What would you do?

JordanDelaney

JordanDelaney

Pre-Flight
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
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77
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Upstate, NY
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Display name:
oswego12344
Hey guys,

I wrote a new post on my blog today but I'll copy paste here:

"Today I was faced with a decision. Below is the METAR I was looking at with the computer at the FBO, trying to consider whether or not to go for today's flight.

KSYR 062254Z 26015G22KT 10SM FEW050 BKN070 12/01 A2993 RMK AO2 PK WND 26028/2159 SLP133 T01220011

Flyable? Yes. VFR? Yes. The METAR before this one was issued at 2154Z with winds 280@15 gusting to 27 knots. That is not flyable (in my opinion), and it is also against the club SOPs to fly one of their aircraft in that kind of wind condition.

As I try to figure out what to do, I take a walk outside to get a feel for the wind. It's strong, it feels stronger than it says it is. It also feels like it is a straight up 90º crosswind from the left. A bad idea for flying. To go or not to go... to go or not to go.

Well, I decided no go for this one. And as a matter of fact, as I walked back into the FBO building, the agent informed me that the aircraft was grounded for maintenance (not sure what yet, probably an oil change). So, although I did not know it, it was not my decision. But as a low time private pilot, it is not a wise idea to venture into such wild wind conditions at nighttime. Furthermore, I haven't had too much experience in such wind. It is better to work your way up incrementally, rather than jump right into it.

So, what would YOU have done in this situation as PIC in a single engine piston? Leave your decision in the comments!"

So, what would you have done? I'm really curious to get some answers from fellow pilots!
 
I am a pilot of over 40 years and nearly 10,000 hours experience with ATP and CFI tickets, so what I would do isn't relevant. The only question is what you should do, and unless the Hovitos Indians are closing in with spears and poison dart blowguns, cancelling is never wrong, so you did not make the wrong decision.

Could you have flown safely? I have no idea. Neither has anyone else here. If you weren't comfortable with the conditions, one option might have been to take an instructor up with you. Then you would have been able to find out in a safe way whether you could handle those conditions or not, and store that information for future reference. But choosing not to fly until conditions are more to your likely is, with the exception noted above, always a safe choice, and it doesn't sound like the Hovitos Indians were closing in on the FBO.
 
ejensen said:
Purpose of the flight?
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Just a cross-country, the reason I was so on the fence about going was because the TAF promised calmer winds within the hour. But that's not what it felt like outside! Even as I write this post 5 hours later, I can still hear the winds howling out there.

Ron Levy said:
I am a pilot of over 40 years and nearly 10,000 hours experience with ATP and CFI tickets, so what I would do isn't relevant. The only question is what you should do, and unless the Hovitos Indians are closing in with spears and poison dart blowguns, cancelling is never wrong, so you did not make the wrong decision.

Could you have flown safely? I have no idea. Neither has anyone else here. If you weren't comfortable with the conditions, one option might have been to take an instructor up with you. Then you would have been able to find out in a safe way whether you could handle those conditions or not, and store that information for future reference. But choosing not to fly until conditions are more to your likely is, with the exception noted above, always a safe choice, and it doesn't sound like the Hovitos Indians were closing in on the FBO.
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Definitely a good point. Once I begin training for my IR I will have to convince my instructor to go up with me when the wind is howling like it was today!
 
ejensen said:
Purpose of the flight?
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Doesn't matter. Even if it's an emergency flight like a Lifeline, it does no one any service if you crash. If it's beyond your abilities, it's beyond your abilities.

Taking the mission into account is more commonly called "get-there-itis," and it's a dangerous attitude.

I might have considered the flight if the winds were right down the runway. Not with a direct crosswind and gusts. But I'm not the OP, so my opinion on that doesn't matter.
 
MAKG1 said:
I might have considered the flight if the winds were right down the runway. Not with a direct crosswind and gusts. But I'm not the OP, so my opinion on that doesn't matter.
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I was thinking the same thing. But, the METAR was saying right down the runway. When I walked outside though, it was a different story. There was no doubt that the METAR was off.
 
Ron Levy said:
I am a pilot of over 40 years and nearly 10,000 hours experience with ATP and CFI tickets, so what I would do isn't relevant. The only question is what you should do, and unless the Hovitos Indians are closing in with spears and poison dart blowguns, cancelling is never wrong, so you did not make the wrong decision.

