What will be the cost?

[Henning]

Well, with all this discussion about users fees going about I was wondering just how much everyone expects their annual cost to be. I'm not providing any per flight or per service refrence because we have none established. What I'm trying to find here is with all the people saying they think it will be the death of GA, exactly what everyone thinks it will take to kill GA. The one reference I will give is an annual 100hrs per year.

BTW, this is the first poll I'm doing so I might f--- it up.

 

[CowboyPilot]

Well, I put less than $250, will use minimum services, and then I also chose "strafing hell out of the tower."

I'm a bad maverick type of guy. I'll keep on flying, STC everything I've got for auto gas, pave my own runway on some land we just recently bought in southwest Texas (just shy of a hundred or so acres) and plan to put in our own runway and shooting range, and do what I damned well please.

I'm about sick of this damned government telling me what I can and can't do and how much it's going to cost me either way.

I see scud-running instruction becoming THE instruction of the future.

Regards.

-JD

 

[Henning]

I see scud-running instruction becoming THE instruction of the future.

Regards.

-JD

That's one thing I can teach.

 

[gprellwitz]

I think that at least initially, the cost will be relatively low, and I'll see enough of a safety benefit to it that I'll continue to use it. I'm not expecting anything to be on a "per flight" or "per contact" basis initially, partially because the administrative costs would be prohibitive. I expect it to be more of a "$x to file a VFR flight plan, $y to file an IFR flight plan, and $z to be eligible to receive WX briefings". Where might it go? Who knows.

 

[KennyFlys]

I'm about sick of this damned government telling me what I can and can't do and how much it's going to cost me either way.

Ditto! I busted my butt to rebuild my life and do it right by all involved. But, government is sure doing its part too make it all that much more difficult.

I listened to Herman Cain this morning filling in for Neal Boortz...

"Government won't make you richer. But, it will make you poorer."

Sadly, the majority capable of doing something about it are too much a slave to even want to try. User fees for GA is just another step to put all under control and take what they can't get from us otherwise.

 

[JRitt]

I think duiring the first couple of years the average (Private) VFR pilot will spend <$100/yr and the average (Private) IFR pilot will spend <$500. I can see the possibility of lawsuits against the FAA when GA is denigned access to services when there is a pay as you play type billing system. For example if ATC denigned a slow single engine access to class B airspace while allowing access to a heavy. I think a good protest would be for a bunch of GA pilots (25 or so to each Class B airport) who have no problems dealing with lots of radio traffic (Class B) to fly to class b airports all in one day and do IFR work (or something similar to tie up the runways a little bit) to cost the airlines money by delaying them in the air so they burn a couple of thousand pounds of extra fuel..

 

[JohnR]

I remember hearing several years ago the New York subway system was losing riders, and their response was to RAISE fares to make up for lost revenue.

Based on that paradigm, there will be a plummet in GA activity initially. Then, when less revenue is flowing in they'll call it a funding shortfall. In response, they will raise user fees so the few still flying will cover the shortfall. Then even fewer will fly. And only one half of one percent of America will care.

I'll use autogas if I can (just out of spite), avoiding even the avgas tax, and use non-towered fields when humanly possible. Hell, I might buy an ultralight and say FU.

 

[Michael]

I expect it to be more of a "$x to file a VFR flight plan, $y to file an IFR flight plan, and $z to be eligible to receive WX briefings".

I wonder if ATC will have the abillity to take credit cards over the radio for those pop up IFR clearances. Same with Flight watch.

 

[ScottM]

Hey! We are giving in to soon. Believing User Fees to inevitable is a self fulfilling prophecy. I for one intend to live my the creed of 'Never Give up, Never Surrender'

 

[fgcason]

I think duiring the first couple of years the average (Private) VFR pilot will spend <$100/yr and the average (Private) IFR pilot will spend <$500. I can see the possibility of lawsuits against the FAA when GA is denigned access to services when there is a pay as you play type billing system. For example if ATC denigned a slow single engine access to class B airspace while allowing access to a heavy.

They already have their fingers in the till in the form of a fuel tax. Now they want more so they declare user fees. A few years down the road, the user fees will increase because it's not enough. Ten, fifteen years later after a fuel tax and high user fees are routine, this whole game starts all over in another form because they need more money so add an annual or monthly flat fee. The day after that goes into effect, someone starts whining about it not being enough and on it goes. Maybe they'll tax a dime per foot on the takeoff/rollout distances, $1 for each time you key the radio and a penny for every 100 revolutions of the engine for the duration of the flight then make NORDO VFR out of Podunk Nowhere a fee service also.

