What Plane to Buy

[Brent Perry]

Hello,

I hope everyone is well, and yes, I am new to the forum and wanted to start off with a question for you guys.
I would like to buy a plane for training for all my ratings (PPL, Inst, ME, Comm - possibly CFI ratings) to eventually get hired by a regional Airline. I have been around aviation for the past 24 years, (Navigator in the AF and ready to begin transitioning to my next career as a pilot) and would like some advice on what plane to get.
My Mission: Flight training for myself that will include some trips with my wife and or my son (he might be getting his PPL as well - pending interest and time - he is 6ft 7in tall) and want to spend less than 40K on the aircraft.
Me: I am 6ft 6in tall and weigh 230lbs, my wife is 6ft tall and...Not small. I would like an aircraft that wont break me financially so looking at less than 10GPH consumption on fuel, open to MOGAS STC aircraft to save some money. I have been looking at some experimental aircraft and love the idea of being able to modify/work on it without having a A&P or Radio tech every time I want to do something. Issue with the experimental is weight, the useful loads on many of these is less than 500lbs, probably not going to work for me and the wife including fuel, not to mention bags and stuff. I will be tying the aircraft down at $50 per month, so not looking for a plane that is necessarily "pretty" as the sun will just tear it up. Thinking and older plane but needs to have less than half of the TSMOH available on the plane.
Cessna 172: Right now, I am thinking this is the one - probably cause I have about 20hrs in this aircraft and it is the one I know and practically every A&P on the planet knows how to work on it. It is also large enough and can easily take my wife with me (maybe the kid too depending on fuel load) but burns 8gph. I can however get the STC for MOGAS for most of the aircraft with approved motors I have looked at so far. I have found several that are available between 20-40K, completely inside my wheel house on $$$.
Cessna 152: I think this is simply too small, so I have all but eliminated it.
I have looked at Piper Warriors too, so they are in the running, but the low wing aircraft is less than desired compared to the high wing Cessna as I like the view out the window.
Experimental Zenith 601XLB: In the running and can be had for around 20K, but it is an experimental with unconventional engines, although it does have enough useful load for me and the wife, just not with full fuel tanks less than 5GPH fuel burn. Not normally eligible to be IFR certified (or even get enough instruments on it to simulate IFR).
AMD Alarus CH2000: Can be had for less than 30K, but only a two seater but has the IFR setup I am looking for, has acceptable useful load and less than 5GPH fuel burn.


Thoughts? Any planes I left out that I should be looking at?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Crashnburn]

First of all, forget 40K. Really! Second, don’t worry about full tanks, just the weight of four hours of fuel at Cruise. The 172 and 152 are non-starters. Maybe a Cessna 182, early model because older is usually less to buy, but not necessarily to maintain.

As far as experimental she go, buy rather than build unless you want to spend your time building, not flying. The big advantage of experimentals is you aren’tbeholden to the manufacturer for ordinary parts. Also, you can usually buy for less than you can build.

Be sure to try on any plane you are interested in. Until I read your post, I thought I was tall at 6’3, and I have a hard time finding planes I can comfortably fit into. Look for cockpit dimensions on the internet and also get Airplane Ownership. I don’t know Ron, but he’s a regular here on POA. I learned a lot of valuable information reading his book.

 

[Brent Perry]

Thank you for the reply:

"forget 40K" ? What should I be expecting then?

As far as experimental aircraft go, yes, I will be buying NOT building. Nothing against it, but I am looking to fly. And you are correct, it is cheaper to buy (though this baffles me and seems counter productive to even build them...whatever)

Ill checkout that book, thanks!

 

[Eldorado]

I’ve seen some good cessna 175’s that might fit the parameters. Although the geared engines had a bad reputation early on, I’ve seen them last to two if flown right, ie don’t baby them. They would give you the extra horses you need with the airframe you are familiar with. They are cheaper than 172 since flight schools don’t drive the prices up. I think they have tremendous value.

 

[Brent Perry]

I appreciate that, I have looked at the 175, burns around 10gph with a little increase in performance but it is questionable on whether or not it is "worth" it. BUT, the 175 I have seen is less than 20K

Always a trade off. Thanks again.

 

[Sinistar]

I really think you should be thinking a budget of $65k...$85k when all is said and done. By that I mean enough to get the plane, first annual (often$$$$) and any req'd avionics like ADSB out, simple navigator, etc.

I trained (PPL) in the 182. If you are going to be building lots of time you'll love the room and power. 6'6" is no problem...probably same in a Cardinal. But all that training time at 11gph will get spendy. Great for all 3 of you though.

For high wings I'd be thinking Cardinal (with 180hp and CS prop) or older 182. You're gonna gets lots of low wing recommendations but I would give them serious thought as well.

You might also want to pause for about 6 months to 1yr. If there is a prolonged recession and all the demand for new pilots remains squashed, plane prices should trend down. And since you really dont save that much training in your own plane you could knock out your PPLs in rentals and try both high and low wings.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

There's another thread on here by another 6 1/2 footer that you might find interesting. And there's not just one of you, but two plus one nearly as tall! So you're going to be sized out of a lot of planes. Forget the 152, I'm 6'4" and I can't fly one of those. It's not even about comfort - it's that my knees are either jammed up under the yoke or jammed into the (full) throttle. It simply wouldn't be safe whatsoever.

The C182 is the way to go if you're set on a high wing, and it's a great first plane to own. There's a ton of them for sale so you should be able to find one that fits your desires, maintain it easily, and then sell it easily when you're done with it. The catch is, they're so dang useful that there's a lot of demand for them and thus your $40K budget is highly unlikely to fetch you a good one.

