What next... glider, tailwheel?

deyoung

deyoung

Line Up and Wait
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I'm debating adding something new, for fun and variety and better skills, and I'm mostly debating between getting a glider rating and getting a tailwheel endorsement. I have zero time in either, and places probably about equally (in)convenient to do either.

Sooner or later I may well do them both, but that's a little farther out... time, money, family, all that. So which would you do first, why, or does it matter?

Right now I have around 340 hours, almost all in Cherokees, with around 165 of that XC.
 
Tailwheel is a blast!

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If you’re not going to end up doing much more flying in a tailwheel or glider I’d go get the glider, it’ll teach you stuff they could save your bacon.

The tailwheel I’d recommend if you could do a backcountry/off airport course like this, in which case it would be my recommendation
https://bush-air.com/school.htm
 
I don't expect to be able to stay current in either, though that might change if I found them super fun. :) It's not in my budget to buy either, though, so it seems unlikely. Mostly this would be for the fun to do it and the extra skills and experience.
 
Glider training typically wastes a lot of time since it’s done by clubs. You end up sitting around for 6 hours to fly .6 hours (two tows to 3000 ft without catching a thermal). With the cost of tows during training plus club fees, I also found the cost per hour of flight time exceeded that of powered aircraft. After a couple hours of training I decided it wasn’t worth all the down time time and I wasn’t having enough fun to justify the time/cost.

At least that was my experience at 2-3 different clubs I tried out.

On the other hand tailwheel can be fun in the right plane. (A J3 with the door open).

But IMHO, if you want to have a blast trying something new in the air, do a seaplane rating. I found that to be the most fun training I’ve done in an airplane. Helicopters are also a ton of fun, though It might not be worth the money to get the license if you aren’t going to fly one. Autogyros/gyroplanes are almost as fun as helicopters, but are a lot cheaper if you can find someone doing training in them.
 
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deyoung said:
I'm debating adding something new, for fun and variety and better skills, and I'm mostly debating between getting a glider rating and getting a tailwheel endorsement. I have zero time in either, and places probably about equally (in)convenient to do either.

Sooner or later I may well do them both, but that's a little farther out... time, money, family, all that. So which would you do first, why, or does it matter?

Right now I have around 340 hours, almost all in Cherokees, with around 165 of that XC.
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I think the flying, not so much the training, is what will make you a better pilot. So if you're not going to fly gliders or tailwheel, my suggestion is just fly more. Maybe take some advanced training in your own aircraft.
 
I'm finishing up my tailwheel endorsement now, and after all of the effort I have put in, I would not recommend it over glider unless you have access to a tailwheel airplane to stay current in.

The 3 big reasons are, it will take more than 10 hours (the endorsement time at most schools) to get comfortable with the tailwheel aircraft, so you need to be able to get some solo time to build confidence. It is a perishable skill (as much of aviation is) so if you cannot use it, you will lose it. And last, many schools that teach it will not allow solo time, either because of policies or (in a couple of cases I have seen) they don't have insurance for solos. Get your tailwheel when you sell your Cherokee for a Cessna 180.

I would go for a glider rating (full disclosure: it's my next move, the only reason I went tailwheel first is that my club has a Champ), it's a lot of fun, it's a rather different flying experience. It will teach you things that will help you handle your Cherokee better in the air (granted tailwheel training will help you land better), and it will give you that quiet comfort of knowing that if you fail a medical you can still fly.
 
I’m first and foremost a glider guider - though I stopped actively flying them over 10 years ago. I spent many of the intervening years flying a tailwheel Maule.

Getting either rating will challenge you, educate you, but ultimately fall well short of what either pursuit could ultimately give you. Which is not to say not to do it, but don’t expect too much unless you take the next steps.

Gliding, or more accurately soaring, is the most fun I have ever had or will ever have in aviation. Full enjoyment requires more than the rating. Learning to soar, that is learning to stay in the air for hours using thermal, ridge and/or wave lift will give you an understanding of the atmosphere that is otherwise inaccessible in other aircraft. Flying a reasonably high performance glass sailplane is a joy as well. Going cross country successfully, and unsuccessfully, is the full Monty so to speak. Racing them is the ultimate. Getting the rating will only give you a limited sense of where the real fun and challenge is. Try it, you might like it. But you may walk away disappointed as well.

