What would you buy: $57k edition

[TexasAviation]

Some of you may recall I've been saving up for my first plane. My plan was to save $60k and buy a $40k plane, leaving $20k in reserve from the get-go (I'm very conservative).

Well, here I sit with $57k in the airplane fund and ready to pull the trigger. Obviously I'd like to stick to my original plan to leave a healthy reserve fund, but I've got some flexibility on price if the right plane came along.

Mission: IFR trainer, typically flights within 250 NM, true four-seater. I'd prefer fixed gear for lower operating costs, but I'm open to a retract if it was the perfect plane for me. GPS and autopilot are huge pluses.

I have three kids, so something like a Cherokee Six would be nice for our whole family to fly together. I doubt that would fit my purchase budget, though, and 95% of the time I wouldn't be flying with family. Plus, when I think of it as a flying Suburban, it doesn't sound like much fun. But I'm open to the idea.

Same thing with retracts. Mooneys sound appealing based on the numbers.

But the planes that interest me most are things like Cherokee 180 and 235, Cardinal and Super Musketeer (I looked at this one in person and am keeping it on the list: http://www.barnstormers.com/listing.php?mode=usersearch&user=165900)

I'm tempted to look into this Meyers because everything I've read about them is so intriguing. Not sure if I'd like the reality of owning an unusual plane, but boy it looks sweet! http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1417067/1959-meyers-200a

I'm located in North Texas, so if you know of any good leads in the area, send them my way.

And if you've got the inclination to send links from Trade-a-Plane, Barnstormers, Controllers, etc., go right ahead. My brain hurts from too much online plane shopping, so I'd be curious to see what others think about some planes on the market right now.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Start looking for a mechanic at the airport where you intend to keep the plane.

 

[James331]

Decked out big engine PA-24 would be my first easy choice.

Can get a heck of a Commanchie for that price, nice big back seat, handles very nice, simple systems, good cruise speed, most APs have turned a wrench on them at some point so nothing exotic, also able to handle grass and not hard on the eyes ether.

 

[Bonchie]

A Mooney M20F with a decent panel and manual gear can be had for less then 50k.You probably aren't gonna get any cheaper for maintence when it comes to retracts given the johnson bar gear that's dead simple and it having a bullet proof 0-360. And of course you save a bunch in fuel over the long haul.

If you want fixed gear, you can get a nice Archer for that price. 235's will cost more to maintain and burn more fuel.

Comanches are very undervalued and are great planes. But I can't speak to how much they cost to maintain on average.

 

[Bonchie]

I think that Super Mouse you linked to looks pretty good. Archers tend to be overvalued and that Beech may be a better value. With the 200hp O-360, it'll make Archer speeds as well, haul more, and be much more comfortable inside.

Only thing you might want to do is replace that GPS with something newer. But with a 57k budget you'd have room to do it easily.

I'd be curious how old the engine is in it. 320 SMOH but has it been sitting?

 

[TexasAviation]

I'd be curious how old the engine is in it. 320 SMOH but has it been sitting?

I don't believe it's been flown at all in the last six months, and only 10 hours in the previous year. That's one reason I'm not super excited about it. That, and the way it looks (both the cosmetic condition and the Musketeer look in general.) Plus, even with 200 hp, I still wish it cruised faster. I'm open to it but didn't fall in love with it.

Comanche and M20F are both good options. Haven't found any in my area worth looking at yet. And still would prefer fixed gear.

Cardinals seem like a great fit on paper. This one with 430 WAAS and autopilot hits a lot of things on my wish list ... but a bit outside my budget, even if I spent the whole $57k: http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?listing_id=2177931

 

[somorris]

This looks like it might be a good one (and well within your budget):

For Sale:​

1971 C-177B FG

Description:​

An all original Cardinal 177B. This 1st one off the 1971 model year assembly line. Total Original engine 1986 SMOH hours (Overhauled at 720 TTSN due to a valve issue); uses little oil and good compression. 2005 a complete Garmin panel upgrade with GNS 430W,GTX- 330, Garmin Audio Panel, etc. Paint is a 5-6, Interior is 7-8. TTAF is 2686. No damage history; complete logs. We purchased a 1976 RG. Currently available to be viewed at Paul New's shop in Jackson Tenn-KMKL

Price:​

$35,000.00/offer

Location:​

Jackson, TN (KMKL)

Link:​

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mp7bw4oz5s6d7

 

[coloradobluesky]

Flying retract you always have that gear in back of your mind. Life is easier if it's down and locked. Less expensive too without much sacrafice in speed. That one really depends on the pilot though. Ive owned both and am glad to have down and locked now.