The other thing you should look into is the Piper Comanche line. The PA24-180 and PA24-250 will be the most affordable to purchase, and the 180 should hit your 10gph number. Cabin is comfortable, mpg is excellent, and you can even do your complex requirements in it... But that also means you'll need to insure a retractable-gear airplane as a student, which can be costly.

One of those two is likely going to be the way to go for you. You'll have to weigh the budget against the importance of the high wing and low fuel burn. You won't get the all.

 

[wrbix]

Be careful...where most of us get forehead indents from 172s, y’all are likely to lose teeth.

 

[bflynn]

I agree, 40k doesn't buy much of an airplane these days.

Cessna, a 152, maybe an older 172
Piper, a Cherokee 140
Mooney, a VFR M20C

As noted above, you're likely to spend more money on the first annual. What you'll get is really a 2 seat airplane, due to space or useful load restrictions.

The only "common" airplane I can see that fits your criteria would be a 1940-50s V tail Bonanza, but maintenance costs are really high because the aircraft are so old. Is parts availability a problem?

Also keep in mind that your goal isn't really to get to 1500 hours directly because your airplane won't get you all the experience you need - missing twin and turbine. You want to get through IFR and commercial in your plane, then probably get a twin rating so that you can get hired somewhere to build hours. Instructing is another option.

If you're not too old, the military is the best option for building hours. Roughly...60%?...of 121 pilots are former military. On some airlines, it's closer to 90.

 

[Sinistar]

Given his first post hes got plenty of flight time as a Nav (B52?). And with 24yrs of aviation it's hard to imagine hed go back in as a pilot. OP will have to address that.

 

[Brent Perry]

I really think you should be thinking a budget of $65k...$85k when all is said and done. By that I mean enough to get the plane, first annual (often$$$$) and any req'd avionics like ADSB out, simple navigator, etc.

I trained (PPL) in the 182. If you are going to be building lots of time you'll love the room and power. 6'6" is no problem...probably same in a Cardinal. But all that training time at 11gph will get spendy. Great for all 3 of you though.

For high wings I'd be thinking Cardinal (with 180hp and CS prop) or older 182. You're gonna gets lots of low wing recommendations but I would give them serious thought as well.

You might also want to pause for about 6 months to 1yr. If there is a prolonged recession and all the demand for new pilots remains squashed, plane prices should trend down. And since you really don't save that much training in your own plane you could knock out your PPLs in rentals and try both high and low wings.

$65-$85K: That seems like a good possibility for sure, though I am pretty sure I can keep the cost well under that. But you make a good point about the ADSB Out, seems so many people don't fly their planes very often and are now selling cause they cant fly and the ADSB seems like it might be a good reason for that. I am figuring 2K for the ADSB at LEAST and probably another 1K for the install - though I my head I add another 4-5K for the ADSB when I look at aircraft if it still needs it. Problem is I will probably have to have that installed before I have the plane brought to where I live. Then again, I should probably make them delivering it part of the purchase agreement - after a mechanic looks it over of course.
182: I am hearing alot of love for the 182 here, I will certainly give this one a go. Even with the increased cost upfront in purchase price (haven't checked with the insurance yet though) I would probably recoup that when I go to sell it, assuming I do. There are NOT alot of 182s on the market from what I have seen thus far.
Cardinal: I have not looked at the Cardinal at all to this point, I will look at that as i move ahead too.
Recession: As far as the pause goes, that really all depends on my flight training, I am not necessarily chomping at the bit on getting this started, but I AM starting to take a very serious look at the logistics of all this - starting NOW. If my training moves along within the next few months I will definitely wait to buy, but if it doesn't I may push things along myself by buying my own plane to train in. Though I am well aware the down turn in the economy that is more than likely coming this way. I just have to balance that with me getting up and building my hours.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Be careful...where most of us get forehead indents from 172s, y’all are likely to lose teeth.

It's worse than that. I might take it in the teeth farther out on the wing, but closer to the wing roots it'd be in the neck!

Luckily, with probably about 600-700 hours in Cessnas, I've never even come close to whacking myself against the trailing edge of a wing. Call it self-preservation, or maybe it's just that the wing being mostly at or below eye level and obscuring the ground I'm going to walk on as I get closer makes it less likely I'll miss it.

Also keep in mind that your goal isn't really to get to 1500 hours directly because your airplane won't get you all the experience you need - missing twin and turbine. You want to get through IFR and commercial in your plane, then probably get a twin rating so that you can get hired somewhere to build hours. Instructing is another option.

With the lack of twins available for rent, the requirement for multi time to get an airline job has pretty much gone away. It may come back briefly when things start moving again to help pare down the likely glut of applications, though. It may be worthwhile for the OP to consider selling the single and buying a twin at some point - The Piper Apache is a good time-builder twin, with purchase prices pretty low. They're all very old though, so tread carefully.

If you're not too old, the military is the best option for building hours. Roughly...60%?...of 121 pilots are former military. On some airlines, it's closer to 90.

Given that the OP has 24 years in the military already, that means he's likely 42 years old or so, far too late for a military pilot slot.

Also, while those percentages you state may have been true at one point, there haven't been nearly enough pilots going through the military to feed the airlines in the last decade, so civilians are far more common these days.

 

[Brent Perry]

There's another thread on here by another 6 1/2 footer that you might find interesting. And there's not just one of you, but two plus one nearly as tall! So you're going to be sized out of a lot of planes. Forget the 152, I'm 6'4" and I can't fly one of those. It's not even about comfort - it's that my knees are either jammed up under the yoke or jammed into the (full) throttle. It simply wouldn't be safe whatsoever.

