What would you do?

mjburian

mjburian

Cleared for Takeoff
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Milwaukee, WI
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Display name:
Marty
Since I am no longer night current as of next Monday, I figured I would go out tonight and do a little night flying. I drove 45 minutes out to the airport where my dad (and his partners) keep their plane. As I started the pre-flight inspection, I realized the tail position light was burnt out. I figured I would deal with it when I was done with the pre-flight, and even added a quart of oil (it was a little low).

After finishing the pre-flight inspection, I turned the nav lights on again and gave the tail light a few good taps (hoping to wake it from the dead). Unfortunately, that didn't work... so I started nosing around the hangar. There's an extra wingtip position light bulb, but not one for the tail.

I called the maintenance officer to see if he knew if there was an extra bulb around. He said he wasn't positive, but he thought there was an extra bulb in the cabinet... but he wasn't sure if it was for the wingtip or the tail. As I've already covered, it was only for the wingtip and wouldn't work in the tail no matter how hard I tried.

The question is, what would you do in that situation? I wasn't "going somewhere" and was going to remain in the pattern... just to do a half dozen takeoffs and landings.

Would you take the flight, knowing that you weren't legal? Or would you put the plane away and drive the 45 minutes home, irritated/frustrated that your plans for the night had been dashed.

For the record, I chose option B. I'm a new private pilot (as of June 9th)... and am worried that if I "let the small things slide" I will continue down that path. I've already canceled a flight with friends because based on the fuel load we would have been 50ish pounds overweight. My hope is that by making these "hard" decisions, I will begin to build a base of good decisions... with hopefully more good decisions to follow.

What do you think?
 
Personally, I love the way you think. I've scratched flights for similar reasons and think it builds the right mind set. My opinion is that this is the best way to avoid becoming a statistic. I guess those years and years of "Never Again" and "I Learned About Flying From That" while I couldn't afford to fly are paying off.

The hardest (not really hard, just amazing painful) experience for me was about 3 years ago. I'd pulled a back set out of the Velocity, stuffed her full of camping gear, had her loaded to within a pound or two of gross and my boy in the passenger seat. We were a few hours ahead of a front and just ready to launch on our first Oshkosh with the Velocity. The electric fuel pump made a funny noise but no pressure. Plane started fine on the mechanical pump, but no electric boost pump. I thought, "Hell, they never had an extra pump in "the good old days". This was a really tempting argument since the plane was loaded to the gills and we were actually strapped in and ready to go with the engine running, a cold front on the way, no spare parts on hand and a week of Oshkosh only a few short hours away. I'm pretty sure I swore excessively as I made the decision. That was the longest drive to Oshkosh I remember over the last 12 years. I guess I should be grateful that once I had replaced the electric boost pump upon our return from Oshkosh I never had a problem with the mechanical, engine driven pump, but somehow it didn't feel that way at the time.

mjburian said:
For the record, I chose option B. I'm a new private pilot (as of June 9th)... and am worried that if I "let the small things slide" I will continue down that path. I've already canceled a flight with friends because based on the fuel load we would have been 50ish pounds overweight. My hope is that by making these "hard" decisions, I will begin to build a base of good decisions... with hopefully more good decisions to follow.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
 
Short of the Langoliers chasing me I would have done the same. No point in sacrificing your self-integrity for a few minutes of convenience.

Take-offs are optional.
 
Two smart calls made here, but re the lights: The only reason traffic is easier to spot at night than during the day is because of the lights. the more the better, IMHO. This is one case where the law is rooted in common sense.:D
 
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jsbougher said:
Personally, I love the way you think. I've scratched flights for similar reasons and think it builds the right mind set. My opinion is that this is the best way to avoid becoming a statistic. I guess those years and years of "Never Again" and "I Learned About Flying From That" while I couldn't afford to fly are paying off.

