What questions to ask when buying first plane/LSA?

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
For the CH250 it seems unlikely that something with an IO-360 is going to squeeze in. The kit spec says max weight of 1450 which is too heavy.
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For E-AB the builder can put anything he wants down for gross weight, and quite a few homebuilts have a builder specified 1320 gross even though the kit maker says more is OK, which makes it LSA compliant if it also meets the speed limits. The speeds are harder to check or enforce, but it has to pass the giggle test, and an IO-360 might make the FAA inspector laugh out loud during a ramp check...
 
O-320 was what was mentioned, but I don't think that removes the LOL factor
 
"What questions to ask when buying first plane/LSA?"

Will you take a personal check?
 
Will the plane be eligible for the weight increase in 2023?
 
A bird in hand is worth two in NPRM.
 
Nobody knows what will happen in 2023.

If anything.
 
Daleandee said:
If I was a bettin' man ... I wouldn't!
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Good grief…. If 2023 brings LSA changes and they include weight changes…. 2023 is the supposed year we get MOSIAC changes. Yes, not guaranteed. Guess we will see if the FAA can complete anything as always. :)
 
John Spartan said:
Good grief…. If 2023 brings LSA changes and they include weight changes…. 2023 is the supposed year we get MOSIAC changes. Yes, not guaranteed. Guess we will see if the FAA can complete anything as always. :)
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Wasn't this supposed to be mostly done already? The FAA is really good at can kickin' ...

Don't misunderstand me, I hope we get some real upgrades for us sport guys, but I ain't holding my breath!
 
Daleandee said:
Wasn't this supposed to be mostly done already? The FAA is really good at can kickin' ...

Don't misunderstand me, I hope we get some real upgrades for us sport guys, but I ain't holding my breath!
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Wise not to hold your breath. Save that until we see how much what the FAA gives us smells. But at the same time you gotta hope for something.
 
I am new to the game. I have read about the possible mosaic changes for LSA. I am new to aviation and need to stick with sport pilot until the new regs come out because 3rd class medical is going to be a challenge for me. what is my move? rent for the next 1-4 years and see what happens? Bite the bullet and buy and LSA and possibly lose some $$$ if the regs change a lot. My worry is buying something and it becoming obsolete or undesirable because who wants a 2-seater when they can fly a 4-seater with a sport pilot license.
 
Michael Gallagher said:
I am new to the game. I have read about the possible mosaic changes for LSA. I am new to aviation and need to stick with sport pilot until the new regs come out because 3rd class medical is going to be a challenge for me. what is my move? rent for the next 1-4 years and see what happens? Bite the bullet and buy and LSA and possibly lose some $$$ if the regs change a lot. My worry is buying something and it becoming obsolete or undesirable because who wants a 2-seater when they can fly a 4-seater with a sport pilot license.
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Are we that optimistic that they will expand the privileges that much in the next couple of years?
 
Michael Gallagher said:
I am new to the game. I have read about the possible mosaic changes for LSA. I am new to aviation and need to stick with sport pilot until the new regs come out because 3rd class medical is going to be a challenge for me. what is my move? rent for the next 1-4 years and see what happens? Bite the bullet and buy and LSA and possibly lose some $$$ if the regs change a lot. My worry is buying something and it becoming obsolete or undesirable because who wants a 2-seater when they can fly a 4-seater with a sport pilot license.
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So you really intend to fly with 3 passengers? If so wait and maybe you get lucky but that seems unlikely. If you plan to fly solo or one passenger and have the means I’d buy. Renting in LSA can be tough to find.
 
John Spartan said:
So you really intend to fly with 3 passengers? If so wait and maybe you get lucky but that seems unlikely. If you plan to fly solo or one passenger and have the means I’d buy. Renting in LSA can be tough to find.
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Ugh. I would love to be able to fly with my wife and two kids eventually. I have the means to buy, but don't want to waste money. However, I also don't want to be shut out from flying because I fail the 3rd class medical when I should have stuck with sport.
 
Michael Gallagher said:
Ugh. I would love to be able to fly with my wife and two kids eventually. I have the means to buy, but don't want to waste money. However, I also don't want to be shut out from flying because I fail the 3rd class medical when I should have stuck with sport.
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I am in exactly the same boat as you (minus one child). Where are you located?
 
Michael Gallagher said:
Ugh. I would love to be able to fly with my wife and two kids eventually. I have the means to buy, but don't want to waste money. However, I also don't want to be shut out from flying because I fail the 3rd class medical when I should have stuck with sport.
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Are you certain about the 3rd class? Obviously you should keep the details private but make sure to talk to an AME and do some research. Special Issuance seems to be more common than we realize apparently.
 