The C182 is the way to go if you're set on a high wing, and it's a great first plane to own. There's a ton of them for sale so you should be able to find one that fits your desires, maintain it easily, and then sell it easily when you're done with it. The catch is, they're so dang useful that there's a lot of demand for them and thus your $40K budget is highly unlikely to fetch you a good one.

The other thing you should look into is the Piper Comanche line. The PA24-180 and PA24-250 will be the most affordable to purchase, and the 180 should hit your 10gph number. Cabin is comfortable, mpg is excellent, and you can even do your complex requirements in it... But that also means you'll need to insure a retractable-gear airplane as a student, which can be costly.

One of those two is likely going to be the way to go for you. You'll have to weigh the budget against the importance of the high wing and low fuel burn. You won't get the all.

What is your inseam? Mine is 36in and I fit into a 152, I just don't like the shoulder to shoulder-ness that is included in it. No thanks.
182 - I will look again to see how many of these are available, I haven't seen alot lately. But I completely expect that price tag to be "up there" for sure. But as you say, they are popular so I should be able to sell it when the time comes. But that price tag on gas isn't going to be fun. Can those run on MOGAS? I haven't noticed any STC talk about the 182 thus far. Might be due the larger fuel tanks of the 182 and trucking in the MOGAS to the airport probably isn't worth it.
Comanche: I have not really looked at these too much, though it think they might be a possibility for me, I think the fuel burn and Mx cost are about the same as a 182 with retracts. My friends at work are definitely trying to get me to stick with Cessna or Piper for the ease of getting them worked on and getting parts.

I feel like both the 180 and and 182 can both be good "career" airplanes, not necessarily one I need to start out on. One school of thought is to buy what I want now so I don't have to later. The other is get a good trainer now, figure out what it is that I want/like and then get THAT plane.

 

[Brent Perry]

I agree, 40k doesn't buy much of an airplane these days.

Cessna, a 152, maybe an older 172
Piper, a Cherokee 140
Mooney, a VFR M20C

As noted above, you're likely to spend more money on the first annual. What you'll get is really a 2 seat airplane, due to space or useful load restrictions.

The only "common" airplane I can see that fits your criteria would be a 1940-50s V tail Bonanza, but maintenance costs are really high because the aircraft are so old. Is parts availability a problem?

Also keep in mind that your goal isn't really to get to 1500 hours directly because your airplane won't get you all the experience you need - missing twin and turbine. You want to get through IFR and commercial in your plane, then probably get a twin rating so that you can get hired somewhere to build hours. Instructing is another option.

If you're not too old, the military is the best option for building hours. Roughly...60%?...of 121 pilots are former military. On some airlines, it's closer to 90.

Oh I was born to fly the Bonanza! I have ridden in them several times and each time I LOVE it. Nice planes, fast, I feel like we just stole a Lamo or something of the like. And you are correct, I can make a Bonanza work for sure, but this is a plane I DID check on insurance - THERE IS SOME BAD NEWS lol. They told me to come back when I had a few hundred hours and a Instrument rating if I wanted more "affordable" rates. lol Love those planes, and those planes LOVE AVGAS. The ones I rode in drank about 14GPH if memory serves. But that goes against the internet numbers, maybe those pilots just loved to hot-dog in them.
As far as the military pilot thing goes - I have been in the Air Force for 24yrs now, and am currently a Navigator, I am not letting the military train me as a pilot at this point. I am 43 now.

 

[Brent Perry]

It's worse than that. I might take it in the teeth farther out on the wing, but closer to the wing roots it'd be in the neck!

Luckily, with probably about 600-700 hours in Cessnas, I've never even come close to whacking myself against the trailing edge of a wing. Call it self-preservation, or maybe it's just that the wing being mostly at or below eye level and obscuring the ground I'm going to walk on as I get closer makes it less likely I'll miss it.



With the lack of twins available for rent, the requirement for multi time to get an airline job has pretty much gone away. It may come back briefly when things start moving again to help pare down the likely glut of applications, though. It may be worthwhile for the OP to consider selling the single and buying a twin at some point - The Piper Apache is a good time-builder twin, with purchase prices pretty low. They're all very old though, so tread carefully.



Given that the OP has 24 years in the military already, that means he's likely 42 years old or so, far too late for a military pilot slot.

Also, while those percentages you state may have been true at one point, there haven't been nearly enough pilots going through the military to feed the airlines in the last decade, so civilians are far more common these days.

Yeah, planes "biting" me doesn't concern me. I have run into exhaust nozzles of the B-1b, at my head level. I have fallen off the tail of a C-130 and cracked my nose off the top center console of a C-130 when we were descending into Kuwait city years ago though moderate turbs - gave me two black eyes lol. So yeah, I am sure these GA planes will bite me at some point.
Interesting to hear the multi-time requirement is going down. I have a few ideas for how I can get some time in these, and they do not include me buying one. I just think that is WAY too much of a risk for me and my family to take on as if something goes array, the repair costs could ruin me. I will of course have to pony up the $$ to get a checkout in them. But I have drooled over a few Apaches at the nearby airport, pretty nice planes.
As far as your last statement on the pilot shortage, yes, the military cannot keep pilots in at all due to the demand on the civilian side. Even our WORST pilots are getting good jobs with the majors and there are simply not enough military pilots to feed the demand on the civilian side. Hence why I am looking to cross over to be a civilian pilot. You are going to see more and more civilian pilots coming into the airlines over the coming years. And with the expense of training, mx and gas, I do not see this probably going away anytime soon - even with the down turn in air travel for the time being. It will pick back up, but to what volume, time will tell. But I still think there are going to be more jobs than pilots when this COVID thing subsides.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What is your inseam? Mine is 36in and I fit into a 152, I just don't like the shoulder to shoulder-ness that is included in it. No thanks.

