What would you do?

Bob Bement

Bob Bement

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Bob Bement
I posted this on the Purple board and so I will post it here, too.
I would like to ask about a hypothetical situation. Lets say a guys wife would contact you and say something like, " My husband left, in the car, real early this morning for a meeting in a town about 200 miles distant, and when I got up I found he left his billfold here at the house." Lets say she wants to know if you could fly his billfold up to him. Now does the FAA say that you can't fly someone for hire without a commercial license, or does it say you can't fly a billfold without a commercial license. Could you make this trip to fly a billfold? How about for expenses?
 
It is a favor for a friend. Whatever the FAA rules are, good manners dictates that if you can do this and don't mind that you do the favor for your friends.
 
Bob Bement said:
I posted this on the Purple board and so I will post it here, too.
I would like to ask about a hypothetical situation. Lets say a guys wife would contact you and say something like, " My husband left, in the car, real early this morning for a meeting in a town about 200 miles distant, and when I got up I found he left his billfold here at the house." Lets say she wants to know if you could fly his billfold up to him. Now does the FAA say that you can't fly someone for hire without a commercial license, or does it say you can't fly a billfold without a commercial license. Could you make this trip to fly a billfold? How about for expenses?
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I belielve that you would be considered a frieght operation at that point.
 
Bob,

The regs says persons or property for hire. I'd personally do it, and tell the FAA to **** off if some busybody reported me.
 
Bob Bement said:
I posted this on the Purple board and so I will post it here, too.
I would like to ask about a hypothetical situation. Lets say a guys wife would contact you and say something like, " My husband left, in the car, real early this morning for a meeting in a town about 200 miles distant, and when I got up I found he left his billfold here at the house." Lets say she wants to know if you could fly his billfold up to him. Now does the FAA say that you can't fly someone for hire without a commercial license, or does it say you can't fly a billfold without a commercial license. Could you make this trip to fly a billfold? How about for expenses?
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I'd say as a private pilot you can fly the billfold as a goodwill gesture, you can't accept pro rata or any other payment. 61.113 says no passengers or property for hire, I'd say that covers accepting payment for taking a billfold to a friend. And since you didn't have a passenger, you can't go pro rata.

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
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Lets say that this young man that forgot his billfold was a member of your track team when he was in HS. Lets say that he would try to run through a brick wall if you had asked him to. He would do that because of you! Now how do you tell him NO I can't afford to do that for you. You have a good airplane, You aren't doing anything, and he is asking for a favor! :mad2:
 
Bob Bement said:
Lets say that this young man that forgot his billfold was a member of your track team when he was in HS. Lets say that he would try to run through a brick wall if you had asked him to. He would do that because of you! Now how do you tell him NO I can't afford to do that for you. You have a good airplane, You aren't doing anything, and he is asking for a favor! :mad2:
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Personally I'd do it. Visit your friend, enjoy the flight, and have a nice lunch while you're there.
 
jtheune said:
I belielve that you would be considered a frieght operation at that point.
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As long as it passes the "duck test" I don't think you could really get in trouble for it. As long as it doesn't look like you are in the business of transportion or creating the expectation of anyone involved that you might be, I think you would be fine. While technically it might be considered a commerical operation, I think it would take some other circumstances to actual get in trouble for it.

Things like.

1. Doing this or similar flights on a monthly or regular basis.
2. Doing it for a complete stranger
3. You or your friend bragging to the 135 operator about it.
4. Charging more than expenses for it.

Best bet is just fly up and have breakfast/lunch with your friend, He is buying. After all you have his wallet:).

Brian
 
While just going up there is not the problem, it's the reimbursement for his exspenses that are the key here. I would say that if you are really concerned about the FAA then offer to mow the guys lawn or something else like that so you could get paid for it. If the FAA really wants you they can get you but at least this way you have a leg to stand on. of course your lawyer bill will be higher then just paying for the flight in the first place :)
 
Or have the wife fly with you. Then you have a passenger and can accept her pro-rata share of the operating expenses.
 
