What the $%#% ... Brokers Selling Planes

danhagan

danhagan

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danhagan
Sold my Tiger and am looking to buy something in the RV line. There are a bunch being represented by brokers. My friend was also looking, but bought his a couple of weeks ago and warned me about one I saw on line that was fairly close. He traveled to see two in the same city (bought one of them), but warned me the broker on the other wouldn't even pull it out of the hangar (no test flight, no pre-buy somewhere else).

I'm running into that too now. Do brokers REALLY think you'll buy a plane with the pre-buy conducted by their mechanics and no test flight?
 
must be a sellers market
 
I've found there to be equal amounts of unreasonableness on the part of both buyers and sellers. That said, I'd view this as a sign that this owner and/or broker doesn't really want to put any effort into selling the plane.

I think you'll find that airplane sales, outside of those discussed on web boards like this are often much more casual and the owners or brokers you're trying to work with might be wanting that kind of a purchase. It could be for one of many reasons, but if that doesn't work for you I'd suggest moving on to an airplane with an owner who is agreeable to your terms.
 
I'm guessing that the broker's cut on an RV-something isn't enough to warrant a lot of time spent on test flights/prepurchase inspections.

Not saying that's a good way to do business, but probably a fact of business.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I'm guessing that the broker's cut on an RV-something isn't enough to warrant a lot of time spent on test flights/prepurchase inspections.

Not saying that's a good way to do business, but probably a fact of business.
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So, why would someone selling an RV-something use a broker if they aren't trying to sell the plane?
 
Salty said:
So, why would someone selling an RV-something use a broker if they aren't trying to sell the plane?
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Anonymity probably. Aircraft owned by a business name, broker sells it, buyer never knows who owned it before them.
 
denverpilot said:
Anonymity probably. Aircraft owned by a business name, broker sells it, buyer never knows who owned it before them.
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Maybe so.

Amateur-built planes pose a litigation risk to the seller, if the seller was also the builder.

If I were a builder, I would use a corporation’s name as the builder and as the owner. That way, I would hope that I and my estate would be less likely to get sued when a future owner gets killed.

Selling through a broker might provide a bit more separation between the individual and the plane.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I'm guessing that the broker's cut on an RV-something isn't enough to warrant a lot of time spent on test flights/prepurchase inspections.

Not saying that's a good way to do business, but probably a fact of business.
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Probably some truth there. Plus brokers probably get a lot of tire kickers, so they tend to develop a $$$$ talks, BS walks attitude.

Put a little money an escrow account and have a letter of credit available to the broker to show you are a serious buyer.
 
Which model RV? Approximate price range?

I assume you've checked out Van's Air Force, and various Facebook pages. I saw a nice RV6 for sale yesterday, but I can't recall where...been looking unsuccessfully.
 
There are 2 outstanding "show quality" RVs for sale posted on Vansairforce.com right now. The RV-6 is being sold by an estate of a well known RV builder. The other one is an RV-8 that I'd love to own if I wasn't already 1/2 way through building my own.
 
There is a lot of paranoia when it comes to selling an Experimental airplane. You open your self up very easily to law suits. Probably someone hyper aware of that and trying to protect them self. More times than not when an experimental plane goes down with passenger, the passenger's family tries to sue you. Even if you win you have to pay to fight.
 
wilkersk said:
There are 2 outstanding "show quality" RVs for sale posted on Vansairforce.com right now. The RV-6 is being sold by an estate of a well known RV builder. The other one is an RV-8 that I'd love to own if I wasn't already 1/2 way through building my own.
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Yes, that RV-6 is a work of art. I'd love an RV-8, but enjoy the economy of my RV-4.
 
N3368K said:
Yes, that RV-6 is a work of art. I'd love an RV-8, but enjoy the economy of my RV-4.
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Well, if you like economy, you'd love my little Sonerai. 3.5GPH on MOGAS. Its a bit snug though; think of a kayak with wings!
 
A good friend of mine has a Sonerai. I thought my -4 was cramped until I saw the Soneria cockpit. He is mid wing design rather than low wing.
 
Salty said:
So, why would someone selling an RV-something use a broker if they aren't trying to sell the plane?
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I used a "broker" to sell my airplanes....I just picked one that would put in the effort. Some owners apparently don't understand that relationship.

Apparently the broker is better at selling his services than he is at selling airplanes.
 
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NoHeat said:
If I were a builder, I would use a corporation’s name as the builder and as the owner. That way, I would hope that I and my estate would
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It doesn't work that way.

