What's Lowest Cost Plane to Book Hours In?

Windpane

Windpane

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Windpane
I've been looking around researching for well over 100 hours now. I find side ideas here and there, and I found where one trainee bought a kit for $18,000 to get the training in. That's 180x flight hours worth to me. I realize there's storage, maintenance, insurance etc to add on, but here's my theory about owning.

If I have a personal plane then I can book 800x hours at a cost of probably $40,000 (plus option to sell for some money back) more than enough to accomplish the licenses and quals that will allow me to get paying gigs. This could be the path to cargo pilot. So anyway...800x hours is $80,000 in rental fees. I should be owning a decent plane at all of those o's. :rolleyes1: Hehe.

Not only that I'd have the plane to cheaply/expediently hop from port to port, and go fly others' planes for paying gigs...whatever gigs in the mutli state area.


So what kind of purchase should I make to cut training/experience flight hour costs, and give me personal flight transportation to get me to any tri-state paying gigs? I just need it for two purposes, and then I can "trade it on on an upgrade" so to speak later on.

Cheap new kit?
Cheaper used Kit?
Or a 4x ownership share with three other share owners on bigger plane?


I'll appreciate your reply.
 
By “kit”, do you mean an unbuilt kit plane or an experimental aircraft?

for the first, keep in mind that these things are not models. They take years to build and certify. Buying a kit to build is not the way to cheap flight hours. If you are interested in building, then build because you like it, not because you want inexpensive flying.

for the second, I’d be very surprised if you could find a reliable built experimental for 18k, as that usually is less than the value of the engine. Then also recall that as an experimental, you are responsible for all the maintenance, so you need to be mechanically inclined and knowledgable about how to do it. Otherwise you pay someone else to do it and that isn’t inexpensive.

If you are looking for inexpensive flying, a partnership/club is a good choice or purchasing a small airplane like a taylorcraft, Cessna 150 or maybe a Cherokee 140 might be a path. Still, maintenance is a significant expense, especially in older planes. Actual operating cost is less than 50% of the cost of ownership.

Some really big ideas in all this - haven’t really scratched the surface.
 
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$18,000 will get you a Cessna 150 with old avionics capable of IFR. Depending on fuel prices and if you have a major issue like needing an engine overhaul you might make your $40,000 number with one. You might not. That’s probably the only plane you could get that cheap capable of IFR. Better find a skinny instructor, and I hope you are skinny too. Good luck.
 
bflynn said:
By “kit”, do you mean an unbuilt kit plane or an experimental aircraft?

so you need to be mechanically inclined and knowledgable about how to do it.
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I'm thinking the unbuilt kind that they ship to you. I wonder about experimental too though.

And I'm great with auto and equipment mechanics. I was an tree climb/arborist contractor company owner/op. Working on all of the engines in all of the rigs and equipment was half the battle. I researched and fixed...and fixed...aaaaa..... I'm good. I even fix the A/C's, fridges, laptops, smartphones, build the computers...basically anything mechanical other than specialty like transmission. Never rebuilt a head or piston seals, but I'd do it. Pocket Ace.

Salty said:
$18,000 will get you a Cessna 150 with old avionics capable of IFR. That’s probably the only plane you could get that cheap capable of IFR. Better find a skinny instructor.
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Wacha think if a guy were to get one without IFR, and just rent a plane for the IFR portion of the training? I'm only saying because I forget the hours needed to pass IFR at the moment, and I really would rather have IFR ability at my disposal for personal practice hours in the nights. Really.

Yeah, and those poor CFI's. LOL Squeezin' into one of those ole stinkers with a with a dern stranger. Yucks. :biggrin:
 
Windpane said:
I'm thinking the unbuilt kind that they ship to you. I wonder about experimental too though.

And I'm great with auto and equipment mechanics. I was an tree climb/arborist contractor company owner/op. Working on all of the engines in all of the rigs and equipment was half the battle. I researched and fixed...and fixed...aaaaa..... I'm good. I even fix the A/C's, fridges, laptops, smartphones, build the computers...basically anything mechanical other than specialty like transmission. Never rebuilt a head or piston seals, but I'd do it. Pocket Ace.



Wacha think if a guy were to get one without IFR, and just rent a plane for the IFR portion of the training? I'm only saying because I forget the hours needed to pass IFR at the moment, and I really would rather have IFR ability at my disposal for personal practice hours in the nights. Really.

Yeah, and those poor CFI's. LOL Squeezin' into one of those ole stinkers with a with a dern stranger. Yucks. :biggrin:
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You don’t save money building a home built. You do it because you have 3 to 10 years of free time and you want to build a plane.

If I were buying a plane to train in, I would get one IFR capable.
 
