What Order: AP, Navigator, Engine Monitor

Sinistar

Sinistar

En-Route
Joined
Sep 9, 2016
Messages
3,734
Display Name
Display name:
Brad
I have been giving this some thought lately. Our avionics upgrade still needs a Navigator, Engine Monitor and auto pilot. Right now the plane has dual KX155. The display on the non-ILS KX155 is getting worse each winter (hence GNC355). We've got a A&P we really like and a avionics shop we really like. We don't want to do this all at once because we are also buying a hangar. We know there is a hit (eg. 10%+) when not doing a larger chunk of work and that is okay as breaking up into smaller pieces means being able to pay cash, no financing and its just paid for.

I have been flying (VFR) at least 100hrs per year and planning on more longer cross countries. I would like to start the instrument rating this year but I can see it slipping to next year. So as nice as it would be to have a Navigator right now...it would be of limited use until I get trained. My wife could use it, she's just not instrument current but also not flying as much.

So the more I think of it, from a safety work-load POV I am thinking the AP would be my best first move. I would love to be hands free on these flights over 2hrs. I have no intent of flying through clouds, just keeping straight and level and learning to integrate it into my flying. However it sure could help if I was stupid enough to get into that scenario. So I was thinking the following order:

This year:
- Auto pilot (leaning towards Tru-Track)
- Engine Monitor (probably JPI 830)
- Get the hangar insulated and heated by next winter

Next Year
- GNC355 / CDI / Garmin audio panel

...thoughts? Any reason to not do the AP first when only VFR for another year or two?
 
Monitor gps AP

monitor is more important, AP without gps is marginally useful.
 
Unless I missed it, I don't see what kind of airplane you have. If one with a constant speed prop, I would vote for an engine monitor first. Once you fly with one, you will wonder how you ever did without one.

GPS and then AP. If you get the AP ahead of the GPS navigator, you will have to spend extra money on equipment to drive the AP that won't be needed when you get the GPS navigator.

Plus - you will love flying with a new modern GOS navigator regardless if you have an AP.
 
Yes, constant speed prop.

Thanks for the feedback. I see the answers are favoring the costs. Just curious though, given these same three choices and throwing additional costs out, to go a different order...wouldn't adding the AP first potentially be the best regarding safety.
 
Sinistar said:
Yes, constant speed prop.

Thanks for the feedback. I see the answers are favoring the costs. Just curious though, given these same three choices and throwing additional costs out, to go a different order...wouldn't adding the AP first potentially be the best regarding safety.
Click to expand...
You can always fly a plane by hand. You can’t fly a plane without situational awareness.
 
Navigator, AP, monitor, in that order of priority.

The navigator will be the heart of any IFR equipped aircraft, and WAAS GPS is central to a capable IFR aircraft. If you are training for the IR, you want to train with an IFR GPS.

An AP will be immensely helpful if you use your instrument rating, especially single-pilot IFR. It's not essential, but highly desirable and a safety upgrade in knowledgable hands.

The engine monitor will help you properly operate your engine and extend its life. Is it really the highest priority? You can fly and train for IFR without either the monitor or AP.

As others have pointed out, NAV before AP will involve less installation work.
 
monitor
the most expensive part of the airplane, the engine can suffer without it
what will suffer damage if you don't get avionics?

Or just get a loan and do it all at once!
 
Sinistar said:
Yes, constant speed prop.

Thanks for the feedback. I see the answers are favoring the costs. Just curious though, given these same three choices and throwing additional costs out, to go a different order...wouldn't adding the AP first potentially be the best regarding safety.
Click to expand...

A WAAS GPS capable of flying approaches, providing graphical situational awareness, and displaying WX is far more useful than an AP for safety. Even glass displays like dual G5s will increase safety by collecting critical flight and nav data within your immediate scan.

You can and should be able to fly IFR without an autopilot. But having an AP connected to a GPS with GPSS roll steering is far more capable for enhancing safety than an AP attached to VOR/LOC/ILS nav.

Capability first, automation second.
 
We swore off any airplane loans hence the question on the order if done piecemeal. If we weren't buying the hangar it might be a much different upgrade.
 
Monitor would be first for me - it’s the least expensive thing on your list protecting the most expensive thing on the plane. Then Nav, then AP. I do agree the AP is a more important safety feature than a Navigator (you do have some sort of handheld for situational awareness, right?), but your AP is going to depend on your navigator and you don’t want to screw that up or it will get expensive.
 
Navigator, AP, monitor.

