What is wrong with the people in the tower at HPN?? (rant)

[AV8R_87]

Is there lead in their drinking water? Tower built on a superfund site? Tower controller's wife ran away with a single piston owner?

I have never seen such a level of spite and unprofessionalism directed at GA piston aircraft in my life. Makes Chicago Approach look good by comparison.

Some time ago, NY APP was so busy you couldn't get a word through to ask for a B clearance, so we dropped below their outer B shelf and called HPN for a class D transit. Mind you, it's a day with some scattered showers, and one big cell is right on top of their field. Guess where they wanted us to go? Right through it. When given the unable (with the reason), they got all retaliatory and shooed us out of their class D. Apparently we were in the way of a Citation that was still on the ground, ready to depart. All it would've taken was a call to the Citation to stay below 2500ft for an extra mile for separation.

Another time, they invoked a fictitious "your ADS-B isn't working" reason to deny a class D transit. When called out on their BS, they came up with "you'll be crossing our arrivals corridor" reason. Nobody landed there as we called NY and got a class B clearance flying right over their arrivals corridor, 500ft higher.

Some other time, denied due to "traffic congestion". Guy only has three aircraft in the pattern and we're crossing 1000ft above.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?

Then you go a few miles away and talk to the guys at MMU and CDW. Two Class Ds touching each other, with the most helpful controllers ever. They will actually coordinate between them and hand you over as you transit. If they have an arrival or departure, they'll very nicely suggest a heading change to keep everyone clear. Night and day.

Anyone else has any experiences to share? Good or bad.

 

[RyanB]

Tower controller's wife ran away with a single piston owner?

I doubt it. Surely she’d have higher standards than someone with a single piston.

 

[Clip4]

Is there lead in their drinking water? Tower built on a superfund site? Tower controller's wife ran away with a single piston owner?

I have never seen such a level of spite and unprofessionalism directed at GA piston aircraft in my life. Makes Chicago Approach look good by comparison.

Some time ago, NY APP was so busy you couldn't get a word through to ask for a B clearance, so we dropped below their outer B shelf and called HPN for a class D transit. Mind you, it's a day with some scattered showers, and one big cell is right on top of their field. Guess where they wanted us to go? Right through it. When given the unable (with the reason), they got all retaliatory and shooed us out of their class D. Apparently we were in the way of a Citation that was still on the ground, ready to depart. All it would've taken was a call to the Citation to stay below 2500ft for an extra mile for separation.

Another time, they invoked a fictitious "your ADS-B isn't working" reason to deny a class D transit. When called out on their BS, they came up with "you'll be crossing our arrivals corridor" reason. Nobody landed there as we called NY and got a class B clearance flying right over their arrivals corridor, 500ft higher.

Some other time, denied due to "traffic congestion". Guy only has three aircraft in the pattern and we're crossing 1000ft above.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?

Then you go a few miles away and talk to the guys at MMU and CDW. Two Class Ds touching each other, with the most helpful controllers ever. They will actually coordinate between them and hand you over as you transit. If they have an arrival or departure, they'll very nicely suggest a heading change to keep everyone clear. Night and day.

Anyone else has any experiences to share? Good or bad.

What’s amazing is they tell you to FO and you keep going back.

 

[Salty]

What’s amazing is they tell you to FO and you keep going back.

If I tell you to FO will you go away?

 

[MikeNY]

spite and unprofessionalism directed at GA piston aircraft ... Anyone else has any experiences to share?

Perhaps due to less-frequent visits (in recent years), but no negative ATC experience flying HPN airspace.

Perceptions and expectations may differ, especially when comparing HPN to (CDW or MMU).
HPN with higher volume, and more varied mix of traffic (Part 121/135/91) operating air transport category aircraft, biz jets, and light aircraft ...
might not be comparable to a request transit class D for CDW or MMU.

From pilot perspective it appeared (a) just one Citation departing, (b) nobody landed there, or (c) just three aircraft in the pattern.
But is a 'pilot perspective' ... the full picture?

To reduce frustration, a few thoughts ...
1. If Tracon is too busy for class bravo clearance, consider whether feasible to fly laterally around HPN class delta (remaining clear of bravo)?
2. Instead of VFR, is filing IFR an option? (routing may be less straight-forward, but when IFR, no issues for enroute airspace clearance).
3. HPN Tower personnel have, and do, engage with general aviation pilots at FAA Safety seminars.
If heading over to White Plains is feasible, the controllers have been respectful, friendly, and HELPFUL when explaining how light aircraft fit into class delta operations.
(typically posted here; some are remote, or sometimes on-site event at HPN fbo)
i.e. pilots tell the controllers what they want/need, HPN Tower (manager & controllers) explain how requests may (or may not be) accommodated.
4. Tower tours might no longer be available for HPN (?), but a great way to see 'both sides'.
5. HPN-based Flying Club (local pilots) might offer advice: what's easiest way transit VFR through HPN class D?
https://wfc-hpn.org/meetings-events/

With respect to arrivals corridor, worth a look:
Local club published a few HPN-specific tips: https://wfc-hpn.org/wfc-special-procedures-khpn/
NY Tracon Letter to Airmen for HPN VFR traffic tips. (same link to HPN NOTAM for VFR northeast bound).

Controllers are not typically 'unprofessional or spiteful', and pilots may believe their request is reasonable.
But could there be some level of misperception or frustration ... on both sides?
Given an opportunity, ATC-pilot outreach/meetups have helped alleviate frustration.
"talk to 'em"

In case useful ...

 

[AV8R_87]

What’s amazing is they tell you to FO and you keep going back.

I'm sure your significant other told you to FO at some point in your dating life. That didn't stop you, did it?
Plus, this is PoA, nobody here will obey such a directive.

I'm merely intrigued at this point, trying to figure out what is their problem. One speculation, they are so addicted to ADS-B in (using it as a crutch instead of their brain and binoculars) that an aircraft not broadcasting a tail number (UAT has its perks) throws them off and they can't handle it.

From pilot perspective it appeared (a) just one Citation departing, (b) nobody landed there, or (c) just three aircraft in the pattern.
But is a 'pilot perspective' ... the full picture?

Between ADS-B IN, listening to the tower and even playing back ADS-B data after the fact, I'm inclined to believe my picture was pretty close to reality. Also, dealt with TEB multiple times at well, and that is one busy class D. I don't think I was once told to buzz off. I was given some specific instructions to keep me separated from arrivals/departures, but never flat out denied. And other busy places have treated me much better.
I had to check and see it it was a contract tower, but no. And funny enough, I've had significantly better experiences with a couple contract towers just recently.

Controllers are not typically 'unprofessional or spiteful'

When they explicitly direct a plane into a storm cell right over their field, if the two above are not the reason, then we're only left with incompetence. And being told the reason for the "unable", their only reply being GTFO, we go back to "unprofessional or spiteful". As I stated above, they need to start looking outside the window at what's happening around.

See pic below, they wanted me to go right through that precip where the low cloud is. I asked to deviate to the left, but that was too difficult for them. They would've had to potentially issue a couple additional instructions to their departing traffic to stay below for an extra half mile or so. Too complicated.

 

[Groundpounder]

I used to fly in and out of HPN VFR and IFR a ton. Never had any issues, but its very busy airspace in a very complicated airspace. Sometimes you have to be flexible, and can't expect to always get exactly what you want.

 

[Half Fast]

You’re talking to the wrong people. Call the tower, describe the issue, make an appointment to discuss it, take the photo with you.

Come back afterwards and let us know the outcome.