A nickel here, a quarter there isn't much. After a while, those coins start adding up to a prohibitively offensive number. Flying is already horrifically expensive as it is. Increasing the cost of flying will not make it cheaper..and it will not stop them from wanting more money.

I think a good protest would be for a bunch of GA pilots (25 or so to each Class B airport) who have no problems dealing with lots of radio traffic (Class B) to fly to class b airports all in one day and do IFR work (or something similar to tie up the runways a little bit) to cost the airlines money by delaying them in the air so they burn a couple of thousand pounds of extra fuel..

Brilliant. The peasants have a 5 course meal while the king and his knights go hungry. Being guest of honor with the upper class is great...unless you happen to be there laying on the table with an apple in your mouth.


I shall continue to fight user fees like a terrier ripping into a cat. As I wrote to a congresscritter a while back "This is a show stopper. If you want to keep your job mr politician, just say 'no' or get in line at the unemployment office."

 

[tdager]

Hey! We are giving in to soon. Believing User Fees to inevitable is a self fulfilling prophecy. I for one intend to live my the creed of 'Never Give up, Never Surrender'

I am actually with you...but one must always have contingency plans and be thinking of things if they do not go your way.

 

[KennyFlys]

I wonder if ATC will have the ability to take credit cards over the radio for those pop up IFR clearances. Same with Flight watch.

When Phil Boyer was in Atlanta for their town meeting last September, he described the European way. They record the tail numbers and send you a bill. During the times he had flown in Europe, it would take at least six months to receive a bill due to their incredible lack of efficiency. That agency employs more than two-thousand people.

Anyone here in favor of "smaller government?" Dream on!

Oh, and airlines along with the Air Transport Association is and will continue to be our biggest enemy in staying rid of user fees. If they really believe their cost to the federal government is going to decrease because money is being taken from us in the GA sector, their living their own fantasy.

 

[Henning]

I wonder if ATC will have the abillity to take credit cards over the radio for those pop up IFR clearances. Same with Flight watch.

You may not be far off, but it may be simplified. Here you have a subscription to Air Services on file that automatically links your tail number to it, and they either auto debit your account or send you a bill.

 

[mikea]

When it's proposed it'll be $50 a year. then it'll quietly be raised a few times in year end sessions with no notice until it's $500 or more. That to some extent happened in Canada.

Just let the nose into the tent and the rest is easy.

 

[Henning]

When Phil Boyer was in Atlanta for their town meeting last September, he described the European way. They record the tail numbers and send you a bill. During the times he had flown in Europe, it would take at least six months to receive a bill due to their incredible lack of efficiency. That agency employs more than two-thousand people.

Down here it's all automated. If there's one thing Aussies know it's how to collect taxes efficiently.

 

[SCCutler]

Henning, I fear the imposition of a system such as CASA use in Australia, which has the clear effect of discouraging the use of the IFR system.

Safety will suffer, people will die. It's inevitable.

 

[wsuffa]

It WILL, perhaps, be the final nail in the coffin of small GA in the Washington ADIZ and FRZ. It's already discouraging flight, ATC services are REQUIRED, therefore fees will be REQUIRED.

Same with any other TFRs.

Those who don't use services to avoid the fees will find their ability to fly curtailed, again. Those who must fly for personal, family, or business will find they have to pay up.

And the airlines will leverage it into another attempt to kill off GA.

 

[Bill]

What I'm trying to find here is with all the people saying they think it will be the death of GA, exactly what everyone thinks it will take to kill GA.

I have really mixed emotions about buying the Mooney right now. On one hand, from the first lesson 2.5 years ago, I started getting my house in order so I could buy a plane, and that day has come. On the other hand, I hope I don't end up with something I could have paid 1/2 for if I had waited another year.

*sigh*

 

[Keith Lane]

I wonder if ATC will have the abillity to take credit cards over the radio for those pop up IFR clearances. Same with Flight watch.

And how many people will be thinking "Ready to copy" as you give the ATC cashier your credti card info?

 

[SkyHog]

We better not get user fees. Its all AOPA cares about anymore. The government could come up with a resolution tomorrow that bans all GA flights departing non-towered airports and AOPA would respond with "New update, don't fly from non-towered airports. The fight against user fees continues."