How far is your common trip? I found that that so long as the trip is 6 hours or less, it didn't matter. A faster airplane that could do it in 5 was not much advantage. Much over 6 hours and it means a nights stay on the way. That is a big jump. So speed doesnt matter, much, so long as I could get there in 6 hours, which is one day with a lunch/fuel stop.

OTOH, if the trip goes to 7 or 8 hours, and you can get a plane that will do it in 6, that is a benefit worth having.

 

[edo2000]

It is difficult to find an airplane that will haul 4 adults, a "true four-seater", without going above 200hp. Depends on density altitude at the fields you will be visiting frequently. A Cherokee 235 would be a good option, or an older C-182. I like my Grumman Tiger. It's reasonably fast, it has a 900 lb useful load, but I definitely wouldn't call it a true 4-seater, especially with my home base elevation of 6000 ft.

 

[bnt83]

+1 for Cherokee 235. If you and your passengers are younger no physical problems like knees etc, then that's probably the best bang for the buck out of the airplanes you listed.

 

[TexasAviation]

I've e-mailed about several Cherokee 235s in the area tonight. Will be working the phones tomorrow.

Same thing with a couple of Cardinals and Tigers ... and a Mooney and Comanche. I'm all over the map. Want to find several to see in person.

 

[StanN45]

I think a Comanche would be on my radar. A buddy of mine keeps telling me I need a C182. I think it would be a good choice as well. Roomy and a good useful load.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Cherokee 235 or 182 would be a good choice. Cherokee 180/Archer not a bad choice either, sacrifice a little speed but better on fuel.

If you want autopilot and a good IFR GPS(and I strongly recommend you buy an airplane equipped with both if you plan to do IFR with any regularity), you're going to spend your entire budget pretty easily.

 

[comanche pilot]

Seems like a pretty sweet deal. Low hr airframe and some time left on the engine before recomended overhaul. Looks like it was cared for...
DEAL! VERY CLEAN COMANCHE 250 • $29,700 • REDUCED FOR QUICK SALE • Low Time 1959 Comanche PA-24-250 - 2500 TTSNEW - 1555 SMOH - 240 SPOH - Logs Since New - Always Hangared - No Damage History - Fresh oil change....ready to issue ferry permit!! Ran engine 3 days ago. All compressions good!! Gear Swing is good.....All engine and flight instruments good.... Priced to sell!! Being sold with ferry permit - First $29,700 flies it away!! - Aircraft Located in Redmond, Oregon. Beautiful cross country economical fast aircraft!! Cheaper than C-172's and Cherokee 140's....this is a deal! • Contact Cody W. Ernst, Owner - located Bend, OR USA • Telephone: 760-421-6731 . • Posted May 25, 2016 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures

 

[coloradobluesky]

56 years old and no annual. You have no idea what you are getting. Doubt if its been flown much in a long time. Engines like that tend to be short lived. POSSIBLY a lot of other problems too. Old birds like that are A&P fix up projects (that they buy for 1/2 that), NOT a first time plane for a short time pilot. Being sold with a ferry permit. I bet that means hes says "well, you will have to get one". IF its in such good shape, why doesn't he annual it????

 

[comanche pilot]

Doom and gloom doesn't get you much...
There are a few AD's on the airframe that can be expensive, depending on how you comply. I don't have any association with this airplane, but I still think it's a good deal depending on what the pre-buy/annual uncovers. That would go for any used airplane.

 

[coloradobluesky]

It is a low price.

 

[Tom-D]

It is a low price.

Fuel burn and the ferry permit requirement is probably the reason.