Bob Bement said:
Lets say that this young man that forgot his billfold was a member of your track team when he was in HS. Lets say that he would try to run through a brick wall if you had asked him to. He would do that because of you! Now how do you tell him NO I can't afford to do that for you. You have a good airplane, You aren't doing anything, and he is asking for a favor! :mad2:
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I'd say that the friendship was pretty one way. If he would run through a wall for you, then do you not owe him the same? If it is a matter of money perhaps the friendship is not as strong as you think it is or want it to be.
 
Bob,

I have not seen it written that all the fuel that goes into your plane has to be on your credit card.
 
Yes, but you know all of the FAA regs are written in stone. Like this one that has been written in stone for years: When an airline Pilot reaches 60 years of age he/she can not be an airline pilot. Or words to that effect.
 
Some of the contents from the billfold could be left behind in order to reduce the payload. :lol:
 
Let's see.... 2 hours in the 182, call it $100 in fuel. I'd stop at 7-11 on the way to his house and pick up a 6 pack for him and deliver the 6 pack by way of your car for $100. I would then head to the airport, with the wallet that you collected while delivering the 6 pack, put $100 of fuel into the 182 and head out on your mission.
 
Do the favor. Don't accept compensation for doing it. Now you're square with the FAA.

Later on, the guy gives you a gift, totally unrelated to the favor? What a nice guy.
 
do the trip...then sell the wife something of little or no value for $200
 
TMetzinger said:
Do the favor. Don't accept compensation for doing it. Now you're square with the FAA.

Later on, the guy gives you a gift, totally unrelated to the favor? What a nice guy.
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Exactly. IMO that's perfectly legal since there's no quid pro quo as long as you don't make the trip contingent on a receipt of a "gift". The IRS says your friend (and/or his wife) can gift you up to something like $13000 this year without tax consequences and unless the friend (for whom you'd run through a brick wall) complains to the FAA about your "illegal freight operation" the feds would have no case, duck or no duck. Just make sure your friend understands that any "gift" he might offer after the trip is purely voluntary and NOT compensation for the trip and don't you or your friend put the word out that Bennett Air can deliver billfolds in return for a "gift".

Personally, I think the FAA's rules and enforcement WRT sharing expenses is way overboard, but they have to draw a line somewhere and the current location makes things easier for them to prosecute a transgression.
 
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Assuming you have no preexisting business relationship with those folks (in which case the "goodwill as compensation" issue crops up), you can certainly make the trip at your own expense and deliver the billfold, but since you have no "common purpose" for making that trip, you can't accept any money from them for doing it -- zip, nada, nil. However, if they just happen to decide to take you out to an expensive restaurant for dinner next weekend, that's not the FAA's concern. And for the record, the reg concerned is 61.113, and note that since the billfold and its contents are "property," you are "carrying property" on this trip, and you aren't allowed to do that "for hire or compensation."
 
Honestly folks, this is borderline ridiculous. Do you really believe the FAA is going to ramp check the pilot and demand to know just what he is doing there? Do you really believe the FAA will expend the time and resources to go after a pilot delivering a wallet to a friend? :frown2:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Honestly folks, this is borderline ridiculous. Do you really believe the FAA is going to ramp check the pilot and demand to know just what he is doing there? Do you really believe the FAA will expend the time and resources to go after a pilot delivering a wallet to a friend? :frown2:
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Only if the friend later complains to the FAA about it (and sometimes that does happen when money is involved). But regardless, I think the OP deserves an accurate answer as to what the rules really are -- don't you?
 
If no financial reward is involved, then it is just another hamburger run, ramp check or not.

If your in doubt about anything regarding the legal operation of an airplane, pilot qualifications, or responsibilities, all you have to do is call the nearest F.S.D.O. and get a ruling.

John
 
I'd do the friend the favor. If my friend was compelled to thank me, he can make a donation to my non-profit.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Honestly folks, this is borderline ridiculous. Do you really believe the FAA is going to ramp check the pilot and demand to know just what he is doing there? Do you really believe the FAA will expend the time and resources to go after a pilot delivering a wallet to a friend? :frown2:
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Agree 10000%

When you start looking for gremlins -- eureka!

