What Plane Should I Buy? Twin-Engine Edition

Sluggo63

Sluggo63

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Oct 9, 2013
Messages
1,927
Display Name
Display name:
Sluggo63
I know, I know... Twin Bonanza.

Let me start by saying that I probably don't need a twin. Feel free to talk me out of it.

I'd like to keep the purchase price below $200,000, around $175,000 would be preferable.

The 75% mission would be 210 lb me, 120 lb wife, a 70 lb dog and luggage from the Phoenix area to Austin, TX (~800 NM).

I could get to 90% with the addition of these two trips:
The 400 lbs of people above and luggage from PHX-DEN (~550 NM over/around the Rockies)
Four adults (780 lbs-ish) and luggage to Vegas (~300 NM)

For responsible me and the 75% solution, I'm thinking Turbo Saratoga. We owned a PA-32-300 before and really liked the roomy cabin.

For the devil-may-care/you can't take it with you 90% approach my wish list would be a Seneca II/III or C-310Q/R. FIKI would be nice and the wife really (really) wants club seating.

I was really leaning towards the Seneca II because I thought that would fit all that I wanted to do until I did a little more research and found that the IIs have a Max Zero Fuel Weight of 4,000 lbs. With EWs around hovering 3,300 lbs, I wouldn't be able to do the 4-adult trips no matter how much fuel I leave off. I've read that the Seneca IIIs have an increased MZFW, but I couldn't find what that number is or what the EWs would be. I also couldn't find if the C-310s had any such ZFW limit.

So, I throw my question to all you much-more-knowledgeable folks to steer me in the right direction.
 
NOT a twin bonanza unless you like antiques and being outrun by $40k mooney singles while torching 28gph

That budget would swing a Baron 58. I think that's the real "get a bonanza" answer here. :D

Other than the club seating, not many twins won't do that mission, frankly, unless they're little trainer twins.
 
How about a Twin Bonanza? ;)

Since you're doing longer trips, I might lean towards the 310 due to the speed vs cost. I've never been in the back of one though to know how roomy it is. The Aztec would be great for ice and hauling, but might feel a little slow for a routine 800nm trip vs a 310.

There are several Aztec and 310 drivers here on the board.
 
Or get a Duke. Fast, beautiful, and oooooooh so thirsty (making "torching 28 gph" look like a starvation diet.)
 
If the wife wants the club seating, I think a Seneca or Baron 58 are the choices in your price range. Otherwise I think a Q model 310 would be a great option.
 
I may be in PHX for biz later this month if you want to try a 55 on for size. Maybe you can sell mama on the rear seating and save yourself 50-60 grand :D
 
310Q owner here. The 310 will do that trip easily and have a 200nm reserve. We fly it with 4 seats. Taking the back 2 seats out leaves a ton of room for cargo. Usually it’s just my wife and I. We’ve taken the 2 dogs before and it’s easy to get them in through the baggage door. Mine is 50lbs, not 70lb like yours. You can do a lot with a 1700lb useful load.

I flew my “plus size” bro and his 6’2 kids last week. None of us are small and we played as football linemen. My bro is a big boy at 305 and was very comfortable in the back seat. It has a lot of room back there. My wife sometimes sits in the back because it can be more comfortable.

We love our 310 and you can get them well below your budget. I’ve put new avionics in mine and have had an extensive annual done. I’d like to put a new right engine, VG’s, paint, interior, and I’ll barely be under $200k with a damn near brand new plane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Twin Bonanza owner here - get a Twin Bonanza :) $200k will buy a really, really nice one. You may not get there super fast, but you'll be comfortable.

In reality, that trip and budget screams 58 Baron. If you really want to get over the Rockies, maybe a Duke if you can find a really good example. Seneca's are fine airplanes, but they fly like trucks (but if you've owned a PA32, you're used to that).

Malibu is also worth looking at, but I don't think your budget will do it.
 
schmookeeg said:
Other than the club seating, not many twins won't do that mission, frankly, unless they're little trainer twins.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought, too, until I saw the MZFW on the Seneca II. That wouldn't allow me to carry 4 "modern" adults. I may have to look closer at the Barons.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Or get a Duke. Fast, beautiful, and oooooooh so thirsty (making "torching 28 gph" look like a starvation diet.)
Click to expand...

EdFred said:
FourFourteen?
Click to expand...