 

[Tom-D]

56 years old and no annual. You have no idea what you are getting. Doubt if its been flown much in a long time. Engines like that tend to be short lived. POSSIBLY a lot of other problems too. Old birds like that are A&P fix up projects (that they buy for 1/2 that), NOT a first time plane for a short time pilot. Being sold with a ferry permit. I bet that means hes says "well, you will have to get one". IF its in such good shape, why doesn't he annual it????

Wouldn't you do a inspection, find out what you are getting, then call that inspection an annual, and fly for a year and see what develops ?
Tire Kickers can always think of a reason not to buy.

 

[mkosmo]

Tire Kickers can always think of a reason not to buy.

It seems like 99% of pilots are nothing but tire kickers. Big talk with no *real* intent to ever actually purchase.

 

[TexasAviation]

Looked at a Tiger this morning. Beautiful plane and just completed thorough inspection by Dave Fletcher at FletchAir. This one's really, really tempting, although right at the top of my budget at $57k asking price.

It was roomier than I expected. Don't know why I thought the Tiger was a smaller plane (maybe the canopy reminds me of a small experimental) but had enough space to be reasonably comfortable.

Downsides:

— No GPS.

— Engine was overhauled in the late 1990s, then must have spent a long time as a hangar queen. The current owner bought it four years ago and has been flying it regularly ever since, according to the logbooks. So no sign of a current problem, but still. It's low time on an engine that was last overhauled almost two decades ago.

Next up: Hoping to check out a Cherokee 235 and Cardinal in the next few days. Both look like good possibilities.

 

[TexasAviation]

It is a low price.

Which is exactly why I'm not interested in it. I'll leave a "too good to be true" plane for an A&P or a buyer way more experienced than me

Thanks for sharing, though, comanche pilot!

 

[steingar]

With three growing offspring you need more airplane than your money will buy. I'd identify the ship, then save up enough cash to buy a really good one. I'd not fly my family in the lowest common denominator.

 

[TexasAviation]

It seems like 99% of pilots are nothing but tire kickers. Big talk with no *real* intent to ever actually purchase.

Yep, there's definitely some truth to that. Plus, the number of pilots who can afford to write a check for every plane they ever talk about buying has got to be pretty slim. Most of those folks would be more likely to shop for a Gulfstream than a Piper or Cessna, anyway!

As for me, I'll gladly be a tire kicker on a few airplanes while I learn what the market is like. I'm trying to be really upfront with the sellers about it, like, "This is only the second plane I've shopped for in person, and I'm planning to look at a few more." I don't want to mislead them. I might miss out on a good airplane because of that, but I can live with it.

I'm a very serious buyer, but also a patient buyer. That means I'll look like a serious buyer to one seller and look like a tire-kicker to all the others.

 

[TexasAviation]

With three growing offspring you need more airplane than your money will buy. I'd identify the ship, then save up enough cash to buy a really good one. I'd not fly my family in the lowest common denominator.

Tell me about it! That's the theme of aviation, isn't it? "You need more airplane than your money will buy."

I totally agree about not flying my family (or myself, for that matter) in the lowest common denominator. But I'm also not sure I really need a plane for the whole family. I've thought about a Cherokee Six (could save up a bit more for a good one) ... but it just doesn't fit my mission 97% of the time. I fly a lot more for solo business trips or just sightseeing with whichever kid wants to go up at the time.

And by the time I had enough in the bank for a nice Cherokee Six or Lance, it's just another small step to (insert nicer/faster plane here). It never ends!

 

[edo2000]

Looked at a Tiger this morning. Beautiful plane and just completed thorough inspection by Dave Fletcher at FletchAir. This one's really, really tempting, although right at the top of my budget at $57k asking price.

It was roomier than I expected. Don't know why I thought the Tiger was a smaller plane (maybe the canopy reminds me of a small experimental) but had enough space to be reasonably comfortable.

Downsides:

— No GPS.

— Engine was overhauled in the late 1990s, then must have spent a long time as a hangar queen. The current owner bought it four years ago and has been flying it regularly ever since, according to the logbooks. So no sign of a current problem, but still. It's low time on an engine that was last overhauled almost two decades ago.