I'm sure any ASI at a FSDO reading this thread will laugh and say, "We're really getting to those guys, aren't we? They think we're everywhere!!"
 
Rotor&Wing said:
It will not warrant action. See http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=D937190DE6FC0862862576B200756347

If someone did complain more than likely it would result in an informal phone call from an ASI and a discussion of the pertinent regulations.
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If you'd read further down that section, you would have seen that cases involving "Operating without having been issued a required certificate, rating, or other required and valid authorization" (and carrying property for hire without CP and 135 certificates is such) are automatically excluded from the E-EDP process and legal action is required. Also, while not specifically stated in the books, it appears to me that taking money can hardly be called "inadvertent," a necessary condition for use administrative action such as you described rather than legal enforcement action. After reviewing numerous cases on point, FAA Order 2150.3B on sanctions, and the entirety of Section 14-8 in FAA Order 8900.1, it appears that the sanction in a case of "Operation for compensation or hire when a valid commercial pilot certificate had not been issued" (which is what this would be) is a minimum 90-day suspension and a max of revocation -- hardly things to be toying with.

But perhaps the Inspectors you know are softies who bend their own rules in cases like this.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you'd read further down that section, you would have seen that cases involving "Operating without having been issued a required certificate, rating, or other required and valid authorization" (and carrying property for hire without CP and 135 certificates is such) are automatically excluded from the E-EDP process and legal action is required. Also, while not specifically stated in the books, it appears to me that taking money can hardly be called "inadvertent," a necessary condition for use administrative action such as you described rather than legal enforcement action. After reviewing numerous cases on point, FAA Order 2150.3B on sanctions, and the entirety of Section 14-8 in FAA Order 8900.1, it appears that the sanction in a case of "Operation for compensation or hire when a valid commercial pilot certificate had not been issued" (which is what this would be) is a minimum 90-day suspension and a max of revocation -- hardly things to be toying with.

But perhaps the Inspectors you know are softies who bend their own rules in cases like this.
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If there is no direct exchange of money or other value for the service rendered, point moot, docket closed, get outta my courtroom.
 
dmccormack said:
If there is no direct exchange of money or other value for the service rendered, point moot, docket closed, get outta my courtroom.
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I agree, and it wouldn't even get to a court, no less the Regional Counsel. However, the original question asked about accepting expense money, and it is this point which I was addressing. Of course, as I said up front, if there is no money involved (other than the cash in the wallet, assuming it all goes to hubby along with the wallet without any "shrinkage" en route), it's completely legal.
 
The real issue here, Bob, is if you can't afford to do it, you can't do it. It's like American Healthcare. We, individually, and collectively, can't afford squat.

Maybe if some unrelated money happened to appear in your FBO maintenence account.....
 
dmccormack said:
If there is no direct exchange of money or other value for the service rendered, point moot, docket closed, get outta my courtroom.
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Exactly. The FAA is not going to expend the time and effort to go after such trivial matters. Even if the other party decided to complain it would end with a telephone call and a counceling session.
 
"Yes sir, Mr. FAA ramp-checker-man -- parts and maintenance and 100LL are so expensive, I always carry two wallets."

:rofl:
 
There is a reason I only fill in the log on a quarterly basis - so many hours, so many TOL, so many night hours, so many XC hours, so many IFR approaches, etc. for the quarter ending 3/31/2010...
No individual flights are logged in the official book... The notebook in the tool box, they never will see, has the finer details for the quarter...
That way if someone says I did this or that, it comes down to what he says versus my senile and very spotty memory...

Anyway, this is much ado about nothing... If I choose to take a friend on a flight to Florida for Sun-N-Fun, it is what I choose to do... If I choose to fly where a friend is to take him something, it is what I choose to do... If I choose to go flying all alone it is what I choose to do... A shrug and a blank stare go a long ways when someone starts being nosy... I also choose not to answer ANY questions by others about why or what I did... 99% of the times someone has gotten into a hassle with the FAA over compensation is because they have been running their mouth in the pilot's lounge...

denny-o
 
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