Tailwheel flying will make you a better pilot, but just getting the rating will again only give you a limited view of what is actually there. Getting some extended tailwheel time, which means for most of us owning a tailwheel aircraft, is where the value is. Get that experience and you will be a better stick and rudder pilot. My tailwheel flying ended 8 years ago but I know that I will always be a better stick and rudder pilot because of it. Always. Try it, you might like the airplanes it gives you access to and perhaps end up owning one, but you may walk away having been challenged but not experienced.
Have you ever been tailwheeling ?
Not just rated but experienced....

Go for something!




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Oh, and I forgot the best part of getting your glider rating, it involves you in another aviation community.

I attended my first soaring gathering a few weeks ago. The weather wasn't that great, but hanging out at the gliderport with the other pilots was worth the trip. But, if the weather was good (and I was rated), I could have enjoyed all the event had to offer renting a glider from the gliderport (they had a few available).
 
skier said:
Glider training typically wastes a lot of time since it’s done by clubs. You end up sitting around for 6 hours to fly .6 hours (two tows to 3000 ft without catching a thermal). With the cost of tows during training plus club fees, I also found the cost per hour of flight time exceeded that of powered aircraft. After a couple hours of training I decided it wasn’t worth all the down time time and I wasn’t having enough fun to justify the time/cost.

At least that was my experience at 2-3 different clubs I tried out.

On the other hand tailwheel can be fun in the right plane. (A J3 with the door open).

But IMHO, if you want to have a blast trying something new in the air, do a seaplane rating. I found that to be the most fun training I’ve done in an airplane. Helicopters are also a ton of fun, though It might not be worth the money to get the license if you aren’t going to fly one. Autogyros/gyroplanes are almost as fun as helicopters, but are a lot cheaper if you can find someone doing training in them.
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Agree on all counts, but as a CFI in tailwheel, glider and SES I still think that the best one for landing skills is tailwheel, for airborne skills is glider, and for fun is float plane. I especially agree that getting a rating (glider and SES) is going to take a good bit of time and expense, while getting an endorsement (tailwheel) is much simpler in that regard. You could also get instruction in all three with no intention of adding anything required by the regulations, sort of like a sampler in a restaurant without getting a full meal. :)

FWIW, I think instructing in tailwheel is the most challenging for an instructor. Bad things seem to happen more quickly than in a glider or float plane.
 
I think learning gliders is a deeply useful set of skills, considering any powered plane can become a glider at a moment's notice ;)

Find a commercial operation to learn gliders. They are out there, usually located at the 'good' soaring sites. Here's an example.

http://www.jerseyridgesoaring.com/
 
skier said:
Glider training typically wastes a lot of time since it’s done by clubs. You end up sitting around for 6 hours to fly .6 hours (two tows to 3000 ft without catching a thermal). With the cost of tows during training plus club fees, I also found the cost per hour of flight time exceeded that of powered aircraft. After a couple hours of training I decided it wasn’t worth all the down time time and I wasn’t having enough fun to justify the time/cost.
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I always enjoyed the club atmosphere...hang out at the airport, make friends, talk flying, learn by watching...

But then, when I was growing up, social gathering was part of aviation.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I always enjoyed the club atmosphere...hang out at the airport, make friends, talk flying, learn by watching...

But then, when I was growing up, social gathering was part of aviation.
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I didn't grow up in aviation and I enjoy the social aspect as well, but when I am training and trying to get proficient in a new skill, it makes for a frustrating training environment.

But definitely hang out with the club once you get the rating.
 
MarkH said:
I didn't grow up in aviation and I enjoy the social aspect as well, but when I am training and trying to get proficient in a new skill, it makes for a frustrating training environment.

But definitely hang out with the club once you get the rating.
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I found that I learned at least as much alongside the runway as I did in the glider. For me it was a great training environment. YMMV.

