What's it worth?

OkieFlyer

OkieFlyer

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Andrew L.
So a friend of mine and glider pilot decided he's getting old is selling his glider and tow plane. He has offered to sell the tow plane to me before he lists it, and I wanted to get the opinion of the great minds of POA as to what its worth.

1962 Cessna 182E
1970 TT
570 SMOH. Overhauled in 1981
525 SPOH. Overhauled in 1992
Paint is about a 5. Painted in 1971
Interior is about a 6. Also 1971. Front seats torn. Everything else in good shape but dated.
Narco Nav/Comm, Audio Panel, and Xponder
Tactair T-101 auto pilot. Don't know if it works.
Not IFR certified.
Cleveland wheels and brakes
Hasn't flown many hours over the last couple decades, but the fella flew it a out 25 hours a year, and tried to fly it a couple hours a month. No long periods of disuse.
Complete and thorough logs.
No damage history.
Has served as a tow plane for several years, and only for one glider. About 120 total tows.

Don't have any pics right now, but what would be a best guess of its worth from what I have provided here?

Thanks
 
OkieFlyer said:
So a friend of mine and glider pilot decided he's getting old is selling his glider and tow plane. He has offered to sell the tow plane to me before he lists it, and I wanted to get the opinion of the great minds of POA as to what its worth.



1962 Cessna 182E

1970 TT

570 SMOH. Overhauled in 1981

525 SPOH. Overhauled in 1992

Paint is about a 5. Painted in 1971

Interior is about a 6. Also 1971. Front seats torn. Everything else in good shape but dated.

Narco Nav/Comm, Audio Panel, and Xponder

Tactair T-101 auto pilot. Don't know if it works.

Not IFR certified.

Cleveland wheels and brakes

Hasn't flown many hours over the last couple decades, but the fella flew it a out 25 hours a year, and tried to fly it a couple hours a month. No long periods of disuse.

Complete and thorough logs.

No damage history.

Has served as a tow plane for several years, and only for one glider. About 120 total tows.



Don't have any pics right now, but what would be a best guess of its worth from what I have provided here?



Thanks
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Tony will be along shortly to tell you to buy it and become his personal tow pilot. ;)

Honest opinion: It's a tow plane. It'd need a lot of money and work to be a traveling plane. If the price is right, and you have the additional money and time, you could fix it up.

I don't understand the engine numbers. If it had a major overhaul 570 hours ago and needed a partial 35 hours later but 11 years apart...?

Did you drop a 1 in front of the Major number? 1570?

And why did it need a major at 400 hours? Assuming it's the original engine. An early owner flogged it? If want to look at those logs and see what the heck happened and how it was fixed.

If it's at 1500+, it's going to probably make metal in the lower end soon. It's due. Budget $40K for an engine relatively soon. If you can't crap $40K the day after you buy it, walk away.

Fifty+ year old airframe with an average of 37 hours a year on it. It's going to be a labor of love and money to get it in "better than a rental" mechanical and aesthetic shape. Like most of our beloved Cessnas it's on the verge of becoming beer cans or a museum piece.

Just being honest. Even my 1975 is showing plenty of signs of age. A 1962 is getting really old. They're all a labor of love.

All depends on what he's asking for it. If it's above used-sports-car prices, walk away or know you'll put at least $50K in it to make it yours. $70K if you want it to look good and have an IFR panel and engine you can trust in the soup.

Right now it's an old tired workhorse that can still do that job and have engine work done whenever it needs it to keep it hauling gliders aloft.

Also depends upon your mission. What do you want to do with it?
 
OkieFlyer said:
So a friend of mine and glider pilot decided he's getting old is selling his glider and tow plane. He has offered to sell the tow plane to me before he lists it, and I wanted to get the opinion of the great minds of POA as to what its worth.

1962 Cessna 182E
1970 TT
570 SMOH. Overhauled in 1981
525 SPOH. Overhauled in 1992
Paint is about a 5. Painted in 1971
Interior is about a 6. Also 1971. Front seats torn. Everything else in good shape but dated.
Narco Nav/Comm, Audio Panel, and Xponder
Tactair T-101 auto pilot. Don't know if it works.
Not IFR certified.
Cleveland wheels and brakes
Hasn't flown many hours over the last couple decades, but the fella flew it a out 25 hours a year, and tried to fly it a couple hours a month. No long periods of disuse.
Complete and thorough logs.
No damage history.
Has served as a tow plane for several years, and only for one glider. About 120 total tows.

Don't have any pics right now, but what would be a best guess of its worth from what I have provided here?

Thanks
Click to expand...

