What's the best way to start instrument training?

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allPrimes

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allPrimes
I have 212 TT, 152 PIC, and 87 XC and I'd like to start instrument training. I'm aware of the hours required in 61.65 but am wondering how best to handle the mix of under-the-hood-with-safety-pilot hours vs training with a CFII.

Is it best to start out with some initial instrument training with a CFII (i.e., establish a relationship, get some initial work done, then load up on hours, followed by finishing off training then into checkride?) or is it best to just dive in with a safety-pilot buddy, bang out the hours, then connect with a CFII?

I've already identified a few other club members with whom I can split hours.
 
Start with CFII; if/when the II feels it’s appropriate for you to burn off hours with a safety pilot, they’ll let you know.

It takes an amazingly long time to get the control finesse necessary for the ACS. Flying often helps tremendously.
 
allPrimes said:
or is it best to just dive in with a safety-pilot buddy, bang out the hours, then connect with a CFII?
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Absolutely, unequivocally, NOT. You want to build good habits in a structured environment. Every CFII out there has stories of spending hours and hours UN-teaching bad habits that IFR students picked up from flying with friends before they started actual IFR training. This is a great way to end up spending MORE money, not less. There is a syllabus and systematic progression for a reason.

Also, don't think you're going to do anywhere near just 15 hours with a CFII. It is FAR more likely you will actually need that full 40 hours with a CFII, plus or minus some, sure. But unless you have some great existing experience, or were flying IFR with your dad since you were 6 and this is just a formality, it's going to take well more than 15 hours. IFR is a pretty complicated rating, and a tricky thing to get good at.

It's best to start with a CFII and follow his/her lead on when it would be appropriate for you to practice certain tasks (AFTER you've learned them) with a safety pilot. Use the safety pilot to reinforce the learning you already have received, rather than as a way to cut costs and get the CFII out of the plane. If you approach with this attitude, you WILL save time and money as a result.
 
TCABM said:
Start with CFII; if/when the II feels it’s appropriate for you to burn off hours with a safety pilot, they’ll let you know.

It takes an amazingly long time to get the control finesse necessary for the ACS. Flying often helps tremendously.
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RussR said:
Absolutely, unequivocally, NOT. You want to build good habits in a structured environment. Every CFII out there has stories of spending hours and hours UN-teaching bad habits that IFR students picked up from flying with friends before they started actual IFR training. This is a great way to end up spending MORE money, not less. There is a syllabus and systematic progression for a reason.

Also, don't think you're going to do anywhere near just 15 hours with a CFII. It is FAR more likely you will actually need that full 40 hours with a CFII, plus or minus some, sure. But unless you have some great existing experience, or were flying IFR with your dad since you were 6 and this is just a formality, it's going to take well more than 15 hours. IFR is a pretty complicated rating, and a tricky thing to get good at.

It's best to start with a CFII and follow his/her lead on when it would be appropriate for you to practice certain tasks (AFTER you've learned them) with a safety pilot. Use the safety pilot to reinforce the learning you already have received, rather than as a way to cut costs and get the CFII out of the plane. If you approach with this attitude, you WILL save time and money as a result.
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When the first two respondents agree on a board like PoA, it must mean that this is, by far, the best way to do things.

Thanks to you both!
 
The way to start is with groundschool and the written test, if you haven't already done so.
 
You can start with a buddy....just be sure and cover the gyro driven instruments. Start with partial panel stuff. ;)
 
WDD said:
Manage expectations - getting the IR is as much if not more work and time as getting the PPL.
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Thanks for this. I'm not quite sure what to expect. Reading others' experience, I'm not expecting a walk in the park but thinking about timing for this is challenging.

Which begs the question of whether or not I should start the rating now or wait until spring 2024? I live in the northern rockies where "actual" IFC is mostly "icing conditions," especially during winter and a lot of winter isn't available for flying GA unless it's done on a "ooh! Weather is supposed to be nice for this weekend! Better reserve a club plane now!" basis. Weather wise, we've got a solid two months before winter starts to set in (though it could, easily start in late October, like it did last year). It may be best to focus on ground school for now, fly with a CFII to get some hours in to help with connecting the good habits to the ground work, then start in earnest as the weather gets better next year?
 
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I recommend doing it all with a cfii. Just passed my instrument ride July 1 with 44.6 all with a cfii. IMHO its the way to go. When bad habits started to develop he was right there to punch me in the head and correct it. Where as a buddy flying right seat as a safety pilot might just be looking out the window enjoying the view.

This advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.:cool:


Edit to add: Start now there is no time like the present
 
I spent the bad weather months studying and taking the written. Hint - it’s as much of a slog as the ppl written. I’d get the written out of the way and then start training with your CFII.

And set up your home simulator. Suggest X plane. Lots of threads in how to set up. Get the GTN 650 (or whatever you’ll be using) I pad simulator as well.
 
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Agree with the advice that just farting around with a safety pilot isn't doing much for you and potentially creating bad habits. One thing to consider, if it works for you, is to get 10ish hours with a CFII and then go to a accelerated course and just bang it out. It's HARD either way, but for some learning styles the accelerated 100% focus for 10 days works better than 1 or 2 times a week.

I did accelerated and I think it worked for me. I was totally drained at the end and exhausted at the end of each day, but the learning was solid.

Doesn't work for everybody. I had just retired, so I could devote 100% for the 10 days. If you can't do that, then it's not for you.
 
It all depends. Is the CFII a local who has spent 15 years shooting the same ten approaches at the four airports within 75 miles? Pass. Or are they currently flying the line and teaching part time - go for it. Similar for the friend - flies IFR in the system for business three times a month - great. Barely knows the local area but retains currency, not so much.
 
I dont recommend safety pilots at all. Just do it with a CFI. Thats the smallest part of the entire equation to save money on. You are already paying $150+ an hour, what is the $50/hour for the CFI to log dual time. You'll learn more rather than just practicing and get up to speed faster. I dont find you gain anything with safety pilots (outside of maintaining currency AFTER you get your IR). SO I agree with some others here - do all time with a CFI.
 
I did my checkride a week ago. That rating was one of the hardest things I have ever done, and not just flying. Don’t do anything that’s going to make it worse. No bad habits, no shortcuts, and no complaining.
 
Agree with above. For what it's worth, I do not think desk top simulator time is not a good substitute for actual flying IFR. It helps with being familiar with the procedure, but in the real plane a lot more is happening. Working under foggles with a CFII is close but real IMC is a different animal. My suggestion is to get as much true IMC as you can.
 
allPrimes said:
I have 212 TT, 152 PIC, and 87 XC and I'd like to start instrument training. I'm aware of the hours required in 61.65 but am wondering how best to handle the mix of under-the-hood-with-safety-pilot hours vs training with a CFII.

Is it best to start out with some initial instrument training with a CFII (i.e., establish a relationship, get some initial work done, then load up on hours, followed by finishing off training then into checkride?) or is it best to just dive in with a safety-pilot buddy, bang out the hours, then connect with a CFII?

I've already identified a few other club members with whom I can split hours.
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Locate a flight school close to you and see if you can find a older CFII and see if you can fly with them only to start with. Instrument training was a long haul for me, took longer than my primary training. I took a break during the hot summer from training but was still flying my own plane.
I did my primary training when I learned to land in a school plane(beat it up) and then started instrument training in a school plane and finished in my own plane.
I used the same school at first that I earned my PPL at, then switched schools to my home airport when my instructor left the school in the middle of my training which was dragging on. 6 instructors for primary and 3 for instrument training is what it took for me.
It was refreshing to fly with a older CFII at my own airport, we clicked so well. He sent me for my check ride after 5-6 flights. I thought I was still months away from being ready. I passed that check ride with no problem.

Now I have a good buddy who is a 40 year pilot who I fly with to stay current and does my IPCs. I found the older more experienced CFIIs to be the best for me.
They suggested to fly for couple hundred hours before starting instrument training so it sounds like you are right on track.
Good luck!
 
Gary Ward said:
Locate a flight school close to you and see if you can find a older CFII and see if you can fly with them only to start with.

Now I have a good buddy who is a 40 year pilot who I fly with to stay current and does my IPCs. I found the older more experienced CFIIs to be the best for me.
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This x1000 if at all possible. The cfii I was flying with lost his medical temporarily which forced me to make some phone calls. The cfii I hooked up with is a retired USMC pilot that held my feet to the fire flying Sunday afternoons and 1 evening a week after work. Some days he rode me like a sled dog (I guess you don't ride a sled dog) and kept the pressure on full time sending me quizzes and stuff to read on my off days while I was working and he was doing his contract pilot thing. But he MADE me a better pilot. The checkride was borderline underwhelming to me, and the first time I launched into the clouds I had all the tools I needed to be successful. On top of that we became great friends that get to fly together.
 
There's a TON of great information here. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Again, it's surprising how similar they all are, which is definitely not the norm for POA. I infer, then, that this REALLY IS the best way to do things.