I'm shying away from the cabin class/pressurized aircraft just due to my perception of the higher operating costs. Although my wife keeps resharpening the pencil trying to make a 340 work. It's not in the cards yet, though. I'll keep letting her dream.
 
bradg33 said:
Seneca's are fine airplanes, but they fly like trucks (but if you've owned a PA32, you're used to that).
Click to expand...
I really didn't mind the way the -6 flew. Maybe it's just me, but it felt stable. We really like the roominess of the cabin on it though. That's what keeps me coming back to the Seneca series.
 
schmookeeg said:
I may be in PHX for biz later this month if you want to try a 55 on for size. Maybe you can sell mama on the rear seating and save yourself 50-60 grand :D
Click to expand...
Let me know, I may talk you up on that offer. Lunch will be on me... if the virus hasn't shut everything back down out here by then.
 
Twin Grumman Cougar of course but I might e biased
 
For under $200k, Turbo Cessna 210 with TKS. You know what they say - “a twin piston only takes you to the scene of the crash”.
 
Ohh, man, you are so totally in luck. One of the four remaining airworthy Champion Lancers is for sale!

ChampionLancer.jpg

With this bird, you could (probably) carry both you and your wife for as far as 300 miles in a little under three hours. Might want to stick to the flatlands, though, the single engine service ceiling is 2000 feet.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I also couldn't find if the C-310s had any such ZFW limit.
Click to expand...

There’s no ZFW on 310’s.

Only the R’s are available in FIKI. I love my NA Q but given what you’ve stated, I’d get a Turbo/FIKI R. FIKI not critical, then Turbo Q would work. I have full de-ice and the only difference essentially is I have alcohol windshield vs hot plate. Alcohol seems to work fine. I avoid ice and when encountered, I escape it ASAP.

Whatever you decide, have fun shopping!
 
Sluggo63 said:
That's what I thought, too, until I saw the MZFW on the Seneca II. That wouldn't allow me to carry 4 "modern" adults. I may have to look closer at the Barons.
Click to expand...
Unless I added wrong when I was checking out the POH, trying to make the same decision you are trying to make, the max payload in my friend’s Seneca (which I think is a II), based on empty weight and maximum zero fuel weight, is 1077 lbs. That adds up to 4 adults of fairly stout construction, on average.

I’ll be following this thread in the hope of being talked out of a cabin class twin for my family’s mission. Since my last thread on the topic, commercial air service for our mission has gotten markedly worse, so the temptation is stronger than ever.
 
Shoot... I will say I am an absolutely ZERO expert on buying airplanes. But, I will say I LOVED the C310. Have about 1200 hours in R, and Q models. Loved it.
 
500/600 series Commander would do well, but I don’t know about club seating or FIKI capabilities without some research.
 
Soooo, your wife plans to luxuriate with her girlfriends while sipping mint juleps in the club seating in back while you're sweating the close-to-minimums approach all by yourself in the left seat up front?
Just askin' :D

As you certainly already know, if club seating and avoiding a pressurized cabin class airplane are mandatory conditions, you're pretty well limited to the Seneca and Baron 58. Neither are particularly attractive twin piston airplane choices as an owner or pilot quite frankly.

The twin engine airplanes that seem to have the most beloved followings from experienced twin piston owners on this forum seem to me the ones most often dismissed or ignored by those that have never owned a piston twin. And I don't recall anyone raving about owning and flying a Seneca or B-58, despite the club seating, on this forum.
 
Seneca numbers that I recall (not necessarily the final word):
Seneca II with VG's gets max ZFW of 4168. The III and IV have max ZFW of 4470, whether VGs or not.
You really need to specify your budget as operating costs. The purchase price becomes (nearly) irrelevant the day the bill of sale is s9gned over to you.
Your $175-$200K range gets you everything from a Twin Comanche to Dukes and Aerostars, and all the 300- and 400- series Cessnas. Twin Comanche (nice little planes, but limited load and utility) might cost $200-250/hr and a Duke will be close to $600/hr. How much do you want to play?
The PHX-DEN trip skews the criteria towards big guns, but since that is a once-in-awhile event, accepting limitations (fair weather, round-about routing to avoid really high mountains) would, to me, make it reasonable to consider N/A Barons or the Seneca. Anywhere near the mountains, playing the FIKI game also requires turbocharging and flight level capability, pressurized or not, IMHO.
 
FormerHangie said:
Ohh, man, you are so totally in luck. One of the four remaining airworthy Champion Lancers is for sale!

View attachment 87725

With this bird, you could (probably) carry both you and your wife for as far as 300 miles in a little under three hours. Might want to stick to the flatlands, though, the single engine service ceiling is 2000 feet.
Click to expand...

However, the engine out service ceiling is higher than all S.E. engine out service ceilings.
 
For club seating, deice, comfort, and good flying characteristics: Baby Navajo (PA-31-310)
For 75% and sanity: Twin Comanche
 
Mandates from wives cannot be ignored. Club seating is what she wants.