Next up: Hoping to check out a Cherokee 235 and Cardinal in the next few days. Both look like good possibilities.

If it will lift the load you need to lift, a Tiger is hard to beat. I bought one last October and have really enjoyed it.
It is as fast or faster than the 300hp C185 I was flying a couple of years ago on a little more than 1/2 the fuel. The view from the cockpit is better/less obstructed than any aircraft I have flown. Opening the canopy is very useful low budget air conditioning. Systems are dead simple, hopefully maintenance will be affordable. In my previous experience, the Lyc 0-360 is a rock solid engine as long is it is not left inactive for extended periods in humid or marine climates. If the one you are looking at has run regularly for the past four years, has good compressions and no metal in the oil filter after a few hours run time, I would be pretty comfortable with it. Good luck with your search.

 

[somorris]

It seems like 99% of pilots are nothing but tire kickers. Big talk with no *real* intent to ever actually purchase.

I think that is because people like to dream .

There are a few that actually purchase (including yours truly), but even a lot of those leave their new baby sitting in the hangar most of the time after flying it for a year or so. Too many other things in life get in the way. Good intentions to fly down to the beach for the weekend, etc., etc., but people soon realize the rest of the family doesn't want to go, Junior has a soccer tournament this weekend, etc. Soon the pilot doesn't feel comfortable enough with his/her skills, can't justify going flying just for proficiency because of the cost, so the airplane continues to sit.

I think TexasAviation has a good understanding of his needs, or at least it sounds like it to me. A Tiger may not haul the entire family, but is would make a great platform for his mission description. Simple systems means less expensive maintenance and easier to maintain proficiency in. Fuel cost isn't bad, speed is decent and the flying is fun.

 

[James331]

A tiger for over 50k is a VERY expensive plane, not that it's not worth it, but at that price point they will take time to sell.

 

[mkosmo]

Yep, there's definitely some truth to that. Plus, the number of pilots who can afford to write a check for every plane they ever talk about buying has got to be pretty slim. Most of those folks would be more likely to shop for a Gulfstream than a Piper or Cessna, anyway!

As for me, I'll gladly be a tire kicker on a few airplanes while I learn what the market is like. I'm trying to be really upfront with the sellers about it, like, "This is only the second plane I've shopped for in person, and I'm planning to look at a few more." I don't want to mislead them. I might miss out on a good airplane because of that, but I can live with it.

I'm a very serious buyer, but also a patient buyer. That means I'll look like a serious buyer to one seller and look like a tire-kicker to all the others.

If you're up-front like that, I wouldn't lump you in with the tire kickers with a negative connotation.

I think that is because people like to dream .

Me too! And I say something along the lines of "I'm not a serious buyer, just curious." That still (usually) gets the same answer, but I don't feel like I have disrespected their time by leading them on falsely.

 

[SmashTime]

235 is a GREAT choice.

-Stable airframe
-Heavy hauler (my useful was 1,417lbs)
-150mph speed
-Forgiving on a low time pilot

Its is a true 4 person plane +fuel. Backseats are small though, hopefully you're not too tall. If not, scoot the seats up and there will be plenty of room.

 

[edo2000]

A tiger for over 50k is a VERY expensive plane, not that it's not worth it, but at that price point they will take time to sell.

I have to agree. $57K for a tiger should buy a really nice one, especially since you said it doesn't have an IFR gps.

 

[Tom-D]

Looked at a Tiger this morning. Beautiful plane and just completed thorough inspection by Dave Fletcher at FletchAir. This one's really, really tempting, although right at the top of my budget at $57k asking price.

It was roomier than I expected. Don't know why I thought the Tiger was a smaller plane (maybe the canopy reminds me of a small experimental) but had enough space to be reasonably comfortable.

Downsides:

— No GPS.

— Engine was overhauled in the late 1990s, then must have spent a long time as a hangar queen. The current owner bought it four years ago and has been flying it regularly ever since, according to the logbooks. So no sign of a current problem, but still. It's low time on an engine that was last overhauled almost two decades ago.

So What, the engine is now running with no problems. Don't be a tire kicker, brake out the cash.