I've reached out to the Part 61 school where I got my PPL and have been connected with a CFII there. (Although there's at least one ATP in my flying club, they're not teaching part time. My PPL instructor, although he has moved on to the airlines and has maintained his CFII, is not in town enough to make training with him efficient.) Likely next steps are for me to start my ground self-study, maybe get some early hours with the instructor to connect air work to ground work (having that connection is helpful for me), written over winter/late winter, then start flying in earnest in spring.

I had always heard that flying with a safety pilot is a great way to save money on an IR but it sounds like the money saved simply reinforces bad habits and is better spent on instruction. I'm in for more instruction and instilling good habits.
 
allPrimes said:
There's a TON of great information here. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Again, it's surprising how similar they all are, which is definitely not the norm for POA. I infer, then, that this REALLY IS the best way to do things.

I've reached out to the Part 61 school where I got my PPL and have been connected with a CFII there. (Although there's at least one ATP in my flying club, they're not teaching part time. My PPL instructor, although he has moved on to the airlines and has maintained his CFII, is not in town enough to make training with him efficient.) Likely next steps are for me to start my ground self-study, maybe get some early hours with the instructor to connect air work to ground work (having that connection is helpful for me), written over winter/late winter, then start flying in earnest in spring.

I had always heard that flying with a safety pilot is a great way to save money on an IR but it sounds like the money saved simply reinforces bad habits and is better spent on instruction. I'm in for more instruction and instilling good habits.
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Flying AS a safety pilot is good experience. Once you start working on approaches it’s a good way to see what’s happening, it helps you visualize what it is that you are doing.
 
allPrimes said:
I had always heard that flying with a safety pilot is a great way to save money on an IR but it sounds like the money saved simply reinforces bad habits and is better spent on instruction. I'm in for more instruction and instilling good habits.
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It IS a great idea to fly with a safety pilot, at appropriate times in your training, and working on specific skills that your CFII has already taught you. This will reinforce what you learned if done correctly.
 
Matthew said:
Flying AS a safety pilot is good experience. Once you start working on approaches it’s a good way to see what’s happening, it helps you visualize what it is that you are doing.
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I'll second this. It lets you step away from the physical control of the aircraft and just think about what needs to be done. You'll be seeing tasks long before the pilot does, and will get good practice at anticipating what's next. Since you're not flying, you'll have lots of extra brain cells to spare.
 
Anthem said:
I dont recommend safety pilots at all. Just do it with a CFI.
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I encourage my instrument students to look for opportunities to fly with a safety pilot between lessons, not to try new things we haven't covered yet but to repeat things we've already done, thereby adding to the muscle memory of using the GPS, radios and autopilot. The more often they do that, the better they'll remember, and frankly they don't need to have me sitting next to them 100% of the time to accomplish that.

- Martin
 
allPrimes said:
I have 212 TT, 152 PIC, and 87 XC and I'd like to start instrument training. I'm aware of the hours required in 61.65 but am wondering how best to handle the mix of under-the-hood-with-safety-pilot hours vs training with a CFII.

Is it best to start out with some initial instrument training with a CFII (i.e., establish a relationship, get some initial work done, then load up on hours, followed by finishing off training then into checkride?) or is it best to just dive in with a safety-pilot buddy, bang out the hours, then connect with a CFII?

I've already identified a few other club members with whom I can split hours.
Click to expand...
I started with a buddy who was instrument rated right after my ppl checkride. He basically just showed me the ropes and informed me what to focus on the most. He’s the one who taught me how to read approach plates and fly on the magenta line. It was very helpful going into training with a CFII because I knew what to expect and fine tuned from there. Starting with a CFII is still the most ”textbook” and safest way to get started though but this was just my experience. Good luck!
 
Martin Pauly said:
I encourage my instrument students to look for opportunities to fly with a safety pilot between lessons, not to try new things we haven't covered yet but to repeat things we've already done, thereby adding to the muscle memory of using the GPS, radios and autopilot. The more often they do that, the better they'll remember, and frankly they don't need to have me sitting next to them 100% of the time to accomplish that.

- Martin
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None of which cant be accomplished with the CFI present as well. Now, if you dont want to be there and the cost of having a CFI there in the overall cost of things (maybe to save 30% of the cost) - then so be it. You also dont have to deal with the entire crapola of whether the SP wants to switch off, "sharing" of expenses to get that double logging of PIC, etc etc. Whatever time you use, learn, log is all yours. Will you gain a benefit of maybe being a safety pilot at times ? yeah some. Limited after awhile. But is the potential to learn more with the CFI always present vs a safety pilot ? Absolutely. . . Not even close.
 