For your price range, what about a Saratoga? Not a twin, but hits all of your requirements.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
Seneca numbers that I recall (not necessarily the final word):
Seneca II with VG's gets max ZFW of 4168. The III and IV have max ZFW of 4470, whether VGs or not.
You really need to specify your budget as operating costs. The purchase price becomes (nearly) irrelevant the day the bill of sale is s9gned over to you.
Your $175-$200K range gets you everything from a Twin Comanche to Dukes and Aerostars, and all the 300- and 400- series Cessnas. Twin Comanche (nice little planes, but limited load and utility) might cost $200-250/hr and a Duke will be close to $600/hr. How much do you want to play?
The PHX-DEN trip skews the criteria towards big guns, but since that is a once-in-awhile event, accepting limitations (fair weather, round-about routing to avoid really high mountains) would, to me, make it reasonable to consider N/A Barons or the Seneca. Anywhere near the mountains, playing the FIKI game also requires turbocharging and flight level capability, pressurized or not, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Aerostar is actually a pretty interesting option. Can be had comfortably in the sub-$200k price range. Fast, relatively efficient (for a twin), and a reasonable cabin size. Aerostar is on my personal short list if i upgrade at some point.
 
WDD said:
Mandates from wives cannot be ignored.
Click to expand...

While that's generally true, the price and operating cost delta between a Cessna 340 and a 310 can buy a really *really* nice couch.

:D
 
GRG55 said:
Soooo, your wife plans to luxuriate with her girlfriends while sipping mint juleps in the club seating in back while you're sweating the close-to-minimums approach all by yourself in the left seat up front?
Just askin' :D
Click to expand...
That's exactly what she plans on doing...

GRG55 said:
As you certainly already know, if club seating and avoiding a pressurized cabin class airplane are mandatory conditions, you're pretty well limited to the Seneca and Baron 58. Neither are particularly attractive twin piston airplane choices as an owner or pilot quite frankly.

The twin engine airplanes that seem to have the most beloved followings from experienced twin piston owners on this forum seem to me the ones most often dismissed or ignored by those that have never owned a piston twin. And I don't recall anyone raving about owning and flying a Seneca or B-58, despite the club seating, on this forum.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying, but it seems that the Seneca/310/B58 are ubiquitous in the light twin markets. I think they do have their followings (almost cult-like in some cases). I'm not opposed to looking at some of the non-standard answers, but I think from a parts/maintenance aspect, getting one of the more "common" models may be the way to go.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
Seneca numbers that I recall (not necessarily the final word):
Seneca II with VG's gets max ZFW of 4168. The III and IV have max ZFW of 4470, whether VGs or not.
You really need to specify your budget as operating costs. The purchase price becomes (nearly) irrelevant the day the bill of sale is s9gned over to you.
Your $175-$200K range gets you everything from a Twin Comanche to Dukes and Aerostars, and all the 300- and 400- series Cessnas. Twin Comanche (nice little planes, but limited load and utility) might cost $200-250/hr and a Duke will be close to $600/hr. How much do you want to play?
The PHX-DEN trip skews the criteria towards big guns, but since that is a once-in-awhile event, accepting limitations (fair weather, round-about routing to avoid really high mountains) would, to me, make it reasonable to consider N/A Barons or the Seneca. Anywhere near the mountains, playing the FIKI game also requires turbocharging and flight level capability, pressurized or not, IMHO.
Click to expand...
True, the VGs would get me closer to the MZFW I would like. The IIIs have an increased MZFW, but from what I'm reading, and increase is negated by the heavier airplane leaving the same ZF load.

I'd like to keep the operating costs to around $300/hour +/- depending on performance.
 
WDD said:
Mandates from wives cannot be ignored. Club seating is what she wants.

For your price range, what about a Saratoga? Not a twin, but hits all of your requirements.
Click to expand...
I know, I know... the angel on my shoulder keeps whispering "get a Saratoga... it's all you really need." The problem is the devil on the other side is screaming "YOU NEED A TWIN!":devil:
 
iamtheari said:
Unless I added wrong when I was checking out the POH, trying to make the same decision you are trying to make, the max payload in my friend’s Seneca (which I think is a II), based on empty weight and maximum zero fuel weight, is 1077 lbs. That adds up to 4 adults of fairly stout construction, on average.

I’ll be following this thread in the hope of being talked out of a cabin class twin for my family’s mission. Since my last thread on the topic, commercial air service for our mission has gotten markedly worse, so the temptation is stronger than ever.
Click to expand...
I think the hard part is trying to figure out what a standard EW is. What I've been seeing online it varies from 3,000-3,300 lbs. Which leaves 1,000-700 lbs of non-fuel stuff. The 300 lb swing, really does mean the difference of an adult and bags. There so many different options that change that number (VGs, lighter alternators, newer/lighter avionics) I guess I really have to go plane by plane and see.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top