What is your ETA on an IFR Flight?

[BoxcarJoe]

Hello All!

Just starting my IFR training and had a question come up relating to lost comms that I'm sure is an easy answer. When the regs say:

"When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route."

Would my ETA be based on what I filed as part of my flight plan? For example say my ETD was 1400Z and ETE was 1 hour on my flight plan. If my actual time off the ground was 1430Z, would my ETA now be 1530z (for commencing the approach in lost comms etc)? Or the original 1500Z as calculated in the flight plan?

Thanks!

 

[Hank S]

Hint: it's difficult to leave your clearance limit and start an approach before you reach it. Or do you "estimate" a large amount of extra time in your flight plans?

 

[BoxcarJoe]

Hint: it's difficult to leave your clearance limit and start an approach before you reach it. Or do you "estimate" a large amount of extra time in your flight plans?

I don’t think I get the hint! Haha

Reason I ask is my understanding is that atc only has your flight plan for calculating the ETA. So if you’re lost comm I presume they’d look at your ETD and add the ETE to it to determine your arrival time. If you depart an hour late then you could be departing at the same time as what your flight plan says is the ETA.

 

[Larry in TN]

You're thinking too hard. ETA is off time plus ETE.

 

[Hank S]

I don’t think I get the hint! Haha

Reason I ask is my understanding is that atc only has your flight plan for calculating the ETA. So if you’re lost comm I presume they’d look at your ETD and add the ETE to it to determine your arrival time. If you depart an hour late then you could be departing at the same time as what your flight plan says is the ETA.

Your flight will take an hour. You depart 30 minutes later than anticipated on your flight plan. How can you start the approach at the expected time despite leaving late? You aren't there yet . . .

 

[BoxcarJoe]

Your flight will take an hour. You depart 30 minutes later than anticipated on your flight plan. How can you start the approach at the expected time despite leaving late? You aren't there yet . . .

I see your point, but I would just consider that as being way behind and approach without delay. If I was early then I’d wait until the ETA time calculated by the flight plan numbers.

Larry answered and that makes perfect sense, I just wonder how that’s recorded in the system.

 

[Eric Gleason]

Larry’s right, you’re thinking too hard. They know your ATD and the ETE you filed. In this scenario, your ETA is 1530.


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[Sundancer]

One of the ATC gurus can answer best, but I think it's really not worth your time noodling about it. My guess is once ATC knows you are lost comms, they'll watch you like a hawk, if they have radar contact, and expect you to press on to destination, and shoot an approach, one they'll likely discern as you position for it. I doubt they'll be watching the clock on you in a radar environment.

 

[chemgeek]

There's the regs and then there is what you are going to actually do in a real lost comm emergency. The reality is that ATC will likely want you out of their airspace as expeditiously as possible, because they are going to be clearing a wide swath for you until you are safely on the ground. I doubt anyone actually in this situation is actually going to mark time until their ETA to shoot an approach. If you have a total electrical failure in IMC, as in no panel electronics at all, you'll have to get creative, and quickly, to get to safety.

 

[ja_user]

There's the regs and then there is what you are going to actually do in a real lost comm emergency. The reality is that ATC will likely want you out of their airspace as expeditiously as possible, because they are going to be clearing a wide swath for you until you are safely on the ground. I doubt anyone actually in this situation is actually going to mark time until their ETA to shoot an approach. If you have a total electrical failure in IMC, as in no panel electronics at all, you'll have to get creative, and quickly, to get to safety.

Ding Ding!!!!

squawk lost coms, go to a fix, fly the full approach and everyone looking at the screen is going to have everyone else so far away from you it won't matter.

Non radar? Just don't hit anything I guess?

 

[midwestpa24]

Ding Ding!!!!

squawk lost coms, go to a fix, fly the full approach and everyone looking at the screen is going to have everyone else so far away from you it won't matter.

Non radar? Just don't hit anything I guess?