I know its an important subject, but its not THE important subject. And AOPA needs to stand up for us more.

 

[KennyFlys]

We better not get user fees. Its all AOPA cares about anymore. The government could come up with a resolution tomorrow that bans all GA flights departing non-towered airports and AOPA would respond with "New update, don't fly from non-towered airports. The fight against user fees continues."

I know its an important subject, but its not THE important subject. And AOPA needs to stand up for us more.

Not so quick... how interested are you in keeping flying affordable for us peons? Mary Peters had previosly told Phil Boyer she was opposed to user fees. That was upon her appointment. Something has since changed.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/13_4b/leadnews/DOT_Secretary_Stumps_For_Fees_194298-1.html

 

[SkyHog]

That's fine, and we should fight user fees (affordability is second only in my mind to availability).

There is no excuse for the ADIZ to exist. There is no excuse for the gov't to shut down the ADIZ to GA during Ford's funeral. There is no excuse for the gov't to shut down NYC airspace when something big goes on there.

You'll notice that for the last 3 things, AOPA has done nothing more than notify us of the restrictions. That is unacceptable.

But hey, guys, User Fees, Am I right??

 

[Henning]

Henning, I fear the imposition of a system such as CASA use in Australia, which has the clear effect of discouraging the use of the IFR system.

Safety will suffer, people will die. It's inevitable.

Of that I have absolutely no doubt, that wasn't my point. My point was strickty technological, as in How will they.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not so quick... how interested are you in keeping flying affordable for us peons? Mary Peters had previosly told Phil Boyer she was opposed to user fees. That was upon her appointment. Something has since changed.

Nothing's changed, she was lying to Phil and I'm pretty sure we all knew it. She was a big proponent of tolls when she was working on highway funding...

 

[Henning]

I have really mixed emotions about buying the Mooney right now. On one hand, from the first lesson 2.5 years ago, I started getting my house in order so I could buy a plane, and that day has come. On the other hand, I hope I don't end up with something I could have paid 1/2 for if I had waited another year.

*sigh*

There's another very interesting aspect. The doubt and wonder involved may drive the entire market down more and may have an adverse effect on the entire support infrastructure as small shops may go under....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That's fine, and we should fight user fees (affordability is second only in my mind to availability).

There is no excuse for the ADIZ to exist. There is no excuse for the gov't to shut down the ADIZ to GA during Ford's funeral. There is no excuse for the gov't to shut down NYC airspace when something big goes on there.

You'll notice that for the last 3 things, AOPA has done nothing more than notify us of the restrictions. That is unacceptable.

But hey, guys, User Fees, Am I right??

It's called pickin' your battles. They did spend a lot of time and energy on the ADIZ and got nowhere. In fact, if anything it got worse.

Besides, user fees ARE a bigger issue than anything else is at the moment.

 

[jesse]

Besides, user fees ARE a bigger issue than anything else is at the moment.

Make me pay $20 to use flight following--and I wouldn't use it.

Make me pay $5 to call flight service--and I wouldn't call them.

I'd substitute for the above using other services but I can say that safety across the board will go down.

 

[Henning]

Make me pay $20 to use flight following--and I wouldn't use it.

Make me pay $5 to call flight service--and I wouldn't call them.

I'd substitute for the above using other services but I can say that safety across the board will go down.

How about $2 and $.50?

 

[SCCutler]

How about $2 and $.50?

My first instinct is, "...that's not so bad."

And that, my friends, is how it starts.

 

[Henning]

My first instinct is, "...that's not so bad."

And that, my friends, is how it starts.

It is, but how far do you think the slippery slope will go was kind of the point of this exercize. Gotta remember, we're part of The New World Order here, and this is the way the world operates. They'll try to get it like Oz here where the government operates with billions in the bank.

 

[Michael]

The pilots who flew for pleasure during the rising fuel cost last summer will be the ones to fork out for the user fees. The ones who sat home and didn't fly because of the money aspect would avoid the fee.
If the fee is 50-100 bucks a year, think about that for a minute. 1 flight last summer cost you 50-100 bucks more than that same flight right now. In most cases. Yet I did not notice the air being any quieter last summer. I think its a non issue. sure it worth fighting, but it will not be the end to GA.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I wonder if ATC will have the abillity to take credit cards over the radio for those pop up IFR clearances. Same with Flight watch.