John Spartan said:
Are you certain about the 3rd class? Obviously you should keep the details private but make sure to talk to an AME and do some research. Special Issuance seems to be more common than we realize apparently.
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For me at least, I'm sure that I could obtain one eventually. I've talked to a couple of doctors and the AOPA. The issue, in my case, is the duration and cost of the fight. I can solo an LSA as soon as my CFI says I can, but to do the same in a 172 may take years and thousands of dollars in tests for all I know.
And the non-monetary cost of not succeeding is complete grounding.
LSA availability is the biggest issue for me at the moment. Hence this thread. If RV-12s were as plentiful as Cessna's around here, things would be so much easier :(
 
Baked Potato said:
For me at least, I'm sure that I could obtain one eventually. I've talked to a couple of doctors and the AOPA. The issue, in my case, is the duration and cost of the fight. I can solo an LSA as soon as my CFI says I can, but to do the same in a 172 may take years and thousands of dollars in tests for all I know.
And the non-monetary cost of not succeeding is complete grounding.
LSA availability is the biggest issue for me at the moment. Hence this thread. If RV-12s were as plentiful as Cessna's around here, things would be so much easier :(
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That’s understandable and I’d consider that path too with the factors you describe. That hard part is whether Mosaic will deliver any real changes and if they will be here in 2023. I’ve seen several 12s for sale around the usual places. Controller. Hanger67. Trade-A-Plane. Barnstormers. I’m probably missing one too. The real question is… will prices drop more soon?
 
I get what you are saying. Years of delay. I have had some life events that make me want to take advantage of what life has to offer. I would pay the steep monetary costs if I could apply for and/or get a 3rd class without losing the sport pilot option. On the other hand, I am in the very fortunate position that I have had a prosperous career and could buy a light sport aircraft (to avoid the downside of not being able to rent), but I want to avoid losing $50k by buying an LSA and then realizing the new LSA criteria make whatever I buy hard to sell. Not the end of the world, just trying to be smart.

I would love to go balls to the wall and go for 3rd class. I may hire Dr. Bruce and at least see what my chances are without formally applying via medxpress.
 
Put another way…. I’d buy an LSA RIGHT NOW if I had the means and knew I was going SPL. I’m still working my plan to be in position to buy in 2 years. Go for it!
 
And be aware that Rotax TBO is 2000 hours. I didn’t see if there was an “OR X YEARS”. The used plane has a little over 300 hours left to rebuild. Figure 3-4 years of flying then it’s engine time. Do lots of research of course. Hope you get one! Will be happy for you. If you need a passenger in the PHX area let me know. I really want to fly in an LSA. :)
 
Michael Gallagher said:
A new one sounds great! don't know if that is practical for a budding aviator or not.
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What do you mean? You would literally be flying in the plane you trained in or darn close to it. Of course the whole LSA mantra was “easy to fly” and for budding aviators before it became the alternative for people who don’t go 3rd class. If the cost is doable, I’d buy new just because people are having so much hassle with getting overhauls and Rotax does mean you have to find a Rotax service center to do it I think.
 
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on regs or trying to time the market. It's an expensive hobby and you'll pay your dues one way or another in the long run. Get your ticket, rent for a while, then buy a used LSA and learn how to be an owner. Maybe by then you can get into some 4 seat MOSAIC hotness, maybe not.
 
Baked Potato said:
What about this listing:
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=ZENAIR/ZENITH&model=CH250&listing_id=2407286&s-type=aircraft
(it's a well-equipped ZENAIR/ZENITH CH250)

I am curious about these notes though:
"142 KTAS cruise
Lycoming O-320 160HP. In theory the tuned exhaust adds 10-15 HP, so call it 170 HP"

Doesn't that put it in excess of the LSA specifications?
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I looked at that too - one flag was 1900 hrs, 200 "SOH" - was that a top overhaul, or a real major? Could be semantics, but being an experimental registered in Canada, an orphaned model, and almost certainly over the 1320 lb max, I skipped past it. The EAA probaly has the Canda-to-USA process figured out, and if a Candaian airplane looks really good, that might be worth looking into.
 
Sundancer said:
I looked at that too - one flag was 1900 hrs, 200 "SOH" - was that a top overhaul, or a real major? Could be semantics, but being an experimental registered in Canada, an orphaned model, and almost certainly over the 1320 lb max, I skipped past it. The EAA probaly has the Canda-to-USA process figured out, and if a Candaian airplane looks really good, that might be worth looking into.
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I always ask to see pictures of the log entries for the overhaul before taking the time to go out and see the plane. I also ask for pictures of the last 2 annuals (if I can't get full digital logs).
 
AGLyme said:
First: in MY opinion, it is harder to land (well) than the standard issue Cessna and Piper at every flight school. It took me until the 90 hours mark to feel extremely comfortable in all landing situations. And adjusting the flight controls for cross wind takeoffs is absolutely critical. And never ever take off with wind behind you... early tough lessons.
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I share your opinion, except my points of comparison included a taildragger (which is what I began my flying in from the outset). I only got 3 hours and 8 landings in a CTSW. At the time, I had 240 total time, of which 40 were in the Cub and most of the rest were in Hershey bar Pipers (Cherokee and Arrow). The CTSW was more challenging than the Cub and I’m not surprised that it would take ~100 hours to get comfortable in it.