And that is where the book gets it wrong. This whole business of sitting in a hold at the initial approach fix until you ETA is not real world. Real world, you have a comm failure, you probably have even more going on. Best to get it on the ground as soon as practical. ATC sees you, and must keep everyone else well away from you not being able to confirm your next move. They don't want you tying up the approach for 30 minutes waiting on a clock. They want you on the ground.

 

[Clip4]

And that is where the book gets it wrong. This whole business of sitting in a hold at the initial approach fix until you ETA is not real world. Real world, you have a comm failure, you probably have even more going on. Best to get it on the ground as soon as practical. ATC sees you, and must keep everyone else well away from you not being able to confirm your next move. They don't want you tying up the approach for 30 minutes waiting on a clock. They want you on the ground.

If the ETE in the flight plan is a value you know will be expired when you arrive at your clearance limit (typically your destination airport) you can comply with the regulation and not hold.

 

[Kritchlow]

Well I’m confused. If everyone (read ATC) wants you to immediately execute the approach, why is the formal rule written as it is?

 

[Palmpilot]

Well I’m confused. If everyone (read ATC) wants you to immediately execute the approach, why is the formal rule written as it is?

Just guessing here, but maybe it's because ATC is not who wrote the rules, and the people who did write the rules probably didn't know what ATC wants.

It's also possible that the rules were written when radar coverage was less widespread.

 

[Kritchlow]

Because ATC is not who writes the rules, and the people who do write the rules probably don't know what ATC wants.

It's also possible that the rules were written when radar coverage was less widespread.

However ATC is part of the FAA. One would think they would consult.

 

[Palmpilot]

However ATC is part of the FAA. One would think they would consult.

Dream on!

 

[Kritchlow]

Dream on!

Lol!! Yeah, but why not? I mean truly the only ones that care in this situation between waiting for ETA and immediate execution is ATC. If ATC wants immediate why should some lawyer suit care?

 

[Palmpilot]

I don’t think I get the hint! Haha

Reason I ask is my understanding is that atc only has your flight plan for calculating the ETA. So if you’re lost comm I presume they’d look at your ETD and add the ETE to it to determine your arrival time. If you depart an hour late then you could be departing at the same time as what your flight plan says is the ETA.

My understanding is that ATC never sees your flight plan, just certain information from it. But whatever they get, I doubt that there is any math going on in ATC facilities.

 

[Palmpilot]

Lol!! Yeah, but why not? I mean truly the only ones that care in this situation between waiting for ETA and immediate execution is ATC. If ATC wants immediate why should some lawyer suit care?

My guess is that in practice, it hasn't been a big enough problem to motivate the FAA to clean up this particular reg.

 

[Sundancer]

Well I’m confused. If everyone (read ATC) wants you to immediately execute the approach, why is the formal rule written as it is?

Think 1960s bureacracy - plenty of smart FAA folks, but trapped in a maze. They struggle with consistency in many areas (ask multiple FSDOs the same question, get multiple answers). And as the previous poster said, it's likely not been a frequent enough problem, with enough bad outcomes, to raise its profile.

 

[Larry in TN]

And that is where the book gets it wrong. This whole business of sitting in a hold at the initial approach fix until you ETA is not real world.

The book procedure can not assume radar coverage.

GA pilots in the US tend to assume radar coverage. That works over most of the US but there is a lot of aviation going on outside of the US and outside of radar coverage. The book provides a procedure which is allow ATC to ensure separation with, or without, radar coverage.

With modern avionics, a full communications failure where navigation radios and transponder aren't also affected is rare. If/when it does occur in a radar environment ATC can handle either the book procedure or a pilot who improvises a bit. In a non-radar environment the book procedure provides the structure that ATC will use to ensure separation.

 

[Clip4]

Well I’m confused. If everyone (read ATC) wants you to immediately execute the approach, why is the formal rule written as it is?

Of course ATC wants you out of their hair. When you opt to not follow the rules and land safely all is good and if a mid air occurs, it also is not the controllers responsibility. Win win for a controller.