Edit...while I taught at a commercial glider operation, we still made use of the “downtime” in much the same way, which didn’t seem the norm for the other commercial operations I visited.
 
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George Mohr said:
I think learning gliders is a deeply useful set of skills, considering any powered plane can become a glider at a moment's notice ;)
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I hope I don’t regret this.

So, after a couple thousand hours in gliders including almost 50 successful off field landings (and 2 not so successful landings), I went after my commercial airplane certificate. The flight test includes a power-off precision landing.

All went well except I failed the power-off landing, twice.

Howzat? I had inadvertently managed to talk my CFI out of practicing the power-off exercises based on the extensive glider experience. We both learned a bit from that.


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Bill Watson said:
I hope I don’t regret this.

So, after a couple thousand hours in gliders including almost 50 successful off field landings (and 2 not so successful landings), I went after my commercial airplane certificate. The flight test includes a power-off precision landing.

All went well except I failed the power-off landing, twice.

Howzat? I had inadvertently managed to talk my CFI out of practicing the power-off exercises based on the extensive glider experience. We both learned a bit from that.


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How do you “inadvertently” talk your instructor out of it?o_O

Did his learning involve counseling from the FAA?:eek:
 
MauleSkinner said:
How do you “inadvertently” talk your instructor out of it?o_O

Did his learning involve counseling from the FAA?:eek:
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How? We did one power-off landing but I’m thinking that my humblebragging about all the glider experience convinced him we didn’t need to do more, even though that was not my intent.

FAA counseling? I suspect that the inspector may have had a word or two with him but probably not needed. We were both embarrassed enough to learn from it.


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On my private checkride, the DPE was like 'show me this awesome glider stuff on this power off landing'. I almost blew it :)
 
Another thing to think about is that if you are coming up for a flight review getting a new rating will cover that so there's a bit of savings since you won't need a BFR for another two years. This would only apply to glider or seaplane rating, not tailwheel endorsement. On the other hand the tailwheel endorsement probably affords the best opportunity to actually continue to utilize the new skill as, at least in my area, there are a number of places that have a Champ or Citabria available for solo rent and the glider or SES rating will cost more to get.
 
I think the value of flying gliders has more to do with dealing with adverse yaw, and less to do with landing skills that would apply to powered aircraft.

Sully got a lot of press from the fact that he had glider experience but in fact he was really just landing an airliner gear up with an extremely long "runway", and was blessed with relatively calm waters and gentle tidal flow. If he thought he was in a glider he would have made it Teterboro, or back to LaGuardia. ;)
 
Silvaire said:
Another thing to think about is that if you are coming up for a flight review getting a new rating will cover that so there's a bit of savings since you won't need a BFR for another two years. This would only apply to glider or seaplane rating, not tailwheel endorsement. On the other hand the tailwheel endorsement probably affords the best opportunity to actually continue to utilize the new skill as, at least in my area, there are a number of places that have a Champ or Citabria available for solo rent and the glider or SES rating will cost more to get.
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Although it probably wouldn’t take more than the minimum time on required ground subjects to add a flight review sign off to a tailwheel endorsement, either.

Edit: coordinate the flight review up front. ;)
 
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Of those two choices, tail wheel for sure. I have had almost every rating there is, and hold a commercial license for both fixed and rotary wing aircraft. I would have to say the best ratings for me though were my float endorsement, next was IFR, then tail wheel. If you have an opportunity to get your float endorsement, it opens up a whole new world.
 
Based on time of year, I'd probably do the tailwheel endorsement in the winter, and see if you could get some glider time when you'll find more lift, although I'm guessing you might get some mountain ridge stuff out there in Arizona.
 
Are you looking for for fun or evolution as a pilot?
 
MauleSkinner said:
I always enjoyed the club atmosphere...hang out at the airport, make friends, talk flying, learn by watching...