Windpane said:
I'm thinking the unbuilt kind that they ship to you. I wonder about experimental too though....
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Kit planes = experimental


Windpane said:
Wacha think if a guy were to get one without IFR, and just rent a plane for the IFR portion of the training? I'm only saying because I forget the hours needed to pass IFR at the moment, and I really would rather have IFR ability at my disposal for personal practice hours in the nights. Really.

Yeah, and those poor CFI's. LOL Squeezin' into one of those ole stinkers with a with a dern stranger. Yucks. :biggrin:
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If the plan is to save money on training by not renting, wouldn't you want a plane that you can do this training in? As mentioned above, a Cessna 150, with 2 VORs, one with a glide slope, would get you through IFR. I see them often for less than $20k
 
Windpane said:
I'm thinking the unbuilt kind that they ship to you. I wonder about experimental too though.
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A kit plane will be experimental either way. Only difference is the amount of work; a mostly prefabbed bolt together kit will be experimental-light sport (ELSA) and have the performance restrictions that go with light-sport, then you have Experimental-Amateur Built (EAB) where you have to do a lot more work (the so-called 51% rule), with no limits on performance.

The standard line is, "If you want to build, build. If you want to fly, buy."

But a used experimental will almost always be more airplane for the same amount of money as a factory built plane, and you can legally do all the maintenance yourself. On a factory built plane all maintenance has to be performed (or signed off) by an A&P.
 
Dana said:
A kit plane will be experimental either way. Only difference is the amount of work; a mostly prefabbed bolt together kit will be experimental-light sport (ELSA) and have the performance restrictions that go with light-sport, then you have Experimental-Amateur Built (EAB) where you have to do a lot more work (the so-called 51% rule), with no limits on performance.

The standard line is, "If you want to build, build. If you want to fly, buy."

But a used experimental will almost always be more airplane for the same amount of money as a factory built plane, and you can legally do all the maintenance yourself. On a factory built plane all maintenance has to be performed (or signed off) by an A&P.
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1. With no experience working on planes I’d have a good mechanic lined up to help. That’s not going to be free. Annual condition inspections still have to be done by a licensed A&P.
2. Finding an instructor willing to teach in an experimental will be more difficult. Not impossible but it will limit you.
3. You’re not going to find an experimental that you want to fly 800 hours in for anything close to $18,000
 
So you think a kit plane is quick and easy to build?????
Do you want to fly or spend years building a plane? Most Kit plane take a couple thousand hours if you want a nice airplane.
Go buy a Cessna 150 and keep it parked on the ramp for free if you want to fly cheap....
 
Whatever decision you decide to make just go in with eyes wide open. In your calculus, don't forget to include things like insurance, maintenance, tie down/hangar rent, etc in additional to the direct operating expenses. Ownership is generally the most costly way to fly but gives you the most flexibility. If you go the kit route, don't expect to fly much during the build. I got my IFR during the latter stages of my build but I flew almost none during the preceding years of the build.

For my money getting into a club or partnership is the best answer.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
a Cessna 150...would get you through IFR. I see them often for less than $20k
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What are the best websites/sources for the used planes...any kind of interesting small craft/small plane...and/or all of the cheapies?


Dana said:
But a used experimental will almost always be more airplane for the same amount of money as a factory built plane, and you can legally do all the maintenance yourself. On a factory built plane all maintenance has to be performed (or signed off) by an A&P.
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Okay, so building is out. :idea: So what's the rule on doing my own maintenance? Line up an A&P to sign off on everything I guess? How much time and money are they going to run? :ihih:


Salty said:
2. Finding an instructor willing to teach in an experimental will be more difficult. Not impossible but it will limit you.
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Are they shy? :yikes:


pigpenracing said:
Go buy a Cessna 150 and keep it parked on the ramp for free if you want to fly cheap....
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This has to be a joke, right? They told me it's a Free Country, so were they talking about this? :fingerwag::frown2:
 
bflynn said:
I’d be very surprised if you could find a reliable built experimental for 18k,
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Mine cost me $20K (about 10 years old when I bought it). Yes, that is less than the cost of the engine. But it is not even close to being equipped for IFR training.

I've put a couple hundred hours on it so far.
 
If you’re looking to build hours as cheaply as possible, you can find Minimax and Flybably aircraft For $4k-$8k pretty easily. There are some other aircraft that you can find in that range as well. With something like that you do have to go in knowing an amateur built it and you have to find an A&P willing to work on experimentals
 
Windpane said:
So what's the rule on doing my own maintenance? Line up an A&P to sign off on everything I guess?
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If you buy an already built and flying E-AB aircraft you need an A&P to do the annual condition inspection. You can perform and sign off your own maintenance. Or, you can get the kid that cuts your lawn to do it for you. Or pay an A&P for anything you don't feel comfortable with.
 
tsts4 said:
For my money getting into a club or partnership is the best answer.
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Hmmmmm, what about used under $30,000 in a club and partnership, and we lease it to the club?
 