I tried using the Redbird simulator to see how well that would work. We were in one of those multi-week nasty, icy, overcast, freezing episodes and I figured it would be a good chance to sit down at the sim and see what it could do for me. I spent about 1.5 hrs on it, and almost every bit of that time was spent simply learning the "feel" of the sim controls. I'll have to go back and give it another try, but that first experience wasn't very good.
 
The redbird isnt necessarily great for training for instrument flight. however its great for chair flying, or teaching you to have that scan going (every 1-2 seconds). It forces you to adjust and see if your are scanning the instruments available like an IFR pilot should be.
 
Anthem said:
None of which cant be accomplished with the CFI present as well. Now, if you dont want to be there and the cost of having a CFI there in the overall cost of things (maybe to save 30% of the cost) - then so be it. You also dont have to deal with the entire crapola of whether the SP wants to switch off, "sharing" of expenses to get that double logging of PIC, etc etc. Whatever time you use, learn, log is all yours. Will you gain a benefit of maybe being a safety pilot at times ? yeah some. Limited after awhile. But is the potential to learn more with the CFI always present vs a safety pilot ? Absolutely. . . Not even close.
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Do realize that there are other reasons to fly with a safety pilot during training other than to just try to save money. I have had numerous IFR trainees who do continue to fly for purposes other than training, during their training. Maybe they want to fly to a pancake breakfast, and ask me what they can work on with their friend the safety pilot. Or do any other trip. Or even just fly because it's a nice day and I'm not available.
 
Get with an instructor for initial training, have the instructor te you what to prac with a safety pilot. Not crazy about using a sim except to save some money.
 
I literally started my IFR flight training last week and am now 2.5 hours into it. My $0.02 about what I've learned thus far.

> Getting the written out of the way first is definitely the way to go. You'll be spending a lot of time learning the IFR written materials and taking practice quizzes. While doing flight training, you'll also be doing a lot of ground study. No sense in doubling the workload. (Yes, I got my written done prior to flight training.)
> Having the written out of the way makes the preflight ground briefs easier to grasp.
> If the flying window is closing on you best wait till spring. I don't think you'll want to get a few hours under your belt and then let it atrophy for 3 months while you wait for better weather. Flying consistently is key.
> The flying lessons are exhausting. Count on it. Make sure you are rested so you are mentally and physically ready. Put time in your schedule to rest after taking a lesson.
> Don't cram the flight lesson into a free spot on the calendar. Be deliberate in scheduling your flight lessons to avoid being rushed. Flight lesson MUST be a priority.
> You'll need time for preflight planning. Make sure you schedule that time in. You just can't "show up".
> Show up early to the lesson. There is lots to do before hopping in the plane. No sense paying the instructor to stand around while you get your s**t in order.

I'm sure as I progress, I'll have more bullet points. I'm counting on it. Hope this helps in some way.
 
Papa Pilot said:
I literally started my IFR flight training last week and am now 2.5 hours into it. My $0.02 about what I've learned thus far.

> Getting the written out of the way first is definitely the way to go. You'll be spending a lot of time learning the IFR written materials and taking practice quizzes. While doing flight training, you'll also be doing a lot of ground study. No sense in doubling the workload. (Yes, I got my written done prior to flight training.)
> Having the written out of the way makes the preflight ground briefs easier to grasp.
> If the flying window is closing on you best wait till spring. I don't think you'll want to get a few hours under your belt and then let it atrophy for 3 months while you wait for better weather. Flying consistently is key.
> The flying lessons are exhausting. Count on it. Make sure you are rested so you are mentally and physically ready. Put time in your schedule to rest after taking a lesson.
> Don't cram the flight lesson into a free spot on the calendar. Be deliberate in scheduling your flight lessons to avoid being rushed. Flight lesson MUST be a priority.
> You'll need time for preflight planning. Make sure you schedule that time in. You just can't "show up".
> Show up early to the lesson. There is lots to do before hopping in the plane. No sense paying the instructor to stand around while you get your s**t in order.

I'm sure as I progress, I'll have more bullet points. I'm counting on it. Hope this helps in some way.
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Great info here. Thanks for sharing. This definitely does help.

I chatted with the owner of the school where I got my PPL. They mentioned that they have a shortage of instructors and have been having to turn students away. Hearing that, I made the decision to just focus on getting the written done over the next few months (as winter sets in in the northern rockies), hope they can resolve their instructor issues by spring, then digging in to the training then.
 