50+ yr old airplane with only 1970TT, hard to believe.
30+ yr old overhaul and only 570 hrs, less than 20hrs per year.
Same since the prop overhaul.
Based on a 1971 panel, the old NARCO radios may be trash.
Maybe $20-25K for the airplane. The engine and prop are long overdue and can expect to require overhaul/replacement.
 
denverpilot said:
Tony will be along shortly to tell you to buy it and become his personal tow pilot. ;)

Honest opinion: It's a tow plane. It'd need a lot of money and work to be a traveling plane. If the price is right, and you have the additional money and time, you could fix it up.

I don't understand the engine numbers. If it had a major overhaul 570 hours ago and needed a partial 35 hours later but 11 years apart...?

Did you drop a 1 in front of the Major number? 1570?

And why did it need a major at 400 hours? Assuming it's the original engine. An early owner flogged it? If want to look at those logs and see what the heck happened and how it was fixed.

If it's at 1500+, it's going to probably make metal in the lower end soon. It's due. Budget $40K for an engine relatively soon. If you can't crap $40K the day after you buy it, walk away.

Fifty+ year old airframe with an average of 37 hours a year on it. It's going to be a labor of love and money to get it in "better than a rental" mechanical and aesthetic shape. Like most of our beloved Cessnas it's on the verge of becoming beer cans or a museum piece.

Just being honest. Even my 1975 is showing plenty of signs of age. A 1962 is getting really old. They're all a labor of love.

All depends on what he's asking for it. If it's above used-sports-car prices, walk away or know you'll put at least $50K in it to make it yours. $70K if you want it to look good and have an IFR panel and engine you can trust in the soup.

Right now it's an old tired workhorse that can still do that job and have engine work done whenever it needs it to keep it hauling gliders aloft.

Also depends upon your mission. What do you want to do with it?
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Just to clarify the numbers a bit:

Engine was overhauled and prop replaced at around 1350 hrs., and all engine accessories replaced. This was in 1981.

The prop was overhauled in 1992. at around 1395 engine hrs. 45 hrs on prop.

From the 1981 overhaul to 1992 when the prop was overhauled the plane was only flown approx. 45 hrs. Since then the plane has flown an average of 23 hrs/yr. Not enough, but it is what it is.

From 1981 to 1992, the plane was basically a hangar queen, as the gentleman who owned was getting older and didn't fly much anymore. The story is that he would have buddies go fly the plane once in a while, just to get the oil moving around. Eventually, my friend (the glider pilot) bought the plane, I believe 10 years ago. He used it as a tow plane for his glider only, and other recreational use. He did an average of about 12 tows per year over that time, for a total of 120 tows. I towed a few times for him, and you could barely tell his light little glider was back there., so I personally don't believe it worked very hard at all in this mission. That brings us to now.

Frankly, rather than a workhorse, I tend to think it suffered more from under use for the majority of it's life.

Also, the king radios were swapped out for the narcos sometime in the 90's I think. Can't remember now. Spent hours going through the logs, and it's all running together.

Thank you for your honest assessment.
 
BillTIZ said:
50+ yr old airplane with only 1970TT, hard to believe.
30+ yr old overhaul and only 570 hrs, less than 20hrs per year.
Same since the prop overhaul.
Based on a 1971 panel, the old NARCO radios may be trash.
Maybe $20-25K for the airplane. The engine and prop are long overdue and can expect to require overhaul/replacement.
Click to expand...

If I hadn't looked at the 50 years of logs myself, I wouldn't have believed it either. Never missed an annual in all that time either.

The radios have worked for the 10 hrs. or so that I flew it. I've always heard that Narco sucks though. Didn't they go belly up?

I might also add that all compressions are 68+. #1 cylinder was replaced last year. It was on the low side, but still in spec. Replaced it anyway.

Engine uses about a quart in 8 hrs.

Mechanic said it hasn't been making any metal yet.

Thanks again.
 
That helps.

Workhorse was more a feeling of where it is in the chain of life right now. It can be one, and would probably make a glider club or skydive place a good aircraft.

The Narcos are a liability at this point. They'll work as long as they work and won't be worth repairing when they die.

I know folks who truly would love it as their personal bump around and they'd take the risk on the engine after a REALLY thorough pre-purchase inspection, and a really detailed squawk list.

They'd put their own sweat equity into it and fix it up over time.

But they'd also know they might need an engine tomorrow. And they'd get a baseline oil analysis program going immediately.

Other folks, wouldn't want it. It'd be a hassle to them and an eyesore to passengers.