Could you have flown safely? I have no idea. Neither has anyone else here. If you weren't comfortable with the conditions, one option might have been to take an instructor up with you. Then you would have been able to find out in a safe way whether you could handle those conditions or not, and store that information for future reference. But choosing not to fly until conditions are more to your likely is, with the exception noted above, always a safe choice, and it doesn't sound like the Hovitos Indians were closing in on the FBO.
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:yeahthat:

This is the attitude that allows pilots to accumulate experience. The type of aircraft was not mentioned, but I am assuming a single engine GA type. If the mission would have been in a C-130, my only precaution would have been to brief the procedure carefully and wait until wheels up to pour the coffee. :D
 
MAKG1 said:
Doesn't matter. Even if it's an emergency flight like a Lifeline, it does no one any service if you crash. If it's beyond your abilities, it's beyond your abilities.

Taking the mission into account is more commonly called "get-there-itis," and it's a dangerous attitude.
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For private flying, yes, I'd say taking the mission into account is a bad idea. With the type of flying I do, every day is a decision about, with the mission of the day, is the weather currently and foretasted to allow us to do the mission safely. What weather makes a mission safe can be totally different if I'm carrying passengers versus doing television work.
 
MAKG1 said:
Doesn't matter. Even if it's an emergency flight like a Lifeline, it does no one any service if you crash. If it's beyond your abilities, it's beyond your abilities.

Taking the mission into account is more commonly called "get-there-itis," and it's a dangerous attitude.

I might have considered the flight if the winds were right down the runway. Not with a direct crosswind and gusts. But I'm not the OP, so my opinion on that doesn't matter.
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Actually it does to me. I agree you have to watch out for "get-there-itis" but if I have somewhere to go I would fly in those conditions. Just a scenic flight around the local area for fun I'd wash the plane or something instead.
 
Looks like the major decision maker outside of the FBO's wind policy (you were already "done" at that point, if they say "no", so there was no decision to be made here, then they said aircraft was down, double-dead...) was the wind.

Only you can determine your limits for wind. This wind was within 20 degrees of the runway heading, and I've flown in winds like that, but I wouldn't call it "fun". Seems like every time I've been through ABQ it's doing that down there, for example.

If you have zero experience in it, it's a good idea to get some. It'll eventually happen on a long XC somewhere and you can better determine your tolerance for it and your aircraft's ability to handle it, if you've seen it with an instructor. You also need to know if the wind is forecast to change direction significantly. That same wind as a direct crosswind is a no-go for most aircraft we recreational folks fly. One guy balls it up on the runway, it could be closed for a while, and knowing if your alternates in fuel range (check if they're still in range if upwind!) may not have runways aligned with the howler going on outside, too. Just some of the thinking that needs to be done.

As everyone else said, when you're flying for recreation, canceling for any reason is valid. Heck, a hangnail is enough, if you're the nervous sort. Not launching into something you've never experienced before, is a solid decision, always.

Unless of course, the zombies are at the airport fence and they're going to eat your brains. That might be a good time to expand your envelope a bit. ;)

So next time the wind is blowing just below the FBO limit, fire up that speed dial to your CFI and see if they'll do some pattern work with ya. It might save your brains from the zombies. Hah. :)
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
For private flying, yes, I'd say taking the mission into account is a bad idea.
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That's true if safety is the issue. When we're talking about ceilings, vis, etc, mission is irrelevant.
But with wind, there's a safety evaluation (can I fly safely in this wind?), followed by an operational decision.

Winds usually equal turbulence, and mission definitely drives that decision.
I will fly in bumpy air to get to a destination, but not to just turn avgas to noise.
 
Don't doubt yourself. And you did the right thing by actually going outside and evaluating what is really going on. At my home field, just about every day we have a TAF that looks like:

TEMPO xxxxxxZ 18040G75KT 1200 +TSRA BKN010CB OVC030 etc etc etc

while the METAR will read all day long:

230/05 10SM FEW050 SCT200

So basically we would never go flying ever if we didn't actively call around and get PIREPS, look outside, and make a judgement call. You are doing it right.
 
If I was doing a cross country to an airport to the east that had a runway oriented to the west, then I'd take it. Pattern work? No way, a waste of time.
 
Velocity173 said:
If I was doing a cross country to an airport to the east that had a runway oriented to the west, then I'd take it. Pattern work? No way, a waste of time.
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Not a total waste if you'd never landed in anything higher than 20 knots.
 
By the time I saw that METAR I knew I would've only been working in the pattern if I were to go. Then I decided that wouldn't be a great idea considering I've never flown in anything more than probably 15kt gusts. I'll find a day when the wind is blowing straight down the runway with 15-20kt gusts and do some pattern work.
 
If I was the owner of that rental, it would have been down for something.
 
JordanDelaney said:
So, what would you have done? I'm really curious to get some answers from fellow pilots!
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I fly for fun...and those conditions are unlikely to be fun for me.