Anyhow the major issue is probably the large amount of tire kickers. You go take a visual look at the plane. If you're serious, you then make a purchase agreement with a deposit contingent on a prebuy or whatever vetting process you want to use.
 
mondtster said:
I've found there to be equal amounts of unreasonableness on the part of both buyers and sellers. That said, I'd view this as a sign that this owner and/or broker doesn't really want to put any effort into selling the plane.

I think you'll find that airplane sales, outside of those discussed on web boards like this are often much more casual and the owners or brokers you're trying to work with might be wanting that kind of a purchase. It could be for one of many reasons, but if that doesn't work for you I'd suggest moving on to an airplane with an owner who is agreeable to your terms.
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73e8603319102178a4584bf1045514b3.jpg



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Pretty hard to get around the Airworthiness Certificate with the builders name on it.
 
I spoke to a few brokers when looking for a C182. A surprising number acted like they were doing you a huge favour providing basic information such as logs and pictures. At least one potential sale didn't happen simply because the broker was a lazy ass and would never respond to communications.
 
I had the same problem 15 years ago when I was looking. Finally found what I wanted via the local A/P who was at a AI renewal and talking with some other folks. He gave me a call, I talked to the A/P that knew the plane and I looked at it and bought it. You never know where a lead will come from.
 
N3368K said:
Which model RV? Approximate price range?

I assume you've checked out Van's Air Force, and various Facebook pages. I saw a nice RV6 for sale yesterday, but I can't recall where...been looking unsuccessfully.
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Familiar with all that are up currently, including the ones they're trying to use a broker so that the broker can claim they weren't aware of previous damage. Looking for an RV6A or RV7A. Missed out on two VERY nice ones as I didn't want to own 2 planes at once and didn't realize how fast the Tiger would sell.

wilkersk said:
There are 2 outstanding "show quality" RVs for sale posted on Vansairforce.com right now. The RV-6 is being sold by an estate of a well known RV builder. The other one is an RV-8 that I'd love to own if I wasn't already 1/2 way through building my own.
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Saw both, they're nice, but the wife won't be able to get into the RV8 ... I'm in great shape and riding in my buddies RV8 for hamburger runs is a bit of a pain entering.
 
danhagan said:
...riding in my buddies RV8 for hamburger runs is a bit of a pain entering.
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If it's difficult for a Tiger pilot then I can't imagine how impossible it would be for someone used to a Cessna.
 
danhagan said:
Sold my Tiger and am looking to buy something in the RV line. There are a bunch being represented by brokers. My friend was also looking, but bought his a couple of weeks ago and warned me about one I saw on line that was fairly close. He traveled to see two in the same city (bought one of them), but warned me the broker on the other wouldn't even pull it out of the hangar (no test flight, no pre-buy somewhere else).

I'm running into that too now. Do brokers REALLY think you'll buy a plane with the pre-buy conducted by their mechanics and no test flight?
Click to expand...

I sold a Tiger and bought an RV last April. I ran into *exactly* the same situation with a broker. I wanted a -7 or a -9 and hadn't been around them at all. One broker, can't remember the name for sure but sounds like it might be the same guy, had three RV's listed but told me that I couldn't even *see* the aircraft until I chose one, we agreed on a price, and I deposited the money in escrow. I am not kidding. I explained I had just sold an aircraft and delivered it to its new owner in Texas, I had cash in hand, I was going to purchase an RV *soon*. I also asked him what happens if I don't like the airplane after I see it? He said- the specs and photos are in the advertisements; if anything is not as represented, I just have to demonstrate what that is and the deal would be "adjusted". I asked him a few more questions to confirm that he was serious, then I hung up.

My theory on this is- the airplanes were all in different cities, and the broker is probably somewhere else entirely. He may not have a local "agent" to unlock the hangar and show me the aircraft. He is not willing to invest the effort and/or money it takes to show the airplane so he waits by the phone until he gets someone to escrow money before bothering to do anything. Guys like this must drive off a whole lot of motivated buyers; I know that I ran the other way. My advice for sellers- a broker could easily be more of an obstacle than a help. Get references or at least have a buddy pretend to be an interested buyer to see how he/she is treated. My Tiger sold in 2 months; no broker; I put one 30-day ad on Barnstormers.

Good luck in the RV search. I hope you find a nice one.
 
It's my experience that aircraft brokers make used car dealers look like saints.
 
For those who have sold their planes themselves, how many “tirekickers” did you have to deal with? And those that wanted a free ride?
 
I've only dealt with one broker. He couldn't convince the seller that he was going to have to eat the cost of expensive and unnecessary avionics he'd just installed. He couldn't convince me either. Wound up dodging a bullet, even if he'd have sold it for our offering price.