The hardest (not really hard, just amazing painful) experience for me was about 3 years ago. I'd pulled a back set out of the Velocity, stuffed her full of camping gear, had her loaded to within a pound or two of gross and my boy in the passenger seat. We were a few hours ahead of a front and just ready to launch on our first Oshkosh with the Velocity. The electric fuel pump made a funny noise but no pressure. Plane started fine on the mechanical pump, but no electric boost pump. I thought, "Hell, they never had an extra pump in "the good old days". This was a really tempting argument since the plane was loaded to the gills and we were actually strapped in and ready to go with the engine running, a cold front on the way, no spare parts on hand and a week of Oshkosh only a few short hours away. I'm pretty sure I swore excessively as I made the decision. That was the longest drive to Oshkosh I remember over the last 12 years. I guess I should be grateful that once I had replaced the electric boost pump upon our return from Oshkosh I never had a problem with the mechanical, engine driven pump, but somehow it didn't feel that way at the time.
Click to expand...

Odd, isn't it? They never teach you "swearing" in your primary training, but every pilot seems to instinctively react that way when something doesn't go as planned. I'm just glad I haven't had to use that method of problem-resolution while in the air yet. [Knocking on wood]
 
rottydaddy said:
Two smart calls made here, but re the lights: The only reason traffic is easier to spot at night during the day is because of the lights. the more the better, IMHO. This is one case where the law is rooted in common sense.:D
Click to expand...

Even a blind squirrel...
 
rottydaddy said:
Two smart calls made here, but re the lights: The only reason traffic is easier to spot at night during the day is because of the lights. the more the better, IMHO. This is one case where the law is rooted in common sense.:D
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was going to say. I cancelled an IR training flight last Wed. because my preflight reflected the right position or nav light was inop. While I knew it wasn't legal, my main concern was my own skin. Visibility is key, and I light 'em all up, even in the daytime, because you can't have enough light.
 
Someone had the foresight to buy an extra wingtip position light, but didn't pick up a spare tail light. I wonder if that's because there are two wingtip position lights (the bulbs are interchangeable, at least in this plane) and only one on the tail? :rolleyes:
 
mjburian said:
Someone had the foresight to buy an extra wingtip position light, but didn't pick up a spare tail light. I wonder if that's because there are two wingtip position lights (the bulbs are interchangeable, at least in this plane) and only one on the tail? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Or perhaps you just burned out the spare :yes::D
 
mjburian said:
Since I am no longer night current as of next Monday, I figured I would go out tonight and do a little night flying. I drove 45 minutes out to the airport where my dad (and his partners) keep their plane. As I started the pre-flight inspection, I realized the tail position light was burnt out. I figured I would deal with it when I was done with the pre-flight, and even added a quart of oil (it was a little low).

After finishing the pre-flight inspection, I turned the nav lights on again and gave the tail light a few good taps (hoping to wake it from the dead). Unfortunately, that didn't work... so I started nosing around the hangar. There's an extra wingtip position light bulb, but not one for the tail.
Click to expand...

By "tail position light" do you mean the rotating beacon?
 
I'd say you made the right choice. Don't slip on things like your pre-flight inspection, etc. That creates bad habits now, and you'll learn enough of those on your own that you then need to kick anyway. :)
 
Like the others, I think you made the right decision. Plus, what sense would it make to intentionally break a FAR just to avoid breaking another FAR?
 
Well, the other thing is that you can always go get your night currency. I did mine two weekends ago because it was a nice Saturday night out, and it seemed like a fun thing to do. I hadn't done any night landings in over four months, but since I had my instrument check ride in a week and that would mean I could once again fly at night, I figured I might have a use for it. So, you get the plane repaired (now having identified a problem), and then you go out another time. No big deal in this case, it's not like you were going to embark on a long, planned out trip that you then had to scratch. :)
 
I once did a 10 hour drive instead of a 3 hour flight because I didn't have the right chart.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Well, the other thing is that you can always go get your night currency. I did mine two weekends ago because it was a nice Saturday night out, and it seemed like a fun thing to do. I hadn't done any night landings in over four months, but since I had my instrument check ride in a week and that would mean I could once again fly at night, I figured I might have a use for it. So, you get the plane repaired (now having identified a problem), and then you go out another time. No big deal in this case, it's not like you were going to embark on a long, planned out trip that you then had to scratch. :)
Click to expand...