I would have cancelled.
 
My rule of thumb, is if I question it, the answer is no.

If I question something I feel a better pilot would not question, I train until the answer wouldn't have been no.

So I would not have flown.

I think over 50% of deaths in GA, are pilot error due to weather. It's nice to knock that 50% off the table before I get into the plane.
 
The mission can change a "go" into a "no-go" if it's not important and non-safety (e.g., comfort) issues are at hand.

For a safety issue, a no-go is a no-go. Period. Whether one can handle gusty crosswinds is not a function of the purpose of a flight. No matter what the mission is, it will not be accomplished if you remove a few taxi lights and trim the vegetation.
 
This is not the military, you do not have to do anything your not sure your capabilities can handle. I discovered that I could handle things that would have canceled the flight, by having them come up when I was in the air. Landing in gusting crosswinds was one of them. After doing it, I discovered it wasn't so bad after all.

Don't turn your flying into Russian roulette. If your in doubt, don't do it. As time flying goes on, your confidence and skills will improve. There is no rush, just let it happen on it's own.

-John
 
Go out, and and get some practice with that amount of wind. Eventually you will get to the point where your xwind limit is as much rudder as the plane you are flying has.
 
DavidWhite said:
Go out, and and get some practice with that amount of wind. Eventually you will get to the point where your xwind limit is as much rudder as the plane you are flying has.
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I would recommend when it's not a crosswind, but a headwind, and then go to an airport close by where it is a crosswind (or if your airport has two runways, request the crosswind runway).

That way, you always have the option if you're not feeling comfortable, and can head home and land safely.
 
That's a good idea when it works. But single-strip airports with the runway aligned precisely to the prevailing wind are fairly common, especially around cities, and especially where the wind always blows the same direction (more common than you might think).

I only wish Edwards would let me practice on the lakebed. You can land in any direction you want.
 
DavidWhite said:
Go out, and and get some practice with that amount of wind. Eventually you will get to the point where your xwind limit is as much rudder as the plane you are flying has.
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:yeahthat:

For me it would depend on mission. If I was going somewhere had something to do then ya I would go. If I was just planning on taking a joy ride no, but that is a comfort issue. Just don't want to get bumped around for fun. Anyway like Ron said what I would do is not what you should do. Go out and practice with a CFI and get better. You may need it one day and you will be glad you have seen it before.

Cheers
 
I would have probably gone. BUT having said that, I spent a lot of time in the Dakotas flying and it's always windy. I considered it "calm" when the wind was less than about 12kts and less than 7 or so across the runway. It's all about personal limitations. I would not have done it before I got experience in those winds with a GREAT CFI. That's what I'd recommend for you too.
 
I operate out of the same FBO as the OP, and while I once encountered the governor of the great state of NY, I have never run into any Hovitos Indians or zombies...yet.

Jordan, you might consider grabbing a CFI next time in those conditions, as the club waives the wind limits with a CFI or CP as PIC.

The experience wouldn't be a bad thing. Heck, when I took the 182 to Iowa this summer, I probably violated the club policy on every flight, as I don't think the wind was ever less than 20 kts for the entire week I was there! Errrr...I mean, IF the wind would have been that strong, I would have violated...oh, never mind.:nono:

Regardless, I remember at the time I was darn glad my primary CFI had me do a lot of crosswind landings during my training!
 
MAKG1 said:
That's a good idea when it works. But single-strip airports with the runway aligned precisely to the prevailing wind are fairly common, especially around cities, and especially where the wind always blows the same direction (more common than you might think).

I only wish Edwards would let me practice on the lakebed. You can land in any direction you want.
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I am lucky, as my airport has 18-36, and 7-25, so I always have a crosswind (if I have wind).
 
BrianR said:
I operate out of the same FBO as the OP, and while I once encountered the governor of the great state of NY, I have never run into any Hovitos Indians or zombies...yet.

Jordan, you might consider grabbing a CFI next time in those conditions, as the club waives the wind limits with a CFI or CP as PIC.

The experience wouldn't be a bad thing. Heck, when I took the 182 to Iowa this summer, I probably violated the club policy on every flight, as I don't think the wind was ever less than 20 kts for the entire week I was there! Errrr...I mean, IF the wind would have been that strong, I would have violated...oh, never mind.:nono:

Regardless, I remember at the time I was darn glad my primary CFI had me do a lot of crosswind landings during my training!
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Brian,
I'm hoping you saw Cuomo and not Patterson! Anyway, that's kind of funny because I was thinking to myself the other day, how do they even enforce that lol. I'll have to find someone to go up with the next time we get some nice gusty winds, which I'm sure I will not have to wait long for in this area!
 
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