A lot of it depends on your values and what you want to be doing. At the right price on that plane and a lot of time on my hands (retirement! Ha!) and at least one AI friend, that'd be a lot of fun hours tinkering in the hangar.

Interiors can be done. Panels maybe too or at least prep work. Paint, I wouldn't try myself.

I had a friend who had an ancient 172 long ago. He was a mechanic at heart and still works in a machine shop in his 60s for play money.

He kept that thing mechanically perfect but man it was the ugliest damn airplane you ever saw, paint and interior wise. He loved flying it. Called it the "blue bellied money-sucker". Ha. He didn't give much for it and he didn't care how it looked. Just that the engine and airframe were good.

The debate on whether someone will enjoy maintaining and upgrading a really old airframe is a similar debate over whether they'd enjoy building an experimental.

Folks like different reasons to go to the airport. ;)

Just don't get in over your head because it looks like a good deal, if it's not what you want.

A friend found a C-182 of 70s vintage that the guy had put a NEW (straight out of the crate, he bought it years before as a spare) engine on, newish avionics, and an updated but not new interior for a number I won't even post here because it makes even me cry. He was half heartedly looking, already had a C-150, and the deal literally fell in his lap.

Old guy who owned it decided to dump it quick, and that it was time to hang it up. He didn't need the money so he put a low enough price on it that selling it wouldn't be a hassle.

It happens. And even if that's the extreme, there's lots of great C-182s out there changing hands all the time.
 
What is the useful load ?

This plane may be a great place to start for someone who wants to build himself a nice light 182.

More important question:

How much does he want for the discus ?
 
Thanks guys.

I'll just have to do some soul searching on this one. If I had more money, it wouldn't be so difficult, but alas, I'm just a working class schlub with champagne wishes and caviar dreams.
 
weilke said:
What is the useful load ?

This plane may be a great place to start for someone who wants to build himself a nice light 182.

More important question:

How much does he want for the discus ?
Click to expand...

I agree. In fact, I was thinking if the autopilot doesn't work, I'd tear it out and lose a little more weight. Probably wouldn't be worth trying to fix anyway. The more guys with golf clubs I can cram in there the better.

Useful is right around 1100#. Don't have the w&b in front of me at the moment.

Don't know what he wants for the discus. I would be glad to inquire if you are interested.
 
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Looking at the trade papers and controller,might help. I would guess it's worth somewhere in the 30s. To many things that could go wrong. You might want to fly it as a VFR time builder.
 
Needing paint and interior as well as avionics, with a 25 yr old engine and prop overhaul, I'd say be careful! :nono:
If you want an as-is VFR only airplane and don't care about the looks or radios, it will probably be OK. But, if you are thinking of putting in an updated panel, paint and interior, you will have to buy it cheap or you are better off buying one that's ready to go. :D
From what you've described, I think it's probably a $30K airplane.:dunno:
 
frfly172 said:
Looking at the trade papers and controller,might help. I would guess it's worth somewhere in the 30s. To many things that could go wrong. You might want to fly it as a VFR time builder.
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Yeah, I've been looking at trade-a-plane, controller, and barnstormers for 3 or 4 years. I know what people are asking, but I don't know what they've been getting. I'm a VFR guy anyway. I'll probably get instrument rated eventually, but I don't have any interest in flying in clouds. However, I would like to do it at some point if we ever decide to do some real travelling. I'm a 100 hr pilot and I do need to gain more experience and fly some hours. I'm kind of tired of driving 40 miles to rent a 172 for $140/hr. A 182 in the hanger 2 miles from the house would be niiiiice:)

Typical flights would be 220nm round trips to visit my parents and about the same distance to visit the in-laws maybe twice per month with my wife and two small children. The rest will be just buzzing around for fun, hitting all the fly-in golf courses I can find, and getting $100 hamburgers and pancakes. Would like to fly to Oshkosh from time to time as well. I don't plan to do any regular long cross country flying at this time.

What I was shooting for is a plane that I can build experience in, without breaking the bank wide open, and have the capability to haul my family around a little to visit the grandparents VFR style.

The old paint and interior is 100% fine with me. People of my means can't be too concerned with looks. It's the old a** engine that's got me bugged a little. I think I may back slowly away from it, but I won't be running away. Y'all got me scared of it now ;)
 
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N747JB said:
Needing paint and interior as well as avionics, with a 25 yr old engine and prop overhaul, I'd say be careful! :nono:
If you want an as-is VFR only airplane and don't care about the looks or radios, it will probably be OK. But, if you are thinking of putting in an updated panel, paint and interior, you will have to buy it cheap or you are better off buying one that's ready to go. :D
From what you've described, I think it's probably a $30K airplane.:dunno:
Click to expand...