Dealt with an individual seller, and while ids was in the process of arranging an out of state inspection, he sold it to another buyer who just popped up, for less than what we would have offered.

You win some, you lose some.
 
teejayevans said:
For those who have sold their planes themselves, how many “tirekickers” did you have to deal with? And those that wanted a free ride?
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I had tons of e-mails and phone calls to answer, but the only one who came to look bought it. I had one guy turn me down by e-mail saying he wanted a nicer looking plane, then got mad when I ignored later phone calls and e-mails asking to meet up so he could see it.
 
Like @Grum.Man, I had a lot calls and emails. Scanning and sending a lot of photos and documents to "interested" parties. Our little town is pretty out of the way, so I only had one person come to see the airplane at my home base and he did not buy. The actual buyer put a substantial deposit down fairly quickly, but then did not come to complete the deal. He was a fairly new pilot and kept mentioning weather as a problem for him to get the airplane home(500 mile trip). I made the mistake of offering to deliver it, for expenses, and he jumped on that. So I ended up 500 miles from home with the aircraft, before the deal was complete. It worked out OK, put I probably wouldn't do it that way again.
 
asicer said:
If it's difficult for a Tiger pilot then I can't imagine how impossible it would be for someone used to a Cessna.
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The REAR seat on the RV8 is a pain, but not impossible. My friend's 84 year old dad gets into it, so I don't mention anything around my buddy (we're both 55). The Tiger and the side-by-side RV's, no problem.

edo2000 said:
I sold a Tiger and bought an RV last April. I ran into *exactly* the same situation with a broker. My Tiger sold in 2 months; no broker; I put one 30-day ad on Barnstormers.
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El Paso isn't convenient for buyers to check things out, so I made sure the Barnstormers images were in BRIGHT sunglight, logs scanned, etc with additional images I could e-mail. I think I may have had 15-20 callers, with ALL of them pretty serious. Had a pre-buy contract on day 2 of the ad, I failed to take a deposit (my fault) and waited 2 weeks for him to get financing with EVERYONE behind him asking me to push him aside and let them buy it. I delivered it to FletchAir for the pre-buy for him (it had been there on 2 other pre-buys, so no big surprises).

teejayevans said:
For those who have sold their planes themselves, how many “tirekickers” did you have to deal with? And those that wanted a free ride?
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Got lucky, pretty much NONE. Maybe the Cessna owners have more trouble in this arena.

edo2000 said:
The actual buyer put a substantial deposit down fairly quickly, but then did not come to complete the deal. He was a fairly new pilot and kept mentioning weather as a problem for him to get the airplane home(500 mile trip). I made the mistake of offering to deliver it, for expenses, and he jumped on that. So I ended up 500 miles from home with the aircraft, before the deal was complete. It worked out OK, put I probably wouldn't do it that way again.
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I didn't do the deposit like you did, but if I ever have to sell again, I will.
 
NoHeat said:
If I were a builder, I would use a corporation’s name as the builder and as the owner.
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I actually don't think this is allowed. To get the airworthiness certificate, a single, real person's name has to go on it.
 
I am in the marke for a 310 and a serious buyer (as in I am going to buy one and the first one that fits my needs/price). I have found 2 close, one basically in my town and because it was he weekend, I emailed them. No response from either (both brokers/businesses). Maybe they figure if I were serious, I would call, I even included my number on the email. Hopefully I can work a deal on an off market one I found, don't really want to deal with the brokers based on my limited experience and this thread.

Jim
 
Yes. When I bought a plane 18 and again 6 years ago I was shocked that most brokers ignored my emails and calls. I was serious and couldn't even get in touch with the brokers ! If the sellers only knew !!! Thousands of dollars in commissions and the guys won't even answer a phone call !!! WTF ! So when I sold mine, I sold it myself. A couple of buyers never showed up to see the plane. Third one showed up and bought it after we agreed on a pre-buy inspection. A few small problems showed up in the indpection. We had them fixed at my expense, shook hands and all left happy. Well, I was a little sad to see a great plane fly away with someone else
..

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Topper said:
Maybe they figure if I were serious, I would call,
Jim
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I just sold a semi-classic car... can't tell you how may emails I shagged regarding a questions about the vehicle. After the third email I stopped wasting my time with them. The guy that bought it was the guy that picked up the phone and called me and then had some follow up emails. When I noted the car was sold on the forum website a few responded back with "hey why didn't you call me...." Sorry, I had a detailed description a long with my phone number... in my mind if you're serious, you'll pick up the phone and engaged in a conversation..