Note the [SIZE=-1]credit card slot on the right side of the scanner keyboard. On CMH Tower's website: "We have not yet figured out its purpose."

Unfortunately, it may have one in the future.
[/SIZE]

 

[jesse]

How about $2 and $.50?

Just because of the hassle of having to pay them and me being stubborn about the whole issue. I doubt it.

I might just for safety reasons at night--but I also might just not fly at night because of it.

 

[JohnR]

Note the [SIZE=-1]credit card slot on the right side of the scanner keyboard. On CMH Tower's website: "We have not yet figured out its purpose."

Unfortunately, it may have one in the future.
[/SIZE]

You've GOT to be joking.

 

[Bob Bement]

I think most people think that if you fly an airplane you have lots of money. In my case that is just the opposite for me. Because I try to fly an airplane I have no money. If user fees come to pass I will have to quit flying. If I wasn't the airport manager at S49 and if I didn't have a good friend that is an AP and AI that charges me $35.00 an hour I would be done now. I get a free hanger, I fly for the Sheriff and get gas money. My mechanic lets me do all I can legally. My airplane was a airport Queen that took me three years to put together, mainly because of the expense. So you will have to count me out if they start adding user fees to the mix. If the fees are so you only pay if you use something that might be different. I don't fly IFR because my plane is not equiped radio wise. I fly every place I go VFR and have done fairlly well. I don't need to talk to them anyway. I do use Flight watch and usually file a flight plan. But I wouldn't need to. By the way do you have any idea how much we would be charged to give a pilot report.

 

[wsuffa]

My first instinct is, "...that's not so bad."

And that, my friends, is how it starts.

I heard a statement on the radio today that the toll road that's to be built from Austin to Dallas will cost a car between $80 and $120 round trip.

I also know that the Dulles Toll Road outside of DC is being turned over to the airport authority, which plans to increase the tolls significantly in order to fund the extension of Washington's Metro Rail to the airport. The Greenway (beyond the toll road) is privately run, it's toll fees are expected to rise by about 80% in the next 5 years.

The price of a ride on the Dulles Toll Road will rise this spring, and might rise again in about five years, a state transportation panel decided yesterday, essentially taxing commuters as much as $250 extra per year to help pay for the extension of Metrorail in Northern Virginia's tech corridor.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33064-2005Feb17.html

Dulles Greenway Tolls
The private group that owns the Dulles Greenway announced yesterday evening that it wants to raise tolls almost yearly between now and 2012, when the rush hour rate would be $4.80. That's a little more than $2 more than drivers pay now and would mean about $10 a day for commuters, which works out to about $2,500 a year.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/getthere/2006/07/dulles_greenway_tolls.html

 

[mikea]

I heard a statement on the radio today that the toll road that's to be built from Austin to Dallas will cost a car between $80 and $120 round trip.

I also know that the Dulles Toll Road outside of DC is being turned over to the airport authority, which plans to increase the tolls significantly in order to fund the extension of Washington's Metro Rail to the airport. The Greenway (beyond the toll road) is privately run, it's toll fees are expected to rise by about 80% in the next 5 years.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33064-2005Feb17.html



http://blog.washingtonpost.com/getthere/2006/07/dulles_greenway_tolls.html

What 'til the latest scam comes to you. The government SELLS the asset and leases it back. Daley sold the Chicago Skyway to foriegn company. Gov. Blago wants to sell the state lottery. He tried to sell the State of Illinois building in Chicago but the Illinois States Attorney stopped him.

That way when the rates become outrageous in 10 years the pols that got the cash to balance the budget and give more jobs to their pals will be long gone.

 

[Henning]

By the way do you have any idea how much we would be charged to give a pilot report.

Maybe bargain credits? They always ask for PIREPS...

 

[AuntPeggy]

You may not be far off, but it may be simplified. Here you have a subscription to Air Services on file that automatically links your tail number to it, and they either auto debit your account or send you a bill.

On every across the country trip, at least one controller gets my tail number wrong despite my slowing down considerably when reading the difficult part on the first transmission. Who gets billed for my flight? and whose flights do I get billed for?

 

[RogerT]

My feeling is .. initially at least .. they'll just make a national annual
registration fee to cover it. Probably like $100 or something of that
nature. However .. once the process is in place they'll continue
to jack it up every year.