34 these days. Used to be a 36 but I guess I must be shrinking or sagging or something. I've been in a 152 but I don't think there's any way I could *safely* fly one.

182 - I will look again to see how many of these are available, I haven't seen alot lately. But I completely expect that price tag to be "up there" for sure. But as you say, they are popular so I should be able to sell it when the time comes. But that price tag on gas isn't going to be fun. Can those run on MOGAS? I haven't noticed any STC talk about the 182 thus far. Might be due the larger fuel tanks of the 182 and trucking in the MOGAS to the airport probably isn't worth it.

I can't say for sure offhand, but I'm pretty sure that you can run mogas in the older 182s that have the O-470 engine as opposed to the newer ones (1997 and newer) that use an IO-540. In fact, I'm pretty sure a friend of mine with one of those older 182s runs mogas in his.

Another option you should check for nearby is the Swift 94UL. While it's an aviation-specific fuel it is cheaper than 100LL. And with a 182 with long-range tanks, if you can fly to a nearby airport that has Mogas or 94UL fairly cheap, it might be worth the flight to fuel up now and then.

Comanche: I have not really looked at these too much, though it think they might be a possibility for me, I think the fuel burn and Mx cost are about the same as a 182 with retracts. My friends at work are definitely trying to get me to stick with Cessna or Piper for the ease of getting them worked on and getting parts.

Fuel burn on a Comanche 250 will be the same or slightly higher than the 182 per hour, but slightly less per mile.

Fuel burn on a Comanche 180 will be significantly less than the C182, in the 10 gph range instead of 13.

All of the Comanches - there's also a fuel-injected 260 and 400, as well as a twin - share the same cabin, which is of a nice comfortable size. @Kristin has a twin and is a well respected member of the Comanche community and can probably tell you more. If @EdFred is still around, he's had a Comanche 250 for the last decade or so.

I feel like both the 180 and and 182 can both be good "career" airplanes, not necessarily one I need to start out on. One school of thought is to buy what I want now so I don't have to later. The other is get a good trainer now, figure out what it is that I want/like and then get THAT plane.

One of the reasons I recommend the 182 as a first airplane is that it's faster than the trainer class, and everyone wants to go faster - But it's also not so fast that you'll get yourself into trouble. If you decide to get a Bonanza or something even faster, it won't be such a big step up if you've got plenty of time in the 182.

In your case, since you're going to use it for training - The 182 will work for that, but it might take you slightly longer to get to solo and to your Private, and insurance will cost a little more. You just need to balance that against the costs inherent to buying and selling airplanes to decide whether it's worthwhile to you to take the extra step. Figure it takes $5K or so to buy and sell an airplane, plus whatever sales tax is due for whatever state you're in. Pre-buy inspection and any associated repairs you may want to make, escrow, title search, etc etc...

 

[Sinistar]

A few more misc comments on the 182. I am pretty sure all of them came with adjustable pilot seats (by that I mean up/down). But ours (1972 model) does not have a adjustable passenger seat. I am tall enough that it doesn't matter. But it complicates things for my wife and daughter who need it raised up significantly. On this same topic, maybe you should verify that it can go low enough. The Cessna seat is like a kitchen chair - very upright. The low wing planes tend to have a bit more reclined seat (as you found in the Bo!)

Cessna came out with a floor belt safety mechanism for the pilot seat. It gets rid of the crappy pin you have to reach and find to release and move the seat back. Much safer and much easier. I believe even up to now Cessna will provide the kit free and it takes the AP about 1.5hrs to install.

So basically, at your heights above and beyond all the aircraft purchase stuff (get a buyers guide) make sure the seat adjustments, etc are right for you.

You will find the 182 has a ton of leg room. Even your son or wife or you should have ample leg room in back once they slide ahead a bit to get feet to reach. The effect is really obvious when kids or short people ride up front. Heck our 70lb Goldie often lays on the floor. Definitely not roomy like a 6xclub seater but there is room.

And buy hats. At those heights, you guys are gonna slice up foreheads on the trailing edge of the ailerons/flaps. I remember when a guy at 6'4" came on board our submarine for duty. That first evening he had 2 gashes bandaged up from hitting pipe hangars and valves. Here is where the low wing guys have it made - they pump gas without a ladder and never hit their heads on a wing.

Regarding MOGAS - Yes I think many/most of the older O-470 Continental 6 cyl engine model 182's have the MOGAS STC. However you enter into fun territory as to whether you will want to. These older 182's have replaceable fuel bladders. Our sellers AP took me aside and told me not to use MOGAS - during the pre-buy. I asked our AP and he also advised against it. However, many people do it and save a lot of money. Just be sure to get ethanol free premium fuel.

Regarding ADSB Out Compliance: If you are NOT basing your plane under a Bravo mode C veil or any special flight rules areas that require ADSB out you do not need to equip. However, without it you are not going to be able to fly into any smaller airports under those veils. Example, lets say you would base 28 miles from Atlanta Hartsfield airport. Need ADSB out or a special permission just to take off.

Regarding ADSB Out Prices: You can go one of 3 ways. You can get the tail or wing beacon for around $1700 and should be less than 1hr by the mechanic. Then there are behind the panel ADSB out units that tap into your existing transponder. Same price as the beacon but usually more labor or the old xpdr may not work with it. Last is a dedicated ADSB out transponder. Think bout $7K..$8.5K installed. They are now bundling ADSB Out transponders with full GPS Navigators and that will probably exceed $12K installed. So really, just one cheap option. They rest mean digging in the panel. But good to know before you buy.