Salty said:
2. Finding an instructor willing to teach in an experimental will be more difficult. Not impossible but it will limit you.
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Not in my experience. The only issue I've ever run into is having a given CFI named on my insurance, but I've never had one balk because I fly an E-AB.

Windpane said:
Hmmmmm, what about used under $30,000 in a club and partnership, and we lease it to the club?
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I'm sure it's doable but you'll have to find partners/members who want to fly something in that category. My guess is most will want something with more performance/x-c capability with decent avionics to include an IFR GPS. You aren't going to find that for $30K.
 
Windpane said:
What are the best websites/sources for the used planes...any kind of interesting small craft/small plane...and/or all of the cheapies?




Okay, so building is out. :idea: So what's the rule on doing my own maintenance? Line up an A&P to sign off on everything I guess? How much time and money are they going to run? :ihih:




Are they shy? :yikes:




This has to be a joke, right? They told me it's a Free Country, so were they talking about this? :fingerwag::frown2:
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Why is that a joke? Lots of people keep their plane parked out. My airport does not charge anything to keep it tied down outside
 
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Windpane said:
This has to be a joke, right? They told me it's a Free Country, so were they talking about this? :fingerwag::frown2:
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Depends on where you are at. But a tie down will be a lot less than a hangar.
At the airport where my ride hangs out (ONZ, Grosse Ile Municipal), a tie down is $49 per month, and the lowest cost hangars are $152 in the "big shared hangar" and $224 for your own hangar.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Depends on where you are at. But a tie down will be a lot less than a hangar.
At the airport where my ride hangs out (ONZ, Grosse Ile Municipal), a tie down is $49 per month, and the lowest cost hangars are $152 in the "big shared hangar" and $224 for your own hangar.
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It really depends on where you are. I’ve heard of some airports close to me charging ~$600/month for a hangar. So before the OP creates a cost estimate it would be very good if he called some local airports to get an understanding of his area.
 
Building is neither cheaper nor faster.

I checked and saw no completed homebuilts (aka kit, aka experimental) for anything close to 20k.

The only kits planes I’m aware of that can be built and fitted to fly for 20k are maybe Airdrome Aeroplanes WW-I replicas with a homebuilt VW engine, but those are probably closer to ultralights than an airplane.

The cost of the kit is for the airframe and still need instruments, avionics and an engine. The cheapest thing I know of - I’ve done research because I’d like to build too - is the Zenith or Sonex airplanes, which you can probably built and add an engine and avionics for around 60k. Actually, the Sonex might be a little less because it can also use the homebuilt VW, but there are reliability issue for people who don’t know engines well, so I guess I discount that.
 
Windpane said:
...
And I'm great with auto and equipment mechanics. I was an tree climb/arborist contractor company owner/op. Working on all of the engines in all of the rigs and equipment was half the battle. I researched and fixed...and fixed...aaaaa..... I'm good. I even fix the A/C's, fridges, laptops, smartphones, build the computers...basically anything mechanical other than specialty like transmission. Never rebuilt a head or piston seals, but I'd do it. Pocket Ace. ....
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Don't know how many of your are familiar w/ the Jerky Boy's "Frank Rizzo" sketches, but the Rizzo voice was all I could hear internally as I read the above quote.

Windpane.. read the texts. Take a lesson or two locally and rent the plane. If you're still gung-ho, buy a Cherokee or 152. Building will cost you a lot more money, and a LOT more time. Trust me...I'm the best...dat's right, sizzlechest....
 
Regarding flight instruction in a home built...the flight instructor has a vested interest in riding in an airworthy plane, preferably one in which he or she understands the capabilities and limitations intimately.

I’m not saying that once I become an instructor I wouldn’t instruct in an experimental, but I’m not climbing into just any ‘ole plane as a pilot, passenger, or instructor. There would be a number of very important hoops to jump through first.
 
snglecoil said:
Regarding flight instruction in a home built...the flight instructor has a vested interest in riding in an airworthy plane, preferably one in which he or she understands the capabilities and limitations intimately.