 

[tawood]

Some of you may recall I've been saving up for my first plane. My plan was to save $60k and buy a $40k plane, leaving $20k in reserve from the get-go (I'm very conservative)....

You sound just like I did 2 years ago. I had been out of aviation for awhile, and I wanted to buy a plane to "get back into it". I saved up $40k, with my own self-imposed spending limit of $25k, so that I'd have $15k in reserve. I still think it is a good plan, but I learned some things, that you may also want to consider:
1) Every $5k or so more that you are willing to spend, will buy you MUCH more aircraft. Buying more expensive planes may actually save you money in the long run, because the plane will be that much nicer, in better shape, etc.
2) If you, like me, can easily save money, you can still save money while owning a plane most of the time....so don't be afraid to tap into that nest egg to get a better plane, because you'll save that nest egg right back up again.

Two years ago I bought a $25k Cessna 150, that had a new motor and was IFR ready...but I sold it after a year and bought a more expensive Cherokee, which was the plane I should have bought in the first place, but didn't because it was above my original spending limit. I saved some more money while owning the Cessna, so I could buy the more expensive Cherokee and still have the $15k nest egg...

And personally, I like this one:

1973 CHEROKEE 180 CHALLENGER • $39,500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 740 hrs on Textron Lycoming factory complete overhaul O-360-A4A engine, TTAF 7444, fresh annual 4/2016 Solid airplane and flies great, IFR certified due 12/2016 with Garmin 430 nav/com with glide slope, King KX175B nav/com LOC, Garmin 327 transponder mode C, Stratus II GPS, KMA-20 audio panel, PS Engineering PM1000 4 place intercom with audio input, Whelen wing tip strobes, Recently replaced turn Coordinator, New Concord RG-35AXC battery, wheel pants, pilot side toe brakes, Hangared • Contact Wade Bradley, Owner - located Hot Springs, AR USA • Telephone: 5018445300 . • Fax: 5018445300 • Posted May 26, 2016 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures

 

[TexasAviation]

Good advice, tawood. And yeah, I saw that Cherokee Challenger pop up for sale yesterday. Looks like a very good option potentially. I rent an Archer II right now, so I think that one would basically be the same as what I'm flying but with a Hershey-bar wing. I don't see too many Garmin 430s in my price range, so that's a huge plus.

I really don't wanna sink a fortune into avionics unless it was a plane I wanted to keep for the rest of my life. I'll let somebody else take that hit. But most of what I can afford has crusty old 1970s radios and boat-anchor Loran systems ... things like that.

Based on the asking prices, I wouldn't mind spending on paint and interior, though. Seems like shiny paint doubles the value of these little planes ... at least in some folks' minds

 

[tawood]

Good advice, tawood. And yeah, I saw that Cherokee Challenger pop up for sale yesterday. Looks like a very good option potentially. I rent an Archer II right now, so I think that one would basically be the same as what I'm flying but with a Hershey-bar wing. I don't see too many Garmin 430s in my price range, so that's a huge plus.

I really don't wanna sink a fortune into avionics unless it was a plane I wanted to keep for the rest of my life. I'll let somebody else take that hit. But most of what I can afford has crusty old 1970s radios and boat-anchor Loran systems ... things like that.

Based on the asking prices, I wouldn't mind spending on paint and interior, though. Seems like shiny paint doubles the value of these little planes ... at least in some folks' minds

Agreed on the paint.

Also (and I'm sure some on here would disagree with me) but I think some people pick an expensive aircraft model above their price range, then try to find a low end example that fits their price range, which ends up being a beater. For me, I felt much better about picking a model of plane that tends to be towards the low end of my price range, then pay a premium for an extra nice example of that model...but that's just me, because I like my stuff super nice, and I'm very O.C. when it comes to keeping things tip-top: I clean my aircraft with q-tips!

 

[tecprotb]

Ever thought about taking on a partner? you could double your buying power and your reserve. Still get 100% use of the plane, unless you plan on flying 24/7.

 

[TexasAviation]

Ever thought about taking on a partner? you could double your buying power and your reserve. Still get 100% use of the plane, unless you plan on flying 24/7.