You're right... no big deal.

I have a (short) trip planned next Saturday with friends from out of town. Since the return flight will be at night, I wanted to get my night currency ahead of time (rather than doing the old "wait here while I go do 3 takeoffs and landings" routine). I had planned to do at least a half dozen landings, with different flap configurations, and using different runways (winds were light and variable).

As I said earlier, it was just frustrating. But, I (hope) would make the same decision again. I'll probably give it another shot tonight if weather holds up. Otherwise, I might have to find some time during (my very busy) next week.
 
steingar said:
I once did a 10 hour drive instead of a 3 hour flight because I didn't have the right chart.
Click to expand...

Couldn't you have picked up a new chart? I mean, even if you had to drive an hour each way to get the chart, it still would've saved time to do that and fly as opposed to taking a 10 hour drive.

I'm guessing there's a reason you didn't do that, though.
 
mjburian said:
No... sorry. The constant white nav light on the tail.
Click to expand...

I'll have to do some research. I thought it was the beacon. If its the little white nav light on the tail, and its not required equipment for night VFR flying, I might have gone for a short pattern flight. Cross country? Maybe, but that gets more into the iffy zone.

If it is required equipment there is no way I'd leave the ground without it. No way.
 
dmccormack said:
While your NOGO decision was good, the tail light is not a required light.

According to CFR 91.205(c) for flight at night you need the minimum equipment for VFR day (91.205b) plus:

  • position lights on the wingtips
Click to expand...
That's not what it says in my copy of the FAR's -- 91.205(c)(2) says "approved position lights," and 23.1385(c) "Position light system installation" includes a requirement for a "rear position light." By what reference do you conclude that only wingtip position lights are required?
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not what it says in my copy of the FAR's -- 91.205(c)(2) says "approved position lights," and 23.1385(c) "Position light system installation" includes a requirement for a "rear position light." By what reference do you conclude that only wingtip position lights are required?
Click to expand...

You're right -- The rear light is also a position light (in a/c that have the rear in place as part of initail cert), so in this case if the a/c had that light installed as part of certification, it would need to be operational.

Advisory Circular 20-30
 
dmccormack said:
While your NOGO decision was good, the tail light is not a required light.

According to CFR 91.205(c) for flight at night you need the minimum equipment for VFR day (91.205b) plus:
Click to expand...

I don't see how it's not required. You needed to go further into the CFR:

Sec. 91.209 Aircraft lights.

No person may:
(a) During the period from sunset to sunrise (or, in Alaska, during
the period a prominent unlighted object cannot be seen from a distance
of 3 statute miles or the sun is more than 6 degrees below the
horizon)--
(1) Operate an aircraft unless it has lighted position lights;
(2) Park or move an aircraft in, or in dangerous proximity to, a
night flight operations area of an airport unless the aircraft--
(i) Is clearly illuminated;
(ii) Has lighted position lights; or
(iii) is in an area that is marked by obstruction lights;
(3) Anchor an aircraft unless the aircraft--
(i) Has lighted anchor lights; or
(ii) Is in an area where anchor lights are not required on vessels;
or
(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light
system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the
anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command
determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the
interest of safety to turn the lights off.
Click to expand...

Even the section you quote includes the following....
(c) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the
following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this
section.
(2) Approved position lights.
(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light
system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light
systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which
a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971,
must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27,
or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10,
1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation
white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light
system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where
repairs or replacement can be made.
Click to expand...

As Ron notes, position lights include the white light on the tail.

