What's Best, Cheapest Way Reach Lic. & Quals??

Windpane

Windpane

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Windpane
I'm trying to get through the education and training as cheap as possible...and the best way possible.

So far I've gathered that it's best to do the written portion online, and that will save money and maybe time. Is that true? What's the cheapest, best price I should expect going that route?

Know any other tips to knock down price, and save time?

I'm used to systematic researching, and I figure that I can research substantially before I pay anyone a dime, so that way when it comes to paying dime, I get it right the first time. Hehe. Figure I'll know a large amount about ATC language, instrument reading, plane types, maintenance, check lists, dept/arrival procedures, interpretation of the maps, maneuverability of the planes, engine/prop ratios, safety... I won't be a walking dummie by the time I get in to see the CFI's. :fcross:
 
From your description you understand one of the things you should do: learn as much as you can outside the plane before you get in it. If you spend flying time learning basic things you could have read about, you are losing efficiency. Another tip is to plan to schedule your flying to be at an aggressive, but not extreme pace. If you plan to fly 1-2 times per week you will likely need more flight hours to complete your certificate/rating than if you flew double that.
 
You’ve asked for two things. Do you want best or do you want cheapest? They are not the same.
 
Okay, why though? Because if going to slowly through the flight hours, I'll forget from day to day, week to week? So shoot for 10 hours a week?
 
bflynn said:
You’ve asked for two things. Do you want best or do you want cheapest? They are not the same.
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The best cheap route. Hehe. It's the value route so to speak, eh. I'm trying to crush $9k costs down to $5k or there somewhere's there abouts.

Actually let's just say the cheapest. Yeap. :thumbsup: I'm good at figuring things out, so if it's not as high quality, I improvise better than 90% of the population. I'm intuitive, inventive, inquisitive, figures things out fast and thorough. I better go cheap, and use these skills of mine.
 
I'm sure you'll get a lot of good suggestions here. But my honest advice is to set this question aside and simply accept that this is going to be an expensive venture, that will cost however much it ends up costing.

There are two reasons for this:

1) Even the most prepared person, who has done all the reading ahead of time, can figure things out and improvise, the most intuitive etc. etc., *will* encounter roadblocks, things that just seem to not be clicking. For many people, it's landings. You'll get that feeling like you're practicing and practicing and practicing and just not getting it. If you're simultaneously thinking of all the money you're wasting during this process (and hitting that wall *is* part of the process), this will both sink your spirit and disrupt the effectiveness of training.

2) Once you get your license, you will face a million decisions as pilot in command, every time you fly. And *many* of them will involve a tradeoff between safety and cost. (Fuel up now, or go another 50 miles? Fly today through that weather, or book a hotel for the night? etc.). It is *imperative* to develop a healthy attitude towards the relationship between money and safety, and that sometimes you've just gotta spend it to stay alive. This is irrespective of your intelligence or skill. Start building that healthy attitude early.

Just something to keep in mind.

I can't fathom getting anything for $5k.

Best of luck!

Edit: yes, fly often... 10 hrs per week would be great, if you're in a part of the country where the weather is that good and you can do two flights a day.
Keep in mind that your brain will get fried after about 1.5 hours of flight lesson, and past that (often) diminishing returns.
 
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Find the best instructor you can...seriously. As a beginning student, I know it is hard to know what makes a good instructor vs bad. Ask around, fly an “intro” lesson with a few different ones. It will be worth the effort. Even if the great instructor has a higher hourly rate, you will likely pay less in the long run if you learn from someone who will teach it right the fist time.
 
Kath said all that much more kindly than I would have, so kudos to her. I’ll simply point out a thing or two.

First, even if you are more intuitive, intelligent, better looking, etc. than 90% of the population, that doesn’t mean you have a 90% advantage when it comes to being a pilot. Only a tiny fraction of the population even attempts this, and of those who do the drop-out rate is very high. Don’t assume you can finish training for less time and money than average.

Also, trusting your intuition can get you killed in a plane. The intuitive action is often incorrect.

You will learn in training about 5 hazardous attitudes. Here’s your first aviation pop quiz: which hazardous attitude does you statement display?

$5k is not realistic. Plane rental plus instructor will cost at least $150 per hour. The minimum required hours is 40 by regulation, so that’s $6k right there. The average, though, isn’t 40, it’s over 60. Plus there will be expenses for training materials, headset, etc., plus exam costs. A checkride can cost over $700 by itself.

Bottom line - mistakes and inadequate training can kill you, and not just you but your passengers as well. Spend whatever it takes to become a safe pilot.
 