Regarding Purchase Positioning: Having a plane delivered with any add-ons is a more complicated sale. Lets say your find a plane you like and it doesn't have ADSB out and you're under a Bravo's veil. You could ask them to install it and then sell it to you. As a owner I wouldn't take that deal. If there are any complications and you walk away I would have to eat it. You could give me a big non-refundable deposit to get it done. But what if the seller is crooked. No matter what budget another $1.5K minimum to have your mechanic go and see the plane (means airline tickets). You may also need a ferry pilot (you can ride with and log hours) to get it home. If it doesn't have adsb out and you need it you can get special 1 time permissions to move it.

Outside storage: Its so nice to have at least covered.

It would help if you add what area you live in (be general if needed). What airports you are considering as home base. How many hours have you spent in in GA planes. Do you know any good aviation mechanics - perhaps from the service?

 

[Brent Perry]

34 these days. Used to be a 36 but I guess I must be shrinking or sagging or something. I've been in a 152 but I don't think there's any way I could *safely* fly one.



I can't say for sure offhand, but I'm pretty sure that you can run mogas in the older 182s that have the O-470 engine as opposed to the newer ones (1997 and newer) that use an IO-540. In fact, I'm pretty sure a friend of mine with one of those older 182s runs mogas in his.

Another option you should check for nearby is the Swift 94UL. While it's an aviation-specific fuel it is cheaper than 100LL. And with a 182 with long-range tanks, if you can fly to a nearby airport that has Mogas or 94UL fairly cheap, it might be worth the flight to fuel up now and then.



Fuel burn on a Comanche 250 will be the same or slightly higher than the 182 per hour, but slightly less per mile.

Fuel burn on a Comanche 180 will be significantly less than the C182, in the 10 gph range instead of 13.

All of the Comanches - there's also a fuel-injected 260 and 400, as well as a twin - share the same cabin, which is of a nice comfortable size. @Kristin has a twin and is a well respected member of the Comanche community and can probably tell you more. If @EdFred is still around, he's had a Comanche 250 for the last decade or so.



One of the reasons I recommend the 182 as a first airplane is that it's faster than the trainer class, and everyone wants to go faster - But it's also not so fast that you'll get yourself into trouble. If you decide to get a Bonanza or something even faster, it won't be such a big step up if you've got plenty of time in the 182.

In your case, since you're going to use it for training - The 182 will work for that, but it might take you slightly longer to get to solo and to your Private, and insurance will cost a little more. You just need to balance that against the costs inherent to buying and selling airplanes to decide whether it's worthwhile to you to take the extra step. Figure it takes $5K or so to buy and sell an airplane, plus whatever sales tax is due for whatever state you're in. Pre-buy inspection and any associated repairs you may want to make, escrow, title search, etc etc...

Wow, I have not heard of this Swift 94UL, I will check to local airports and see if they have it. Also understanding that not all aircraft will accept it, but good to know if anyone around here has it when it is $1 cheaper than 100LL. I know it doesn't come up on ForeFlight for any of the fields near here. I am certainly not opposed to flying to get the gas, I am building time right

Thanks for the info on the Comanche vs 182, I will look into that as well.

And the points you make on the 182 being a first aircraft are those I hadn't thought of.

Thanks again!

 

[schmookeeg]

I feel like the same answers in the "starter plane for a tall person" apply here.

No idea why minimum price for a trainer/light traveler nowadays should be 85K.

 

[bflynn]

If you're still in, is there a flying club at your base? When I was in the Navy, they were everywhere.

 

[Brent Perry]

A few more misc comments on the 182. I am pretty sure all of them came with adjustable pilot seats (by that I mean up/down). But ours (1972 model) does not have a adjustable passenger seat. I am tall enough that it doesn't matter. But it complicates things for my wife and daughter who need it raised up significantly. On this same topic, maybe you should verify that it can go low enough. The Cessna seat is like a kitchen chair - very upright. The low wing planes tend to have a bit more reclined seat (as you found in the Bo!)

Good info on the 182, I will keep an eye out on this one.

Cessna came out with a floor belt safety mechanism for the pilot seat. It gets rid of the crappy pin you have to reach and find to release and move the seat back. Much safer and much easier. I believe even up to now Cessna will provide the kit free and it takes the AP about 1.5hrs to install.

I think little things like seat adjusters is something alot of folks ignore in their "toys" and don't do much with. I know this is the case with me. Being tall, I just expect to be uncomfortable. I drive a Smart car and Mini Cooper, folks wonder how I get in and out of them. It is fine for me and I laugh all the way to the gas pump as I drive an hour to work everyday.

So basically, at your heights above and beyond all the aircraft purchase stuff (get a buyers guide) make sure the seat adjustments, etc are right for you.

Do you have a recommendation for a buyers guide?

You will find the 182 has a ton of leg room. Even your son or wife or you should have ample leg room in back once they slide ahead a bit to get feet to reach. The effect is really obvious when kids or short people ride up front. Heck our 70lb Goldie often lays on the floor. Definitely not roomy like a 6xclub seater but there is room.

And buy hats. At those heights, you guys are gonna slice up foreheads on the trailing edge of the ailerons/flaps. I remember when a guy at 6'4" came on board our submarine for duty. That first evening he had 2 gashes bandaged up from hitting pipe hangars and valves. Here is where the low wing guys have it made - they pump gas without a ladder and never hit their heads on a wing.