I mean I assume your plane has flown its whole life without a monitor. I'd be inclined to add a monitor when I overhaul the engine but as for now meh. A fuel scan though should be required equipment.

Navigator is useful both ifr and vfr. Might as well get it now and learn to use it well vfr so you will ne a bit more comfy with it in ifr.

AP i ain't gonna lie is some kind of nice. But you will be limited with it without a nice navigator.

So recap....navigator, AP, monitor. Fuels scans are cheap so add it now anyway.
 
Clip4 said:
Navigator first. The monitor would be the last item on my list.
Click to expand...

Oh damn, I agree with Clip. Monitor last. It's not like you've been falling out of the sky for the last few years without one, right?
 
Nav happened for years without GPS. You’re not flying approaches, holds, etc. if you’re not IFR. Use your tablet for VFR. If you needed to fly IFR, you have your ILS equipment.

Engine monitor? I’m on the fence. Run rich of peak instead, but spend more fuel money. More TBO with a monitor? I don’t know.

AP? Planes came with them before GPS and before full blown engine monitors. Probably because affordable GA tech wasn’t available yet. But AP is useful to you right now, today, more than the other two tools.

My plane came with AP. I only put a GPS nav in this spring. Started IFR training last month. Engine monitor maybe later.

But that’s just me.
 
Salty said:
Monitor gps AP

monitor is more important, AP without gps is marginally useful.
Click to expand...
This order is how I have done mine. My GNC355 install finishes next week. I already had an AP but it could use upgrading. Will sell the plane for an upgrade before I do that though.
 
You were asked above whether you had a CS prop. Let me ask the follow up question: are you fuel injected or carbureted?

The real fuel savings that a monitor can assist with really require fuel injection.

I’d say that unless you’re going IFR, you can get by without GPS or an AP, despite how nice those are to have.

But you don’t have to fly IFR to benefit greatly from the monitor. Fuel savings, potential for engine longevity, possibly detecting a maintenance issue before it becomes significant, etc.

Monitor, GPS, AP.
 
The real value of the monitor isn't fuel savings, it's in mx. Which plug is dead? You know immediately. Got a fuel flow problem, it's in jug #x. A ton of stuff becomes cheap and easy. Might even pay for that GPS over time.

Besides, the one thing you can't fly without is the engine.
 
Not enough information to make a reasonable analysis. What kind of airplane, how fast? You get lost faster going 150 mph than 80. How old? How long has that motor been successfully banging around up front? VFR or IFR? VFR, says me save your money for avgas. IFR? First thing is an approach capable GPS. Next thing is an autopilot to lower your workload while you fly IFR. Last thing is the engine monitor. Engine has been successfully doing it's thing for a long time without.
 
Sinistar said:
This year:
- Auto pilot (leaning towards Tru-Track)
- Engine Monitor (probably JPI 830)
- Get the hangar insulated and heated by next winter

Next Year
- GNC355 / CDI / Garmin audio panel

...thoughts? Any reason to not do the AP first when only VFR for another year or two?
Click to expand...
I’ve done a ton of upgrades the last 3 years. Some I wish I had done differently or chose different equipment. Based on what you’ve mentioned, I’d go:
1) autopilot (FULL functioning/digital)
2) engine monitor (one that is certified to replace all your old factory gauges)
3) WAAS nav/com (I’m partial to Avidyne but whatever floats your boat. Download and play with both their simulators. I’d recommend a PSE audio panel as that is all they do (mine is a rebranded PSE and love it)

Have fun on your upgrades whatever order/stuff you decide on. I’m starting to think I may have an upgrade addiction :)
 
Wow, thanks for all the input and even better...the rationale. Sorry I didn't include more details so here goes:

VFR for now and minimum 1 more year and maybe 2yrs
Cessna 182 carb stock 0470
Engine is 700 SMOH (TBO 1500)
Top end is only 200hrs
We have a GTX345. Using Garmin Pilot, GPS, ADSB in for a few years.
One Navcom display is getting cranky thus the GNC355 vs GNX175
The KX155 ILS/GS works fine.
Single EGT monitor.

...if our hangar "winterization" doesn't get too out of hand I can probably do both the AP and Engine monitor and have our A&P do it. He works pretty well with our avionics shop so maybe he could take a few pointers so that the AP install isn't like a total revamp when the Navigator gets installed.

I would love to have the navigator+audio panel right away but it would precede my IR training by at least a year. Thus thinking about the AP which I could use right away and frankly I'd be happy manually tweaking headings to track a magenta line with wind corrections until the navigator can close the loop. Or heck, maybe even a Garmin aera to feed it until the navigator is installed.