You won't be able to teach yourself to fly safely any more than you will be able to teach yourself brain surgery. No matter how many books or videos you consult in advance. You will need an instructor and mentor. Find a good one. Then use them to help you assemble the necessary self-study materials that will help you make the most of your flight instruction, and filter the wheat from the chaff. Do fly as often as you can, but not more than you can absorb in a week. This is highly individual, but many find 2-3 lessons a week is learning-efficient. And do hit the books between lessons, as suggested by your instructor, to get the most out of your flight time. It will take the time it takes. There are not really any "shortcuts", but there are ways to waste your instruction time and draw things out.

The goal is to be a proficient, safe pilot with good procedural habits. The goal is not to become the pilot who earned their license in the least amount of time or spent the least amount of money. I flown with the latter type of pilot...once only, and never again.
 
How often will your budget let you fly after you have your license?

While it’s more efficient to train several times per week, if you can’t continue to fly at the same rate there is risk that your skills will atrophy. If you train at the same rate you will later fly, your skill retention will of necessity come to match the intervals between post-training flights.
 
Oh, and don’t forget the cost of a medical. Might be a hundred bucks, might be thousands depending on your medical history. Be sure you can get a medical before spending money on training.

And don’t get the exam unless you KNOW you’ll pass. Sport Pilot is a decent option that doesn’t require a medical, but if you ever get a medical denial you’ll be locked out of the SP option.
 
Windpane said:
The best cheap route. Hehe. It's the value route so to speak, eh. I'm trying to crush $9k costs down to $5k or there somewhere's there abouts.

Actually let's just say the cheapest. Yeap. :thumbsup: I'm good at figuring things out, so if it's not as high quality, I improvise better than 90% of the population. I'm intuitive, inventive, inquisitive, figures things out fast and thorough. I better go cheap, and use these skills of mine.
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While best & cheap are not the same, best & expensive are also not the same either. Best value is what you are after.

A lot depends on who you pick as the instructor. There is a temptation among many new students to find a jet jockey CFI who flies for an airline or a fighter jet because that sounds cool. What you are looking for is an educator, not a top gun pilot. Your CFI will rarely ever touch the controls during training (that is another signature of a good instructor), and most of your learning will come from how he or she explains things that makes sense to you.
 
Windpane said:
Okay, why though? Because if going to slowly through the flight hours, I'll forget from day to day, week to week? So shoot for 10 hours a week?
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No doubt people are different but I never had much trouble with forgetting. If you can afford 10 hours a week, that's fantastic. Myself I probably did it on one or two hours a week. With a break for a year or so. This was when I was getting my private. I still did it in 50 hours or so.
 
A better way to phrase your question would be "What's the most efficient way for me to become a safe, competent pilot?" ...and you've got some good answers to that already. My thoughts, some which have already been articulated...

1. Download, read, learn, study, and understand the material in the various FAA publications, especially the "Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge" and the "Aeronautical Information Manual." Watch fewer videos, post less on forums unless you have specific questions about things in those texts. All are welcome here.. not trying to chase you away... just want you to use your time wisely and efficientlly.

2. Save up enough money so that having to interrupt your flight training dur to lack of funds would NOT ever be necessary. I'd recommend a target of $7500 as the minimum amount to have on hand, and more is better. If you get through for less, you'll have extra cash on hand for more flying, investing in the future, or emergencies. You'll probably need more.

3. Fly at least twice a week with a good, exacting CFI. An $80/hr instructor may very well save you money in the long run over a $50/hr instructor if he truly pushes you, holds you to high standards, and fully briefs and debriefs you for each and every lesson and the less expensive CFI ends up being more of a flying buddy. Of course, you could get lucky and find one that punches all the right buttons AND is $50/hr. I'm just saying that cheaper isn't always cheaper, and it's even less likely to be better. Your goal is "better."
 
Windpane said:
I'm intuitive, inventive, inquisitive, figures things out fast and thorough.
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These are great traits! Use them to your advantage...but be cautious as these traits can easily be accompanied by attitudes hazardous to your health in an airplane.

While there is always opportunity to refine training to make it higher quality and more efficient through better preparation, new technology, etc, the industry has gotten pretty good at identifying the things that kill pilots. Being inventive as a student while you are in the plane is probably not going to serve you well. I don’t think that’s what you meant, but just in case.

Now one thing that I will recommend since you have asked specifically about learning radio coms...Pilotedge.net. They have a bunch of very helpful online seminars covering airspace and communications. Even if you never use their service with a flight simulator, it is great information. Personally, I use the service and every instructor I’ve had is thankful as ATC and coms have been a non-issue.
 