A friend of mine bought a 172XP and it went through a broker... told me the experience was pleasant... But, he was taken a bit aback when the broker asked "how serious are you, how do you plan to pay for it, and when do you plan to buy..." As noted to my friend, to me these are legitimate questions and he is qualifying your level of interest and if you're able to follow through... Time is money!!!!
 
teejayevans said:
For those who have sold their planes themselves, how many “tirekickers” did you have to deal with? And those that wanted a free ride?
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I had numerous tire kickers and one that came and looked and wanted a free ride (I gave it to him). Several called and wanted to bargain me down. Two wanted ME to deliver the plane to them for inspection with no comitment to buy or agreement on price. Two said some suspicious stuff (about where their money was or how I was to be paid). As a seller I have a right to know if a potential buyer has the money or not. Its not wrong to ask where the money is coming from and state that a cashiers check or electronic transfer is going to be ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED before transferring ownership and expect them to agree on that one. "Yes, no problem" is what I want to hear. Finally a guy called, we agreed on a price over the phone and HE came and got it. (He could have backed out). No contract, no money changing hands until he inspected it. He and his friend that flew him out stayed at my house. Good guy. Owned a car dealership in his own town. Had owned airplanes before.

Best way to weed out the non-serious ones is to start talking about how they are going to deliver their money to you, where their money is, and see what they say. If they are serious, they will have positive, believable response. Its reasonable to ask and reasonable to expect cooperative answers, not evasion. Ask them if they have a pilots license, where they got it etc. other ratings. Ask if they have ever owned a plane before, if so what kind for how long etc. They should be willing to open up about their life in regard to aircraft, money, ratings etc. You as a buyer have the right to ask them such questions.

As the seller you have an obligation to represent the airplane honestly. A prebuy and a testflight are reasonable requests though I wouldnt want my plane taken apart by a mechanic on speculation. Buyer can see if everything works, and do a compression test and look in inspection holes for corrosion etc. He CANNOT start taking off components. Nor does his mechanic have the right to "ground" the airplane based on what he finds. NO WAY! Also, he pays the mechanic doing the work IN ADVANCE verified by me!
 
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I recently sold a Bonanza. Listed it myself, had a few come to my hangar.
I live close to the airport, and don't mind spending time there. Never inconvenient to swing by. One guy a couple hundred miles away wanted a look, so I flew it to his home airport. Hey- flying is fun! Sure isn't a chore, just a good excuse to fly.
A broker brought the guy who bought the airplane, so I was happy to give him a commission. The broker was very professional, and made sure all the paperwork was in order.
I flew the airplane to the pre-buy, no charge to the buyer. Just another reason to fly.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Best way to weed out the non-serious ones is to start talking about how they are going to deliver their money to you, where their money is, and see what they say. If they are serious, they will have positive, believable response. Its reasonable to ask and reasonable to expect cooperative answers, not evasion. Ask them if they have a pilots license, where they got it etc. other ratings. Ask if they have ever owned a plane before, if so what kind for how long etc. They should be willing to open up about their life in regard to aircraft, money, ratings etc. You as a buyer have the right to ask them such questions.
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When I sold my Tomahawk I had asked what eventually became the buyer "with all the bad press these little planes get, why do you want to buy one...?" Oye... I had to ask!!!!! :D
When he shouted Why!!!!!!!..... this is when I knew I had a serious buyer on the other end.. or someone that suffered from Tomahawk Demetria Syndrome...

When we did the pre-buy inspection I flew the plane to a shop we both knew that were very familiar with Tomahawks.. and where the owner I had bought it from was taking it. I had no problem leaving it there unsupervised... They way I figured it if we got this far they we vested and it was just a matter of working out a few kinks... Needles to say there were no surprises on the pre-buy and it went pretty smooth from there.

I have heard of some sellers taking a non-refundable deposit at the pre-buy to cover any issues the inspecting A&P may cause.... personally this is not someone I would want to work with.
 
danhagan said:
Do brokers REALLY think you'll buy a plane with the pre-buy conducted by their mechanics and no test flight?
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I do... last month sold my 172 that way. I did however have a fresh annual, I posted new pictures and had entire scans of all the log books. Also I received no less than 20 calls the first day from a single post on Barnstormers. The buyer put a deposit on the plane the 2nd day it was listed, I also got full asking price. I continued to receive calls/emails for about a week (Maybe another 50). I replied to everyone, even the one liners offering 70% of my asking price.

If you’re a buyer and localish offer a deposit to come look at it, then negotiate and lock in until a prebuy (whatever’s you want done) which may include a flight. If you’re not local then negotiate in good faith based on what you would actually pay and then offer a deposit to lock the deal until you can work through the pre-buy process.
 
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