Lol Something to consider I guess, but I don't wear hats typically.

Regarding MOGAS - Yes I think many/most of the older O-470 Continental 6 cyl engine model 182's have the MOGAS STC. However you enter into fun territory as to whether you will want to. These older 182's have replaceable fuel bladders. Our sellers AP took me aside and told me not to use MOGAS - during the pre-buy. I asked our AP and he also advised against it. However, many people do it and save a lot of money. Just be sure to get ethanol free premium fuel.

I have read the issue with the fuel bladders and MOGAS, no bueno. Guess I will have to look into this one some more. I certainly do not want to save money to spend money.

Regarding ADSB Out Compliance: If you are NOT basing your plane under a Bravo mode C veil or any special flight rules areas that require ADSB out you do not need to equip. However, without it you are not going to be able to fly into any smaller airports under those veils. Example, lets say you would base 28 miles from Atlanta Hartsfield airport. Need ADSB out or a special permission just to take off.

"Starting Jan. 1, 2020 ADS-B will be required when operating over all 48 continuous states, within airspace at or above FL 100 (excluding airspace from 2,500 ft AGL). At or below FL100 ADS-B will be required; 1) While operating within class B or C airspace. 2) While operating within 12NM of the coast line in the Gulf of Mexico, at or above 3,000 ft MSL.
ADS-B is now required when operating over all 48 continuous states, within airspace at or above FL 100 (excluding airspace from 2,500 ft. AGL). At or below FL100 ADS-B will be required:
1.While operating within class B or C airspace.
2.While operating within 12NM of the coastline in the Gulf of Mexico, at or above 3,000 ft. MSL."

I live right next to KCEW and will fly down along the coast on a very regular basis. This airspace here is a complete mine field. If I took off and flew north away from the coast I could probably get away without having ADSB Out, but what fun is that? But good to know I don't HAVE to have it, I thought I did.

Regarding ADSB Out Prices: You can go one of 3 ways. You can get the tail or wing beacon for around $1700 and should be less than 1hr by the mechanic. Then there are behind the panel ADSB out units that tap into your existing transponder. Same price as the beacon but usually more labor or the old xpdr may not work with it. Last is a dedicated ADSB out transponder. Think bout $7K..$8.5K installed. They are now bundling ADSB Out transponders with full GPS Navigators and that will probably exceed $12K installed. So really, just one cheap option. They rest mean digging in the panel. But good to know before you buy.

I was expecting to go the cheap $1700 route, I didn't know it only takes a mechanic an hour to install though, good to know! Yeah, and the 12K avionics, that is a HARD no

Regarding Purchase Positioning: Having a plane delivered with any add-ons is a more complicated sale. Lets say your find a plane you like and it doesn't have ADSB out and you're under a Bravo's veil. You could ask them to install it and then sell it to you. As a owner I wouldn't take that deal. If there are any complications and you walk away I would have to eat it. You could give me a big non-refundable deposit to get it done. But what if the seller is crooked. No matter what budget another $1.5K minimum to have your mechanic go and see the plane (means airline tickets). You may also need a ferry pilot (you can ride with and log hours) to get it home. If it doesn't have adsb out and you need it you can get special 1 time permissions to move it.

I just figured the ferry permit would be more of a PITA, but you make a very good point here for sure. I was thinking I would contact the local FBO for a mechanic, hoping he isn't the regular mechanic for the aircraft and use him. Probably ask around the forums for a recommendation on a A&P.

Outside storage: Its so nice to have at least covered.

Agreed, but I don't see that in the budget around here. Hanger fees are $$$ here, maybe I could find someone with a larger one and leach some space off them.

It would help if you add what area you live in (be general if needed). What airports you are considering as home base. How many hours have you spent in in GA planes. Do you know any good aviation mechanics - perhaps from the service?

I live right next to KCEW, but they are being jerks about keeping the plane there ($150 tiedown fees and that is IF I use their mechanic for my annuals ($2Kish) plus their AVGAS is the most expensive in the area here. I will probably tie the aircraft down at K2R4 (Peter Prince Airport, FL), it is $50 and their gas prices are good. Though their MOGAS pump has been out of service for a while. Plenty of airports to the north of me with reasonable gas prices.

Thanks again for all the help guys!

 

[Brent Perry]

I feel like the same answers in the "starter plane for a tall person" apply here.

No idea why minimum price for a trainer/light traveler nowadays should be 85K.

Is this a previous thread? I didnt see it. Disregard, I found it - Thanks!

 

[MountainDude]

182
Given your budget, you will be limited to the older models with lots of engine time.
I would also consider early 210s. Amazing performance and low prices.

 

[simtech]

2 huge doors on a Cardinal are hard to beat....And I own a bonanza. 14gph is about right but hey you're getting there faster so its a wash mostly. And yeah insurance on one.....I have an instrument rating with 450 hours and my insurance is just over $2k for it...first year.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Cessna came out with a floor belt safety mechanism for the pilot seat. It gets rid of the crappy pin you have to reach and find to release and move the seat back. Much safer and much easier. I believe even up to now Cessna will provide the kit free and it takes the AP about 1.5hrs to install.

Really? We got the floor belt kit installed, but the lawyer lock stayed.

And buy hats. At those heights, you guys are gonna slice up foreheads on the trailing edge of the ailerons/flaps.

Again, I'm 6'4" and have never gotten a Cessna trailing edge injury - They're at neck level near the root and eye level near the tips!