Not interested. I know it makes logical/financial sense to partner with somebody, but I want my own plane. That's all it boils down to.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Seems like a pretty sweet deal. Low hr airframe and some time left on the engine before recomended overhaul. Looks like it was cared for...
DEAL! VERY CLEAN COMANCHE 250 • $29,700 • REDUCED FOR QUICK SALE • Low Time 1959 Comanche PA-24-250 - 2500 TTSNEW - 1555 SMOH - 240 SPOH - Logs Since New - Always Hangared - No Damage History - Fresh oil change....ready to issue ferry permit!! Ran engine 3 days ago. All compressions good!! Gear Swing is good.....All engine and flight instruments good.... Priced to sell!! Being sold with ferry permit - First $29,700 flies it away!! - Aircraft Located in Redmond, Oregon. Beautiful cross country economical fast aircraft!! Cheaper than C-172's and Cherokee 140's....this is a deal! • Contact Cody W. Ernst, Owner - located Bend, OR USA • Telephone: 760-421-6731 . • Posted May 25, 2016 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures

Okay, educate me guys what exactly is SMOH? and SPOH?

56 years old and no annual. You have no idea what you are getting. Doubt if its been flown much in a long time. Engines like that tend to be short lived. POSSIBLY a lot of other problems too. Old birds like that are A&P fix up projects (that they buy for 1/2 that), NOT a first time plane for a short time pilot. Being sold with a ferry permit. I bet that means hes says "well, you will have to get one". IF its in such good shape, why doesn't he annual it????

I'm trying to understand, how do you know an annual hasn't been done? What exactly is a ferry permit?

Wouldn't you do a inspection, find out what you are getting, then call that inspection an annual, and fly for a year and see what develops ?
Tire Kickers can always think of a reason not to buy.

Would getting a Borescope done be part of the inspection?

It seems like 99% of pilots are nothing but tire kickers. Big talk with no *real* intent to ever actually purchase.

Yep, I'm one of them, (Tire Kicker) but that is why I ask questions on the website so I can learn. I started from scratch, no background in flying didn't know what a fuselage was but I was always interested in flying since birth, had health challenges and overcame them and now I'm flying again. Progress has been slow but I'm enjoying every min of it progress is progress. Take it one step at a time. Can't wait to convert from "Tire Kicker" to airplane owner.

 

[mkosmo]

Okay, educate me guys what exactly is SMOH? and SPOH?

SMOH = Since Major Overhaul = Engine Overhaul
SPOH = Same, but for the prop

I'm trying to understand, how do you know an annual hasn't been done? What exactly is a ferry permit?

Seller indicated that it's out of annual. The ferry permit allows you to fly an aircraft that's (on paper) unairworthy to somewhere else for inspection/repair. It has to be signed by an A&P indicating that the aircraft is airworthy/safe to fly.

Would getting a Borescope done be part of the inspection?

Yep, it absolutely is part of it.

Yep, I'm one of them, (Tire Kicker) but that is why I ask questions on the website so I can learn. I started from scratch, no background in flying didn't know what a fuselage was but I was always interested in flying since birth, had health challenges and overcame them and now I'm flying again. Progress has been slow but I'm enjoying every min of it progress is progress. Take it one step at a time. Can't wait to convert from "Tire Kicker" to airplane owner.

Well, keep on it! We have cookies.

 

[Bonchie]

The 72/73 Cherokee 180s are basically Archers without the tapered wing. They have the stretch cabin, cargo door, the same panel design as the Archer, same engine, etc.

They seem to be priced under your average similar Archer by like 15k for no real reason.

I say that to say that the 1973 Cherokee posted above is a great deal. If you are looking for a good hauler with a 430, you are not going to find a better deal then that on a plane with a below mid-time engine.

The Cherokees are also as close to a real 4 place airplane as you've find in the 180 class. Most have useful loads of around 1000 pounds. Fuel to the tabs, and you've got room for 4 people unless they are obese.

Only thing you might want to do is replace the Comm 2, as those radios are really old, but that can wait. Run them until they die.