It’s also a fantastic little plane. The one I flew had an autopilot, glass panel, etc. It also had a ballistic parachute. If I were going to travel long distances in an LSA, I think the FlightDesign CT planes set the benchmark. I haven’t flown an RV-12 but I built and fly an RV-14 and, if there is any comparison at all, the RV-12 would be another good choice for the LSA travel mission.

If you find yourself looking at an amateur built plane, then your prebuy information gathering should include as much as you can learn about who built it and who has maintained it since then. See if you can get the build logs and/or pictures and find out if the builder had A&P experience or an A&P or other mentor helping along the way to ensure things got done right. There’s nothing to be afraid of in an amateur-built plane, but some amateur builders might be scary.
 
iamtheari said:
find out if the builder had A&P experience or an A&P or other mentor helping along the way to ensure things got done right.
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My (admittedly limited) experience would suggest that having an A&P involved can mean little to nothing in terms of things being "done right".
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
My (admittedly limited) experience would suggest that having an A&P involved can mean little to nothing in terms of things being "done right".
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That’s true. But it’s a piece of information I would find useful in evaluating the build quality. My A&P friend was particularly helpful in learning how to work with aluminum, getting the fuel tanks sealed, and rigging the engine controls.

Also, ask the builder how much of a scrap heap he accumulated during the build. If he doesn’t have a good scrap heap, it probably means he left his mistakes in the plane. (People always say to “practice on scrap aluminum” but I just tell people that I run an equal opportunity shop, where every piece of aluminum has an equal opportunity to become scrap.)
 
To start with, you have the fixed costs, that you pay no matter if you fly 1 hour per year or 100 hours. This includes hangar/tie down rent, insurance, the loan, annual inspections.

Then, you have the operating costs, fuel, oil, oil changes, and maintenance.

What you need to do, it figure out your fixed costs, then talk to owners (NOT sellers) about their ACTUAL operating costs. And look into parts availability. Skycatchers have issues with the doors being damaged, and Cessna is not making any more. And the last one Cessna sold, cost $23,000. For ONE door.
 
For a factory built S-LSA you meed to to be sure modifications have been authorized by the manufacturer. I'm just getting into this arena, not an expert, but in talking with some EAA folks, a guy who worked for a S-LSA manufacturer, and some Google-foo, that means literally ANY modification - avionics included. For the manufacturers still in business I imagine a phone call would do it, once you see the airworthiness cert and logs - but for a company that's out of business you may need to check with a type club - and I've no clue what you'd do to add/remove anything - I came across a S-LSA that has a current condition inspection, but also has mods not approved by the manufacturer. . .
 
Sundancer said:
For a factory built S-LSA you meed to to be sure modifications have been authorized by the manufacturer. I'm just getting into this arena, not an expert, but in talking with some EAA folks, a guy who worked for a S-LSA manufacturer, and some Google-foo, that means literally ANY modification - avionics included. For the manufacturers still in business I imagine a phone call would do it, once you see the airworthiness cert and logs - but for a company that's out of business you may need to check with a type club - and I've no clue what you'd do to add/remove anything - I came across a S-LSA that has a current condition inspection, but also has mods not approved by the manufacturer. . .
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If your manufacturer goes out of business you just to switch to E-LSA which is what it was designed for - then you can do pretty much anything you want as long as you keep your plane within LSA category ( so no turbine mods )
 
Warmi said:
If your manufacturer goes out of business you just to switch to E-LSA which is what it was designed for - then you can do pretty much anything you want as long as you keep your plane within LSA category ( so no turbine mods )
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Maybe not: A DAR has to be satisfied the S-LSA is "as manufactured" and/or has LOAs for any mods BEFORE he/she can let you move it to E-LSA. That's my understanding from folks who should know. I'm walking away from one right now that's problematic. It's a shame, too.
 
Sundancer said:
Maybe not: A DAR has to be satisfied the S-LSA is "as manufactured" and/or has LOAs for any mods BEFORE he/she can let you move it to E-LSA. That's my understanding from folks who should know. I'm walking away from one right now that's problematic. It's a shame, too.
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Yes then remove any mods that were installed post manufacture that violate “as manufactured” status and then after you have it approved and moved to E-ELSA , do whatever mods you want.
I mean at some point , if whoever owned the plane before went nuts end ended up with tons of illegal mods that preclude you from having it certified “as manufactured” ,it would be wise to walk away but that’s true with any plane that has been taken out of whatever regulations and rules apply to it …

I guess what I am trying to say is that if the original problem is that the manufacturer no longer exists and you cannot get anything approved, if the plane is pretty much as it was when it was originally purchased, you will not have any problems moving it to E-LSA category and taking it from there …
 
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