But then, when I was growing up, social gathering was part of aviation.
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I’m ok with some of that, but more on the order of 1 hour flying, 1 hour socializing/helping (1:1) not .6 hours flying 6 hours socializing/helping (1:10)
 
Good thinking, Estrella just west of Phoenix is a great place to add the glider rating, which you can probably do in a week. This time of year it will be cooler and more pleasant than that oven in the summer.


You can do tailwheel many places, but consider somewhere like Warbird Adventures at Kissimmee and do it in a T-6. either way try to get something that you have little or no visibility out the front. like a J3 Cub or the back seat of a T-6. If you sit in the front seat of a Super Cub or Citabria where you can see straight ahead over the nose you really are only getting half the experience. You can do basic tailwheel checkout in 5 to 10 hours, its easy in calm winds.
I have enjoyed gliders, but have found most glider places 95% male, humorless, and not overly friendly, kind of keep to themselves. Ive flown med high performance gliders, but I have found more enjoyment in higher performance tailwheel planes, start with Cub or Tiger Moth, and go up the list Stearman, T-6, P-51 etc. Mainly that takes money, but it is a thrill.
 
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No tail dragger time, so I can't help there.

I have all of 0.4 hours dual in a glider. In the UK. I was in York in 2011 for EMC Europe. The chair of the committee that year was a professor at the University of York and an instructor at a local glider club. We played hooky one afternoon and went flying. I knew we were going to, so I brought my log book. We got towed up to 4000 MSL (AGL?, too many years ago) and cut loose. No lift, we had an inversion, so it was basically all downhill from there. We tried some aerobatics, I got some pictures from the air (York Minster is very impressive from the ground, from about 3000 AGL not so much) and I did the landing. Those spoilers/air brakes make it very easy to put it on the ground right where you want. Bottom line? I can see how people get hooked on sail planes. That was entirely too much fun! I need to look into a local club and get my rating.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
Good thinking, Estrella just west of Phoenix is a great place to add the glider rating, which you can probably do in a week. This time of year it will be cooler and more pleasant than that oven in the summer.
(Snippety Snip)
I have enjoyed gliders, but have found most glider places 95% male, humorless, and not overly friendly, kind of keep to themselves.
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Estrella and Arizona in general; great soaring conditions in season. Winter, not so much. I spent a mid-winter week in Estrella getting acro instruction in a Grob. Fun stuff in beautiful sunny conditions but nary a convective bump to be found. Great for acro but sucks for soaring.

I trained with a glider club and spent every spare weekend moment at the glider port with the hope of getting an extra flight or two. Most of my time was on the ground shagging ropes and talking about flying with a bunch of great people. Great exercise for mind and body, especially for a single young man trying to mostly stay out of trouble.

Later when I owned a glider, flying was a day long exercise. Glider assembly, task planning and prep followed by a tow and a 2-5 hour flight with 0-4 other pilots. Landing, sometimes a retrieve from some farm field, disassembly, beer and dinner with the gaggle and crews.

It’s a social sport by necessity and the people tend towards the engineering side of things so there’s that. I liked it all a lot and will always miss the camaraderie and friendship. It can be the very best of flying times. Just getting the rating, not so much.


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No wrong answer. Tailwheel will teach you what those pedals are for, but careful, it might lead to EMT/Spin Training and then to aerobatics. All great fun and confidence boosting to learn.
 
Only Apaches and Gila monsters can survive in that dessert in the summer. As for lift, well it is a lot more comfortable when starting out to be a glider pilot than a soaring pilot. It might be kind of like boating, some are sailors some are power boaters.
 
This thread has not helped me! I've been debating glider or TW. First need to finish my IR though.
 
My vote is tailwheel. It made me much better with my feet and really got me a lot of slip experience. Did mine in a J-3 and a Stearman. My Archer made my feet really lazy. Tailwheel fixed that.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Based on time of year, I'd probably do the tailwheel endorsement in the winter, and see if you could get some glider time when you'll find more lift, although I'm guessing you might get some mountain ridge stuff out there in Arizona.
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If all you want is to check the box, winter is a great time to get a glider rating. No risk of heat stroke in the cockpit, and it's vastly easier to master the aerotow when there's zero lift.
 
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