These older 182's have replaceable fuel bladders. Our sellers AP took me aside and told me not to use MOGAS - during the pre-buy. I asked our AP and he also advised against it. However, many people do it and save a lot of money. Just be sure to get ethanol free premium fuel.

Pretty sure this is an old wives' tale. Gasoline with ethanol might eat them up, but I don't know why gasoline without ethanol would be any different than 100LL. You want to keep them full (wet!) so they don't crack, in theory (I think some newer ones may use more modern compounds to avoid that sort of issue) but I haven't ever heard of mogas causing a problem with bladders as long as there's no ethanol. And there shouldn't be any ethanol in any that you buy at an airport.

Wow, I have not heard of this Swift 94UL, I will check to local airports and see if they have it. Also understanding that not all aircraft will accept it, but good to know if anyone around here has it when it is $1 cheaper than 100LL. I know it doesn't come up on ForeFlight for any of the fields near here.

Just look here: US MAP Down your way it looks like Sebring and DeLand have it.

It looks like all 182s are eligible to get the STC to use it for $100, even the fuel-injected ones: https://www.swiftfuelsavgas.com/stc/

I drive a Smart car and Mini Cooper, folks wonder how I get in and out of them. It is fine for me and I laugh all the way to the gas pump as I drive an hour to work everyday.

Sounds like you need an electric car.

I just bought one a couple of months ago. I *had* an hour commute, now I work from home mostly. Oh well.

Agreed, but I don't see that in the budget around here. Hanger fees are $$$ here, maybe I could find someone with a larger one and leach some space off them.

How long are you thinking you'll keep this plane? And if you think hangars are expensive, go price out a paint job and an interior sometime. You'll likely be in the $30K range to do both on a 182, and you'll likely need both in 5-10 years leaving a plane outside in Florida so figure somewhere between $250-$500 per month of your hangar fees is justified right there. Insurance will be cheaper if you're hangared as well.

 

[bflynn]

Ethanol will dissolve certain rubber components. A little research, it's a huge concern in the marine community and can affect things like lawnmowers and other yard equipment. Most airplanes don't use mogas and those who do should be testing for ethanol.

 

[Larry Vrooman]

Given all three of you are big folks it's limits the options a bit.

I'll second the 182. It's never a bad choice. Both the 230 hp Continental O-470 and the 235 hp Lycoming O-540 are as bullet proof as aircraft engines get. Fuel burn is higher than for a Cessna 172, but if you are just building time, and doing airwork, you can throttle them back to 50-55% power and get fuel burns only a gallon or so higher than a 172. The same applies to pretty much any model where the airframes are the same or similar but have more or less horsepower (four seat Cessnas, four seat PA-28s, PA-24s etc) - fly them at similar airspeeds with similar loads and you'll get similar fuel burn.

In that regard the PA-28-180 and PA-28-235 (under whatever name they are called in various eras) are also worth considering.

They offer good performance on 180 hp and are great load haulers with 235 hp. Both the O-360 and O-540 are reliable and well supported, and the airframe itself isn't terribly expensive to maintain. (There is however a pending wing spar AD that will probably affect PA-28s with intensive usage, probably indicated by number of 100 hour inspections. As of now it requires the wings to be removed to inspect the spar, but there is the potential for a new ECI inspection procedure developed by Piper Aircraft utilizing a bolt-hole probe inspection technique to avoid the need for wing removal.

Either way, look for a PA-28 with no history as a trainer and full logs so that you can document no, or very few 100 hour inspections were required.

Also remember that almost no one ever hit their head on the trailing edge of the wing on a PA-28.

 

[oppscheckgood6]

Hello everyone,
I wanted to introduce myself here. A long time lurker and first time poster today.
I’ve been in OP’s dilemma in 90’s. And I went through the whole process.
Currently I fly the bus for a major.

Being 5’6 tall, I ended up buying a Beech sport right after my private. It had 2 doors, plenty of headroom, old radios, 150 hp, and great paint job.
I was told to buy a comfortable and slow aircraft due to time building that I needed for Commercial single engine. I got my instrument in the sport. It was a great instrument trainer. After the instrument rating I flew a ton of cross country to build time. My wife and I took many mini vacations in that sport. When I had over 260 total time, I sold the aircraft and finished my cpl se in a cutlass rg (complex need for cpl).
After that I went to a part 141 flight school and finished Cfi, cfii, mei and tail dragger endorsement for Citabria. The flight school hired me at the end. After having over 1600 total time with 250 multi, got hired by a regional airline. From there furlough, divorce, and other sacrifices happened. Finally got in a major and fly an equipment that will do everything except make your coffee.

IMHO and based on my experiences, I believe Brent need something comfortable and slow. If the plan is to fly for an airline, time building must be the priority. In order to get hired in any 121 operation you must be ATP or have at least enough hours to qualify for the ATP test. Now regional airlines will pay for ATP if you got flight hours.
My 2 cents

 

[Sinistar]

Re: Buyers Guide - I think this "THE" one everyone recommends and uses, hopefully someone posts a better one if I have it wrong.
https://cessna.org/product/cessna-182-skylane-buyers-guide-updated-edition/

Re: MOGAS and Bladders - @flyingcheesehead is right to call me out here! I am going by two data points (A&P's). It is possible that todays ethanol free premium is great so please do more research here before you base it on just two opinions. However, you are right about bladders. They are not cheap. I am guessing $2000 a side or more. We always try to keep ours full. You are also now savvy to the MOGAS availability. Up here I have yet to see a MOGAS pump at any field. Hopefully more prevalent down south. In a typical hour of training I was using between 9-11gal so you would want to be able to haul maybe (2) 6gal cans before or after each flight. The other gotcha is that certain hangar rentals only allow so much gas stored in the hangar. We are allowed just (1) 5 or 6 gallon can and that is it. They look every month while inspecting the fire extinguishers.