When it comes to the engine monitor I would love the primary but it seems like if anything fails the plane is down. If we did primary I would still want tach / MP/ oil press / oil temp. The thing I want most out of the Engine Monitor is fuel flow first and then leaning with the diagnostics being obvious.

I also wanted to end with the Navigator last as I figure that is when the panel gets full and I'd rather have the avionics shop moving all that stuff around.

Just thoughts. Feel free to teach my dumb arse!
 
Radar Contact said:
I’ve done a ton of upgrades the last 3 years. Some I wish I had done differently or chose different equipment. Based on what you’ve mentioned, I’d go:
1) autopilot (FULL functioning/digital)
2) engine monitor (one that is certified to replace all your old factory gauges)
3) WAAS nav/com (I’m partial to Avidyne but whatever floats your boat. Download and play with both their simulators. I’d recommend a PSE audio panel as that is all they do (mine is a rebranded PSE and love it)

Have fun on your upgrades whatever order/stuff you decide on. I’m starting to think I may have an upgrade addiction :)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice. And you do have a upgrade addiction!!! But we get to live vicariously through you on YouTube. Can't wait to see the new paint!!!!
 
Sinistar said:
When it comes to the engine monitor I would love the primary but it seems like if anything fails the plane is down. If we did primary I would still want tach / MP/ oil press / oil temp. The thing I want most out of the Engine Monitor is fuel flow first and then leaning with the diagnostics being obvious.
Click to expand...
That was pretty much my exact thought when I went with the Insight Twin G4. It’s been great but after speaking to people that have had the replacement versions, they don’t seem to have any problems. My 40 year old gauges are going to need some work if I keep them and I really don’t want to pump more money into them with the new tech out there. Plus it’ll clean up the panel and reduce a little weight. That’ll be my last avionics upgrade I’m thinking. Maybe later next year sometime.
Sinistar said:
Can't wait to see the new paint!!!
Click to expand...
Me too! I’m patiently waiting on some progress pics.
 
@Sinistar,

A couple more pieces of information that would be useful:

In an ideal world, what would be the final state of your panel?

Also, how long do you plan to keep this airplane - Is it your forever plane, or do you expect to step up to something else in a few years?

Here are my thoughts on the equipment - Not in any particular order yet:

A) Engine monitor: Easier to install when you are overhauling the engine already, but you may also want to get a baseline of data for how your engine performs before the overhaul so you'll know for sure when it's broken in as well as what "normal" should be. If you're not actually going to look at this data, then don't bother. The 182/O-470 is pretty solid as long as you fly it often. Our club's old 182N went 2471 hours on a Poplar Grove overhaul without an engine monitor (we installed one at the overhaul at the end of that though). Consider where you want to end up. If you think you might go glass at some point, I'd save the engine monitor for that upgrade. Alternatively, if you have an older 182, there's an oil line from the engine all the way to the panel that can break and dump hot oil into the cockpit, plus if it (or the gauge) breaks you can't get replacements. If you have that set of gauges (our 1971 did, I'm not sure when they switched to having a transducer in front of the firewall), you should definitely get rid of the stock factory gauges and use a certified replacement monitor like the JPI 930. More expensive now, but will save you maintenance headaches down the road. I'd also recommend you add carb temp to it when you get it.

B) Autopilot: Definitely a nice thing to have... But mostly when it's connected to a navigator. I do understand the thought behind getting it first and just running it in Heading/Track mode and navigating off the iPad while you're still VFR, but this is definitely something you'll want to talk with the avionics shop about, because there is likely to be a substantial amount of re-wiring of the autopilot control unit if you put the GPS in later.

C) Navigator. This would probably be the first thing I'd do even if you didn't have a failing KX155. It'll let you get completely comfortable with the navigator before starting your IR, you won't have to re-do anything on the autopilot after you install it, and you won't be left high and dry if your KX155 fails earlier than you expect. The LED replacement displays for the KX155 cost $4,000 (for the part), so it makes no sense to not just get a new radio at that point. Get the GNC355 now, and you won't have to worry about being in that situation.

So, here's my suggestion: 1) Navigator, 2) Autopilot, 3) Engine monitor.

But... Check with your avionics shop to see how much of a difference it will make to (1) install the engine monitor when the engine is already going to be off vs installing it with the engine staying on; and (2) how much rewiring will be required if you do the autopilot before the navigator. That's the only way you can make a good decision for your situation here, since most of us (with the exception of @Jesse Saint) are merely speculating as to the actual differences in cost.

Let us know what you decide... And send pictures! :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top