RussR said:
Do realize that there are other reasons to fly with a safety pilot during training other than to just try to save money. I have had numerous IFR trainees who do continue to fly for purposes other than training, during their training. Maybe they want to fly to a pancake breakfast, and ask me what they can work on with their friend the safety pilot. Or do any other trip. Or even just fly because it's a nice day and I'm not available.
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I am not against using a safety pilot. Im just saying for the actual "training" aspect of it - I think saving money on not having a CFI is penny wise pound foolish.. or just saving where there isnt much benefit. In your presented case, I would argue that that isnt "training". Would you like to maybe practice with another pilot as safety - sure. But you generally dont plan "pancake runs" or $100 hamburger runs as part of your planned training. thats you taking a trip and perhaps someone standby is acting as a safety pilot. But you can also have your CFI onboard as well. Most CFI's dont mind making a pancake run with you either that you cover their costs/time. . . Hell, I've taken my CFI to Teterboro and Tampa and paid for his flight back from Florida just for long xc instrument training as well. Most CFI's are pretty flexible in that regard. . Just realize that time is time and you need to compensate them accordingly.
 
The key is to just start.

I got my first 20 hours over 10 years through attempted starts, flight reviews, and safety pilots. When I decided I really needed it, I scheduled a 4 day weekend for a finish up program and knocked it out. worked for me.

Methinks:

Use of night flight and cross country flights with stops at a lot of airports are great with a CFII.

Use of the same plane is helpful. I owned my plane and had systems familiarity but it works with a rental if you have a consistent one.

Be very VFR current.

Learn the "numbers" for your plane. The Instrument Flight Training Manual by Peter Dogan is a good resource and explains the numbers concept. It's good for VFR too.

Once you figure out the numbers, getting comfortable with repetitions is fine with a SP IMHO.

But yeah, just get started.
 
I flew all my training time with a CFII. I also flew approaches VFR, no hood, talking to ATC by myself. I was older when I did it and had a plateau so it took me longer. But, I came out the other side a confident instrument pilot. I've met other pilots who did it quickly and were not comfortable with IMC. I think that happens more often then we think. It takes longer dealing with ATC while training, but well worth it IMO.

Make sure your instructor will fly and train in IMC. My instructor had a minimum to go criteria of 500 foot ceilings (ils and lpv 200 foot mins at base airport), obviously no ts nearby or consistent ice (fiki plane - we wouldn't take off with known ice). I only missed a few lessons due to weather. If your instructor won't fly in IMC, find another. I ended up flying many actual approaches close to mins with him (conditions change, more often than you would suspect). Priceless experience IMO. It is different in a cloud versus under the hood.

I agree with doing the written early on. I think it helped me with training, I also kept studying through my training after the test. That made the oral during the check ride, which was quite extensive, easy.

I'd get started now.
 
Instrument flying is three things, in order of importance:

1. Control of the airplane by reference to instruments.
2. Navigation of the airplane by reference to instruments.
3. Rules.

The rub is that #3 is easiest to do by yourself, it’s a test and purely academic.

So…. YOU decide where you are and what you need. Once a cfii has taught you what you need for #1, and you wholly understand that, a safety pilot is just fine. DO NOT let a safety pilot or your own ego allow you to try and progress past #1 and work on #2 until you’re READY. And so on. You can do the written about any time. Depends on your own academic acumen. Oral prep pretty much comes last, which just makes sense.

The reason I put them in that order is that #1 has to be like fun flying on a bright sunny day natural to you. So that you can then dedicate mental resources to #2. Once 1 and 2 are natural, you can then decipher rules on the fly, as in how malfunctions and changing weather affect you.

It takes many a certain amount of just time, a safety pilot is fine as long as you stay in your lane. I know several pilots who KNOW the rules PERFECTLY… can program the Garmin really well… but can NOT hold a heading. They are both on several hundred hours of training and multiple failed checkrides. Professional pilots transition from visual to instruments without even thinking about it. It’s like old guys putting on their readers to look at something close… just happens seamlessly.

Have fun! It IS fun. Really really fun!
 
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I would add, to get you started…

The #1 most importantest thing EVER is a scan pattern. It’s based on:

Gyro nose
Gyro wing
Gyro nose
Gyro wing
Gyro performance
Gyro other

Lather rinse repeat. Period.

After MANY thousands of hours later, when my situational awareness falters I automatically revert to this STILL. This deliberate scan gets you to the point you simply assimilate the information in front of you.

An analogy is driving in your lane by referencing a checkpoint on the hood of your car, to where you are now… you simply know where in the traffic lane you are. Get in a new car, you glance at the hood, but not for long.
 
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