Re: Cheap ADSB Out. You need to thank uAvionix for their great low cost solution. It piggy backs off the existing transponder signal. They have a wing tip mounted and tail mounted version. You are in a sense just replacing the old light with a new one. Thus the very low installation time! Most of the common planes are included (so not just 182's or Cessnas). One thing to keep in mind is that the tail beacon replaces the small white tail marker light, not the larger red light which would be much more handy as that light is often more expensive to replace anyway. Another thing to keep in mind is that the success rate of the tail beacon is very high but there can be the rare case where it doesn't work with the existing transponder. I am sure you could return it but it then moves you into the more expensive solutions.
https://uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/

Re: Moving the Plane For The Sale - you mentioned a "Ferry Permit". You might be confusing that with what a ferry pilot does. A "Ferry Permit" is a document that is signed by the FSDO that allows a plane to be moved when it is out of annual. A mechanic needs to obtain this from the FSDO. A ferry pilot can move any plane. So if you buy a plane that is in annual (which I would highly recommend) the ferry pilot will just be flying it home for you. This often happens when the plane is really far away and you can't do it. Or maybe you can't fly that type yet, etc.

 

[bflynn]

For what you pay a ferry pilot, it seems it would make sense to find a cfi at the plane and get 10-20 hours, then fly it home yourself.

 

[Sinistar]

For what you pay a ferry pilot, it seems it would make sense to find a cfi at the plane and get 10-20 hours, then fly it home yourself.

My worry about the ferrying is if they get stuck due to wx. You're paying them hotel and food and whatever minimum pay each day just to sit. Often they might need a commercial flight one way to do other work and another to go back and get it when wx is better (mainly thinking winter, low level crud and icing potential).

But hell yes, make sure the ferry pilot is a CFI and learn the whole way.

 

[Brent Perry]

2 huge doors on a Cardinal are hard to beat....And I own a bonanza. 14gph is about right but hey you're getting there faster so its a wash mostly. And yeah insurance on one.....I have an instrument rating with 450 hours and my insurance is just over $2k for it...first year.

Wow, Good to know! Thanks

 

[Brent Perry]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/871...21618241304684/?sale_post_id=1921618241304684

Anyone care to guess why these Comanches are so cheap? I imagine they are a PITA to insure. Got my lady at Gallagher looking at it tomorrow.

 

[JCranford]

182
Given your budget, you will be limited to the older models with lots of engine time.
I would also consider early 210s. Amazing performance and low prices.

Hahahahahaha, thats fuuuuny!

 

[Larry Vrooman]

182
Given your budget, you will be limited to the older models with lots of engine time.
I would also consider early 210s. Amazing performance and low prices.

Hahahahahaha, thats fuuuuny!

Yes and no...

MountainDude isn't wrong in that older 210s can be had for fairly little money relative to the performance. You'll find 210A B and Cs from 1960-63 in the $55K to $65K range with low to mid time SMOH engines. If you find a 182 in that same price range it'll either be a late 50s model, or it'll have a high time engine. The first Cessna 210 was basically a Cessna 182B with a retractable landing gear, swept tail, and a new wing. None the less, older 182s on average sell for more than older 210s.

Where I agree with you why that's funny is in the "why" older 182s sell for more than older 210s. Increased maintenance costs and higher insurance costs make the Cessna 210 more expensive to own than a similar age Cessna 182 and for folks shopping in that price range that difference in total cost of ownership matters.

 

[Sinistar]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/871...21618241304684/?sale_post_id=1921618241304684

Anyone care to guess why these Comanches are so cheap? I imagine they are a PITA to insure. Got my lady at Gallagher looking at it tomorrow.

You may not get many responses as its on Facebook + its a group that needs to be joined. Is there any way you can share a specific example since you can get past the first page of the group and see posts.

 

[Larry Vrooman]

You may not get many responses as its on Facebook + its a group that needs to be joined. Is there any way you can share a specific example since you can get past the first page of the group and see posts.

Here's what it says:

1958 Comanche 180
4200TT 900SMOH 100TT prop
0-360A1A, comps 75+, clean screens, new B Hartzell prop installed in 2010.
Flys daily so times change quick.
Will consider selling minus FWF or trade for something sporty.
$30,000 OBO

----

The cockpit / panel picture shows old navs and coms, and an old style gyro horizon.

It was landed gear up in 1962, and got new belly and wng skins. It's no longer a factor for the engine and prop.

The paint scheme is vintage, and it may be original paint with the expected wear and tear. Good deal though, if you can afford the maintenance. However, the B prop hub is a real plus in terms of the prop AD and repetitive eddy current inspections and will reduce the maintenance costs.

 

[Sinistar]

Bump - so the Piper folk can give you more help

 

[Brent Perry]

However, the B prop hub is a real plus in terms of the prop AD and repetitive eddy current inspections and will reduce the maintenance costs.

View attachment 85229 View attachment 85230

And this isnt the Comanche I was really looking too hard at.
So many used planes out there for sale, it is dizzying.

I have also seen vintage Bonanzas for sale for $25K, this one is from Barnstormers. 600hrs SMO

 

[Brent Perry]

Here is another Comanche 180 that is somewhat closer to me:
$34K
Geat solid time builder. Burning 8.5 gallons per hour. Fresh annual 12/2019. Io360 with 1060 smoh. Prop is basically brand new 60 smoh. Ifr capable but not certified.