$30k was what I was thinking too.
 
Alright, I guess I'll divulge the asking price now. 38K

Sound like too much to y'all?
 
In this market? If it's as much of a rag as you describe, $25-$30k, maybe less.
 
It's been dragging gliders on hot days for years. It's worth 20 grand tops. It should be in Cuba with the old cars.
 
Henning said:
Yes, for that you can get a pristine straight tail.
Click to expand...

Henning, I haven't flown a straight tail. They look about as narrow as a 172 and they don't look like they have any back seat room. Is this true, or is it an optical illusion? Also, don't they have a good bit less useful load than the 1962+ models?

Here are some pics:

airplane1.jpg


airplane2.jpg


airplane3.jpg


airplane4.jpg


airplane5.jpg
 
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No illusion, that is true, they have the cabin width of a 172, the back seat is not bad though, and unlike a 172, you can put 2 full sized adults back there.

If you want a wide body, I would suggest you look at $65-$75k 182s and save yourself the $50-$80k you'll likely spend in the next 5 years on this one, or if you ever want to sell it.

There is a potential I could revise my outlook with a close inspection of the plane, but from what you posted, the likelihood I would is even odds at best. If the airplane is a one owner and lived in a hangar its whole life, the odds get better. It doesn't appear abused, and if the airframe itself is in superlative condition, it could be worth what he is asking, and if you are looking for a long term plane, would be worth upgrading.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Alright, I guess I'll divulge the asking price now. 38K

Sound like too much to y'all?
Click to expand...


Yes. The vast majority of an aircraft's value these days is in the engine and panel.

Airframes, even relatively clean ones, to put engines and avionics into are sitting on ramps and in hangars not flying, all over the country.
 
Henning said:
No illusion, that is true, they have the cabin width of a 172, the back seat is not bad though, and unlike a 172, you can put 2 full sized adults back there.

If you want a wide body, I would suggest you look at $65-$75k 182s and save yourself the $50-$80k you'll likely spend in the next 5 years on this one, or if you ever want to sell it.

There is a potential I could revise my outlook with a close inspection of the plane, but from what you posted, the likelihood I would is even odds at best. If the airplane is a one owner and lived in a hangar its whole life, the odds get better. It doesn't appear abused, and if the airframe itself is in superlative condition, it could be worth what he is asking, and if you are looking for a long term plane, would be worth upgrading.
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Thanks Henning.

I think it's a two owner. From what I can tell, the original owner (I believe it was the late owner of El Reno Aviation in El Reno, OK) Had the plane from 62 until somewhere around 2003-2004. Then my friend bought it for towing.

Tough choice.
 
denverpilot said:
Yes. The vast majority of an aircraft's value these days is in the engine and panel.

Airframes, even relatively clean ones, to put engines and avionics into are sitting on ramps and in hangars not flying, all over the country.
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Thanks. I hear ya.

After years of looking, I suppose I got a little excited about coming across one with low time SMOH. Of course there had to be a catch.

I also suppose it's easier for me to look past certain shortcomings, given my more modest means, just so I can have something to fly. In turn, my mentality is probably more likely to get me bit in the arse.

In truth, as much as I love talking to the good folks here at POA, the more answers and opinions I get here, the more I think I should just give up the flying bit. Honesty is so discouraging, lol.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Thanks. I hear ya.

After years of looking, I suppose I got a little excited about coming across one with low time SMOH. Of course there had to be a catch.

I also suppose it's easier for me to look past certain shortcomings, given my more modest means, just so I can have something to fly. In turn, my mentality is probably more likely to get me bit in the arse.

In truth, as much as I love talking to the good folks here at POA, the more answers and opinions I get here, the more I think I should just give up the flying bit. Honesty is so discouraging, lol.
Click to expand...

Start reading.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77195

I know a 172P flying on the original engine from 1981 that has never been apart. Its not a money issue either as the owner just put a GDL88, GTN750, remote audio panel, remote transponder, new paint and interior.


To say your proposed 182 will be a giant money pit, who really knows? How much a year can you afford for maintenance?

I've seen aircraft bought like that and yeah it isn't new, but flown several hundreds of hours with just replacing a battery. But to say the prop, exhaust, mags, engine, spark plugs, bladders are all junk and need to be replaced without even looking at it is a stretch.

Mechanics, pilots and owners get "newitis" when the cowls are off and parts starting showing up that are shiny. ***That's shiny now we much replace _______ while we are at it.***


How many hours a year are you flying? It rarely makes financial sense to own. What about a partnership?
 