I’m not saying that once I become an instructor I wouldn’t instruct in an experimental, but I’m not climbing into just any ‘ole plane as a pilot, passenger, or instructor. There would be a number of very important hoops to jump through first.
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So how are you going to ascertain the airworthiness of the non E-AB aircraft you plan to instruct in, especially one owned by a customer? Although E-AB aircraft aren't technically ever airworthy since they never conform to a type certificate, they do have to be documented as, and maintained in a condition for safe operation and are nevertheless issued a special airworthiness certificate. This is analogous to maintaining airworthiness in a standard certificated aircraft. I get not wanting to instruct in something you aren't familiar with, but just because something has standard airworthiness certificate won't shield you from improper or poor maintenance or ignorance of a model's performance envelope or quirks. If you have doubts, ask the owner to educate you on the model, show you logs, etc. As I stated above, I've never had an CFI balk at instructing in my plane, and have no first or second hand knowledge of it happening although I guess it does based upon the posts here. I have heard of DPEs declining to give checkrides in E-AB aircraft, but anecdotally that too seems to be a rare exception.
 
When I owned an experimental, I never had a single issue getting instruction in it. All my instructors liked the idea of getting to fly in something unusual.

Now as skier pointed out above, getting an A&P willing to work on it was a different story. I literally would spend days on the telephone finding a mechanic for the annual condition inspection. I've heard it can be geographically specific, but I had to take my experimental 400+ miles every year to the closest A&P I could find to touch it.
 
OP - Take flying lessons and earn your private certificate to get better aquatinted with aviation in a progressive manner. You’ll then be better informed to make decisions on wether to buy, rent or join a club. Seriously, you’ll be doing yourself a favor by taking this approach. Sure, there are exceptions, but for the majority of us, it’s the best way to discover the realities of general aviation.
 
@Windpane - would you please share the airport (or airport codes) of the 2 or 3 airports you will be flying out of. That will help us determine if you have a option for no ramp fees and adsb compliance requirements (both of which will be more $$$$ if required).
 
Weekend Warrior said:
www.barnstormers.com

www.trade-a-plane.com

Even craigslist for something as common as a C150. And because they are so common, I wouldn't travel too far to get one either.
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Maybe not as practical but there is also Controller.com.

Another nice thing about craigslist, lots of times clubs advertise on there. For example right now on the Minneapolis Craigslist I am seeing 5 different clubs advertised, some with some very nice planes like 172, 182 and then all those other kinds of planes with wings in the wrong places!
 
tsts4 said:
So how are you going to ascertain the airworthiness of the non E-AB aircraft you plan to instruct in, especially one owned by a customer? Although E-AB aircraft aren't technically ever airworthy since they never conform to a type certificate, they do have to be documented as, and maintained in a condition for safe operation and are nevertheless issued a special airworthiness certificate. This is analogous to maintaining airworthiness in a standard certificated aircraft. I get not wanting to instruct in something you aren't familiar with, but just because something has standard airworthiness certificate won't shield you from improper or poor maintenance or ignorance of a model's performance envelope or quirks. If you have doubts, ask the owner to educate you on the model, show you logs, etc. As I stated above, I've never had an CFI balk at instructing in my plane, and have no first or second hand knowledge of it happening although I guess it does based upon the posts here. I have heard of DPEs declining to give checkrides in E-AB aircraft, but anecdotally that too seems to be a rare exception.
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Valid questions, and I'm certainly not knocking the experimental/home built market. One of my dreams is to built an RV10 someday. I was just throwing it out there that, personally It would take an extra measure of due diligence...especially in the above scenario of a very enthusiastic but inexperienced first time builder.
 
All good information above. Getting to solo is probably the hardest on the airplane as there will be a lot of rough landings. I’d recommend that you at least get to the solo point in a rental. That way you’ve beaten up someone else’s plane and you have a lot better idea of what it what it takes to commit aviation. And your CFI can help you network to a plane which will fit your plans.
 
Find yourself a Piper Colt. Seriously.

Something like this: https://barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?id=1505504

More room than a 150, faster, more gas, carry more, same basic cost to operate and maybe a tiny bit more rugged, too. Only downside is hangaring fabric, but that's not as bad as some make it out to be.
 
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Sinistar said:
@Windpane - would you please share the airport (or airport codes) of the 2 or 3 airports you will be flying out of. That will help us determine if you have a option for no ramp fees and adsb compliance requirements (both of which will be more $$$$ if required).
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He's being dodgy for unknown reasons. Just says he's USA-based.

I don't think he gets the "community" part of aviation.

Kinda smells like a troll.
 
Another option to keep maintenance costs low is to buy a used factory built SLSA, use a DAR to convert the certification to experimental, then take the 16 hour light sport repairman - inspection course and get your FAA Light Sport Repairman-Inspection (LSRI) certificate. That way you can legally perform and sign off maintenance and condition inspections on your airplane.

It's not for everybody, but if you're handy, have acquired the tools, enjoy working on your airplane, and have performed owner assisted annual inspections supervised by an A&P over the course of several years, it's a way to keep maintenance costs down. It has worked well for me. The key is to know your limitations and not hesitate to consult an A&P if there's a task you question your ability to competently and safely perform.
 
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