For the CFR directly from GPO, Click Here

MJBURIAN: you did the right thing. Safe AND legal. From the rear, that white position light may be the difference between being seen and not being seen. The red beacon is not enough as it may be confused with a tower beacon...
 
Character is how you behave when no one is watching.

Aviation DEMANDS the highest standards of character, our history is written in the blood of those who fell short (and in many cases, the blood of the innocent along for the ride).

Bravo Zulu on a good decision.
 
dmccormack said:
You're right -- The rear light is also a position light (in a/c that have the rear in place as part of initail cert)
Click to expand...
Uhhh...when is that tail light not a position light? Or how can you have a position light system without a white rear light?
 
wsuffa said:
As Ron notes, position lights include the white light on the tail.
Click to expand...
Actually, it doesn't have to be on the tail, but it does have to be visible from behind. Think about a VariEze, and see 23.1385, et seq., for details.
 
If the white light is installed on the trailing edge of the wing.

FAR Part 23, Sec 23.1385, (c):Rear position light. The rear position light must be a white light mounted as far aft as practicable on the tail or on each wing tip.
 
dmccormack said:
If the white light is installed on the trailing edge of the wing.

FAR Part 23, Sec 23.1385, (c):Rear position light. The rear position light must be a white light mounted as far aft as practicable on the tail or on each wing tip.
Click to expand...

So how could it be "not installed"?
 
dmccormack said:
It may not be installed on the tail due to obstructions or some maintenance concern (excess vibration, etc), thus installed on the trailing edge of the wing.
Click to expand...
But it will be installed somewhere, the only question is where. And if it's burned out, that's a no-go for night, no matter where it's installed.
 
My opinion...."You have chosen...wisely."

These are the tough decisions to make. Congratulate yourself and provide significant self reward for this one. It's the little mistakes like this that start the typical accident chains that we all read in the magazines.....

Good Job!!!

--Matt Rogers
 
Marty, great decision.

I had a similar situation to the 50 lbs over thing a few months back - I think I wrote about it but I'm too lazy to go find it right now. My mother was visiting from out of town, and I was going to take her and my girlfriend on a quick x-c for a $100 hamburger. After I did the wt/bal, I found that we'd be 50 lbs over weight with full fuel. I was really tempted to go anyway, thinking that I had a really long runway at SGR to take off from, and it was a relatively cool day, and there were winds down the runway, and that by the time we got to our destination we'd be within the weight. But, then I realized how flimsy those rationalizations would have sounded if I had to precede them with, "Your Honor, I knowingly exceeded the operating limitations of the aircraft because..."

True, I probably would have been fine, but it's not worth the risk of becoming a test pilot with the two most important women in my life on board. So, I preferred the unpleasant task of telling my girlfriend that she couldn't come because we'd be overweight (though she was the lightest one on board by at least 50 lbs). She took it well, though she was bummed about not going (and more so the reason, even though it wasn't her - but flowers helped smooth that over).
 
Correct decisions, all. The decision to not take off is never wrong.

Right after I got my PP in 2001 I was going to take my wife up for the first time. As I pulled the plane out of the hangar I heard a rubbing sound that I couldn't identify. Turned out it was just a brake pad dragging and would have taken care of itself the first time I stepped on the brakes, but I didn't know that at the time. Called the maintenance officer for the plane, reported the problem and pushed it back into the hangar. I was probably more dissapointed than my wife, but what else are you going to do?
 
Ghery said:
Correct decisions, all. The decision to not take off is never wrong.
Click to expand...
Well, almost never. Y'all remember the opening sequence of Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark? I would have said Al was wrong to not take off (or at least try) even if nothing worked besides the engine.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, almost never. Y'all remember the opening sequence of Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark? I would have said Al was wrong to not take off (or at least try) even if nothing worked besides the engine.
Click to expand...

Well, there's always that example. But in my world I don't have a bunch of natives with blowguns chasing me to the airplane. :p
 
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