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bnt83 said:
How many hours a year are you flying? It rarely makes financial sense to own. What about a partnership?
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Not many. Renting doesn't make much sense to me if a fella wants to fly very much at all. I'll gladly pay thousands more to have the freedom that only owning your own plane affords. Trick is to find the maximum amount of plane for the budget. I just really hate flushing my hard earned green stuff down the FBO toilet. If I'm gonna get raped, I'd like to have something to show for it other than a few hours in the log book. Owning seems very much more fulfilling than renting, however challenging it may be.

Hope I'm not being to cantankerous for y'all.
 
Get a good mechanic to look at it and offer the guy $30K subject to you having an annual inspection done and him paying for squawks. :D
It's a decent looking airplane and if you stick to VFR it will be fine, throw some sheepskin covers on the seats and go! :D


OkieFlyer said:
Not many. Renting doesn't make much sense to me if a fella wants to fly very much at all. I'll gladly pay thousands more to have the freedom that only owning your own plane affords. Trick is to find the maximum amount of plane for the budget. I just really hate flushing my hard earned green stuff down the FBO toilet. If I'm gonna get raped, I'd like to have something to show for it other than a few hours in the log book. Owning seems very much more fulfilling than renting, however challenging it may be.

Hope I'm not being to cantankerous for y'all.
Click to expand...
 
N747JB said:
Get a good mechanic to look at it and offer the guy $30K subject to you having an annual inspection done and him paying for squawks. :D
It's a decent looking airplane and if you stick to VFR it will be fine, throw some sheepskin covers on the seats and go! :D
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Now you're talkin'. Heck, he's an 80 year old millionaire. Maybe I can get him to throw in a paint job, some Garmin gear, and some sheepskins for the price.

Come to think of it, I believe I'm the only one who's flown it since the last annual back in May. Got about 10 hours in it myself.
 
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OkieFlyer said:
Thanks. I hear ya.

After years of looking, I suppose I got a little excited about coming across one with low time SMOH. Of course there had to be a catch.

I also suppose it's easier for me to look past certain shortcomings, given my more modest means, just so I can have something to fly. In turn, my mentality is probably more likely to get me bit in the arse.

In truth, as much as I love talking to the good folks here at POA, the more answers and opinions I get here, the more I think I should just give up the flying bit. Honesty is so discouraging, lol.
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Low SMOH but past calendar TBO. This one will require a very close inspection to determine if it is a worthwhile deal or not, without looking closely, what is know is mostly against this one, but like I said, it all depends on the inspection and your intentions. The engine I give 7:5 odds on running another 1500hrs over failing in the next 100. It really depends on the storage, and an Oklahoma plane has a fair chance of passing both airframe and engine critique. You will likely have to do some seals on the engine though. If you find yourself going through a lot of oil, you probably need a new crank nose seal, they dry out and the pressure blows by it and shoots the oil out of the vent. This is no big deal, I paid under $600 to have both replaced on my 310. You'll likely have some carb issues and induction leaks, the belt... Nickel and dime stuff that dries out, shrinks, and deteriorates with time.
 
You have flown it?


It is easily worth $35k. Maybe his $38k.

If it flies straight, the mechanic likes it. Buy it and enjoy it. You ain't going to find a nicer one that you know the history of, for less money





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JoseCuervo said:
You have flown it?


It is easily worth $35k. Maybe his $38k.

If it flies straight, the mechanic likes it. Buy it and enjoy it. You ain't going to find a nicer one that you know the history of, for less money





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yes. I have flown it about 10 hours.

I'm going to get another shop to look at it, just to get another set of eyes on it. I will assist with the inspection. Then I'll make the call.

I sure appreciate the comments and opinions guys.
 
I love a project plane with good bones. This one sounds promising. Good luck
 
Hi OkieFlyer.

I would chime in at about $35,000. Definitely have a mechanic look it over though. It has flown more than a lot of the airplanes on our field. There is no magic number on yearly hours. An airplane flown an hour every weekend would only accumulate 52 hours a year, and an hour a weekend would be plenty enough to keep the engine in good shape.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Yes. I have flown it about 10 hours.



I'm going to get another shop to look at it, just to get another set of eyes on it. I will assist with the inspection. Then I'll make the call.



I sure appreciate the comments and opinions guys.
Click to expand...


Is the current mechanic the one you would use long term?

Unless he has a reason to lie to you, I likely would talk to him and take his word.

There are a lot of people on POA who make these things more difficult than they need to.

You trust the seller.
You trust the plane (for 10 hours).
You are going to trust the mechanic.

Write a check and start enjoying ownership.


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