It hasn't been mentioned yet, so here it goes. Do not use a computer-based flight simulator until you are training for your IR (Instrument Rating). Using your home computer based FS can teach you bad habits, which your CFI will have to spend time (= $$) to break you of those bad habits. Once in IR training, the FS has some positive benefits.

The problem is that you (without the CFI present) can't recognize a bad habit...

-Skip
 
Windpane said:
I'm good at figuring things out, so if it's not as high quality, I improvise better than 90% of the population.
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Hubris kills in the cockpit. Humility serves better. As I counseled my undergraduates during 35 years of teaching and research in the academy, "confidence stems from mastery, not the other way around." Find a good mentor and soak up their knowledge and advice.
 
Depending on who you ask, the student pilot dropout rate in the United States is anywhere from 50% to 70%, one of the highest among all nations.
 
Try to find the cheapest rental possible. Find a club to joint and fly often. Ideally you can join a tach time club that has a Cessna 150 or something similarly sized. $5k is on the extreme cheap end. If you did it all in 40 hours of airplane time and 40 hours of CFI time, you’d have to make sure the rate of the airplane + CFI is less than $125. Typically a CFI is at least $50/hr and you’d be hard pressed to find a $75/hr rental.

This discounts checkride costs, written test costs, medical costs, purchasing necessary charts and equipment, etc.
 
Windpane said:
Actually let's just say the cheapest. Yeap. :thumbsup: I'm good at figuring things out, so if it's not as high quality, I improvise better than 90% of the population. I'm intuitive, inventive, inquisitive, figures things out fast and thorough. I better go cheap, and use these skills of mine.
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You sound amazing. Any CFI worth his 100LL would be wise to pay you for the privilege of instructing the top 10%.

I on the other hand being in the bottom 90% of the spectrum spent at least 5K to get my PPL in 2000 and I completed it fewer hours than the national average.

I’d sign you off today if you were local.
 
Windpane said:
The best cheap route. Hehe. It's the value route so to speak, eh. I'm trying to crush $9k costs down to $5k or there somewhere's there abouts.

Actually let's just say the cheapest. Yeap. :thumbsup: I'm good at figuring things out, so if it's not as high quality, I improvise better than 90% of the population. I'm intuitive, inventive, inquisitive, figures things out fast and thorough. I better go cheap, and use these skills of mine.
Click to expand...

IDK, but if you are truly all that then I would have thought you would have already figured a way to make more than enough money to go first class.

I'm a lot of that stuff too but I'm also kinda lazy and often don't make the best choices in life. So there is that...
 
Okay thanks, all. I learned what I needed to know.
 
What will you do if there is something you can't handle?

You want to knock down the price and save time.

Re: Saving Time - do you mean calendar time as in you want to get done in X weeks or less? Or do you mean billable time? If you mean calendar time then you want to be at place that always has a plane and instructor available. Having your own plane solves the 1st part (but is a much higher expense up front). Being at a place with aircraft and instructors always at the ready sounds like a large flight program...high costs.

Re: Knock down the cost - lets hope you mean to get really good training for less than the next guy - right? Here its finding a good instructor and one who can train independently as often as you can fly. Take my CFI for example. He does this on his own as his primary job. If you called him tomorrow I am sure you would pay $40/hr which is half of the cost just 40 miles east. He will be willing to fly more than you can handle. With the exception of the coming winter I am sure you would be done within 2 months. That would be doing at least 6hrs a week. But you need to bring your own plane. So there is that other cost again.

Windpane said:
Okay thanks, all. I learned what I needed to know.
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One of the first things you might want to research is the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes. Your initial post came off as a combo of Macho/Invulnerable/Anti-Authority...not 100% on each but enough to warrant the responses you got. I don't think it possible that you learned all you need to know. So why bail? These guys will give fantastic advice if you can set Humility=On for a while.

Here is my suggestion:
1. Take a discovery flight or first 1hr training flight (get a logbook). Could be the best $200 you've ever spent.
2. If you still like it. Spend another $185 on the medical but if you find yourself answering 'Y' to stuff about any drugs or alcohol or ADHD, etc...do not submit it. Come back here for advice.
3. Download the free stuff (PHAK, FAR/AIM, FAA Aviation Wx, etc) and start studying it.
4. If you just researched all that you can pass the FAA Written.
5. If you want a online class to help...here's a secret...they will all use the actual FAA questions. Its about impossible to fail. Pick any one. I used King and even thought outdated in graphics and modern filming standards they did a fantastic job and I would use them again.
6. Try to find a club you can get into or buy into. They usually have a instructor and the plane rental rates can be considerably lower. And usually the club instructor's rate will be cheaper than a big flight school.

