
I’d sad it comes down to lack of experience. Even I’m experienced in my airplane, and I flew right seat and felt uncomfortable. Not sure how confident I am in taking over in an emergency or spatial disorientation from the right seat. Lots of variables.
 
What would stop me would be the typical flight school airplane equipment.

I have no issues flying IFR in IMC from the right seat, WITH A FULL PANEL. Partial panel? Nope.

Local FBO, most of their planes have been upgraded to dual G-5s.
 
Pinecone said:
What would stop me would be the typical flight school airplane equipment.

I have no issues flying IFR in IMC from the right seat, WITH A FULL PANEL. Partial panel? Nope.

Local FBO, most of their planes have been upgraded to dual G-5s.
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You mean one G5 on the left and one on the right, or the usual pair of G5s one on top of the other as is typical? I would think you mean the former, but that seems uncommon in light GA aircraft (i.e., dedicated AI on the right, which is really all that is missing in most planes).

I guess I'm missing why a pair of G5s on the left would give any better right seat comfort than an ordinary AI on the left, and possibly less, since the G5 AI presentation is small compared to a mechanical AI.
 
I'm wondering, is it only instructors that have no other experience? Or is it also with instructors who instruct as a side job?

I never had any problems with instructors not flying in IMC but the biggest part of my training was in AZ. And only flew IMC in the last part of my training in Europe. And those instructors were all current b737 or a320 pilots
 
I'm not a CFI or CFII so can't argue why they should or shouldn't provide instruction in IMC, beyond the obvious weather conditions at the time (ie icing, t-storms, etc). All I can say is I logged 6hrs of actual during my training and I'm eternally grateful that my CFII relished such opportunities. I'm also gratefully that my first encounter with IMC after I got my ticket wasn't also my first actual IMC. As previously stated, there's a world of difference been simulated IMC with Foggels and the real thing, especially when there's no one next to you in the right seat. On my first IMC flight I got vertigo (the one and only time), I didn't lose control of the airplane or anything dramatic, but I was task saturated trying to keep wings level and I'm damn sure glad that the CFII was there.
 
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PaulS said:
Sorry you have this problem. I lucked out. I was flying a FIKI Cirrus, my instructor took my up into ice a few times, albeit very benign conditions (light ice, no less than 2000 or so ceilings. My instructors mins were 400 ceilings, had to be forecast not to get worse if it was that bad. That did lead to a couple times breaking out close to mins on lpvs and ILSs, was a good lesson on forecasts and working out my personal mins. T-storms were ok if they were small and not too close. We were lucky in that if our home airport was at 600 feet, a nearby airport's ils would be below mins, so I got an actual missed. He had no problem flying IMC and we did it regularly. It was a great experience and you should seek it out.
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I was lucky too. I had about 4 hours in the clouds during my instrument training, some of it at night, including two real missed approaches. Definitely interesting to be 200 AGL and see nothing but white. And that was with nothing more than dual NAVs (VLOC only) and an ADF receiver o_O.

I do see quite a bit of rating-with-no-actual, though. It was common in Colorado because of the weather but I see it sometimes here in NC too. The people I know who are in that situation seek out instructors for their first encounter.
 
My CFII had us fly in IMC as much as possible once I had the basics down solidly. He had a few thousand hours, was a career instructor, and had plenty of time in IMC from the right seat with a single six-pack. We managed to find conditions to get a few approaches to near-minimums, and some IMC with pretty good turbulence. Those were good confidence boosters, as well as reality checks. I passed the checkride right at 40 hours instrument time, with 7.5 actual.

And haven’t been IFR current for eight or nine years. The more I did it, the less comfortable I was being in IMC in a piston single, especially in California with mountains, and now in Florida with thunderstorms. Plus my mission is 100% flying for fun - I love the view from up there. Little joy for me in seeing the inside or tops of clouds, and I do have fun using pilotage.
 
Today would be an amazing day to go up for IMC flying in Atlanta. It's widespread IMC with varying ceilings, no cells, and the weather is warm. I can find an airport where we have to go missed, where we'll shoot an approach to minimums, and one where we would have to circle to land, with VFR traffic in the pattern. I wish I could take a student flying right now.

Convection and icing are the reasons for not going into IMC for me, in the southeast. That cuts out some of the flying I can do in summer and winter. I'm also not going to FA&FO with frontal systems, which seemingly dominate the weather we've had here for a while. While there may just be turbulence, I don't have weather radar in the airplane to pick my way through any embedded cells. I've flown into a rain-containing cloud where the water on the windscreen is so loud that you can't hear ATC in your headset. That's unfun.

Also, ceilings -- my primary airport has approaches to 400-500' AGL, so I'm not going to go up if I can't get back down. And if there are widespread low ceilings, I can't find a legal alternate within the fuel range of a 172. Those are the days that I'd really love to go flying, and we get several days of that in the southeast every year.
 
I had an instructor who enjoyed going actual with a student. We did an approach or two at night in actual. Can help to increase your confidence level.
 
I look for a chance to get into imc with my instrument students. The common comment after is that it’s not like the foggles at all. My 172 has G5s on the left side so it can be a little stressful and my neck ends up sore, but it’s worth it for the student. I’ll ask ATC for a block altitude if that helps us stay in imc. It also allows student to do some maneuvering.
Actually I try to get some of the 3 hours required of primary students in actual if possible.
 
I have 46hr instrument time and just under 10 of actual. My CFII prefers getting as much actual as practical with his students and I am grateful for the experience. If I had little actual time before getting the rating I would be much less likely to use it after the check ride. Hopefully, I'll have the rating in hand on March, 18.
 
Steamflyer said:
You mean one G5 on the left and one on the right, or the usual pair of G5s one on top of the other as is typical? I would think you mean the former, but that seems uncommon in light GA aircraft (i.e., dedicated AI on the right, which is really all that is missing in most planes).

I guess I'm missing why a pair of G5s on the left would give any better right seat comfort than an ordinary AI on the left, and possibly less, since the G5 AI presentation is small compared to a mechanical AI.
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Standard 1 AI and 1 HSI setup.

But if the AI fails, the HSI reverts to AI. I would still have iPad for nav.
 
I'll bet a lot of CFIIs don't have much actual experience. I'm up for a checkride soon, and my logbook still shows a paltry 1.0 in the "Actual IMC" column.

So, that means that for now my minimums will be pretty high, just below VMC, basically.

My intention is to communicate that clearly to a student, though. There shouldn't be a need to "call in sick", but people sometimes get embarrassed over things like that. Maybe that explains it. Could it be that your instructor has some higher minimums than he feels he should have?

Anyhow. Just my two cents.

--Matt
 
I am unlikely to sign you off for your checkride unless we have been in the clouds together. You need to find a CFII who will get you into IMC. I am in Nevada so we usually have to go to the Sacramento area to find it. I also do this late in training when the student is proficient enough to handle it.
 
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I've noticed the same thing over the years. I was lucky. The guy I did the 2nd half of my PPL with, as well as my IR, took me in the clouds at every opportunity. I was single without a lot of obligations outside of work and lived close to the airport.... so he'd call whenever he had a VFR student cancellation and the wx was favorable. Good for him to keep his income stream going and good for me. Looking back it wasn't huge, but I had 5.6 actual at the time of my instrument checkride.

Since then when doing BFR's, instrument refreshers, and rental checkouts, it seems the majority of instructors didn't want to go.
 
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