...I don't see how you will do this for under $6000 and be thinking over $10K if you are in a high demand training area.
 
Hey, thanks again, all. I got it in range. I'll proceed from here. :thumbsup:
 
Skip Miller said:
It hasn't been mentioned yet, so here it goes. Do not use a computer-based flight simulator until you are training for your IR (Instrument Rating). Using your home computer based FS can teach you bad habits, which your CFI will have to spend time (= $$) to break you of those bad habits. Once in IR training, the FS has some positive benefits.

The problem is that you (without the CFI present) can't recognize a bad habit...

-Skip
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Have to disagree there. Think about all the things you have to be able to act as PIC on a VFR flight. Stick and rudder is a relatively small part of it. Flight planning, navigation, comms, airspace awareness, weather, dealing with the briefing for a the flight, reading a sectional, etc. There's a LOT to do besides manipulate the flight controls. Do PC-based flight sims replicate the specific torque required to manipulate the flight controls in the airplane? No. Does it matter? I'd argue it doesn't because it's not hard to tweak it once you get to the airplane, and in either case (whether we agree on the flight control issue or not), there's a bajilliion other things you can practice in the sim.

"Don't use a sim until instrument training, you'll learn bad habits," is an argument which I run into quite a bit, usually from people who were exposed to some _awful_ old desktop sims during their training. As a result, they've written them off, despite being unaware of what those sims can achieve today. There's countless examples of people working the flight controls AND COMMS for their entire discovery flight, doing a great job in the process....all because of the work they did on a sim before hand.

Times have changed. This notion that a sim shouldn't be used during PPL training needs to go, IMO. Your brain adapts to the differences between sim controls and r/w flight controls very, very quickly. It's a lot like the ability that drivers have to swap from a Hertz rental car to an Avis rental car and then to their daily driver at home without being completely lost at the wheel.
 
Yeah, sims. New controls, balances, angles, props, panels, wrong position in the chair... It can be adapted to, and so can the next rig and the one after that. My specialty is adaption. :)

I personally think that total research and sim practice is a step in the right direction...personally. What tops it off though is, to be honest here ;), physical fitness and an iron dietary regimen. All that these things do is improve the ability to perceive, remember, recall, calculate, and execute quickly and smoothly...continuously wit stamina...which is adaption...a constant level of adaptation...that you don't get when all of those things are not done.

I could see if I was so lethargic about myself, and I'd learn how to do the SIM, I'd get into a real plane, and blank out or something...totally incapable of adapting. Others might be lethargic, and they may prove someone right about the failings of sim practice. It's not me though, and I'm not superstitious about it. ;) Just sayin'.
 
I am not a CFI but here's my $0.02. Take it for what it is worth. The danger in trying to learn by using sims in advance of getting in the real plane involves the law of primacy. The way you learn something the first time tends to stick. Learn it wrong in the sim and that will negatively transfer to the real plane. And you WILL learn it wrong in the sim first. I can almost guarantee it.

Now personally, I found climbing into a real plane was so different from the sim experience I had before, there wasn't that much negative transfer. That is where adaptability comes in. Be ready to toss out everything you thought you knew about flying from a sim. Once you get experience in the real thing and guidance from an instructor, you can then adapt your sim usage to reinforce those real world lessons and start to get some tangible benefit from the sim. Sims are outstanding procedural practice tools. They are great at exploring broad concepts. They are good at getting familiar with instrumentation. I even hesitate to mention instruments, because the biggest gripe I hear from instructors about simmers is that they spend WAY too much time looking at the instruments. You need an airspeed indicator and a knowledge of air speeds appropriate for the plane. The rest your flight instruments are outside the window.

Since I have a feeling you will use a sim, here's one last piece of advice. Stay out of the jets. Stick to the Cessna...and don't worry about learning to land the plane in the sim. As good as sims have gotten, they still stink at stick and rudder.
 
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Okay, I like your advice. I usually like the advice from the pros here.

I think that when there reality of SHTF in a real plane should cause some adaptable re-learning processes...if a new pilot is not physically a bum. Lot of people are sedentary, so that qualifies lots for that level. I'm always learning and re-learning sports, athletic adventurism, athletic extreme jobs, and just learning and adapting. But that's just me, and I think that the SIM primacy issue that the pilots here are grimacing at is a real issue that I'm going to look for in the process.

I'll even try the jet SIM. LOL I'm just realistic which is different, and I'll be a damn good student for any CFI regardless of which route I take. :)

No offense was meant to anyone here. I gotta hear it like it is from the field of aviation, and I'll slip my .24 in where and when I can if it makes sense.


:eek2::fcross:
 
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