What is the demand for CFI who teaches upset recovery/aerobatics?

Aeron360

Aeron360

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Aeron
I'm thinking about getting my CFI and teaching aerobatics. I hear that aerobatic CFI's get paid a lot. I'm not necessarily as interested in the pay - I more interested in the amount of demand for an aerobatic CFI. I live in the Tyler Tx area - and there are few if any aerobatic CFI's that offer instruction close to my area. There's plenty of freelance CFI's who teach for private pilots licensing but no aerobatic CFI's. In going that route, regardless of where you live, what would you say that demand for aerobatic training is? And when I say aerobatic, I primarily mean stall/spin endorsements, tailwheel and unusual attitude/upset recovery training, and some intro aerobatics. More specifically, what is the amount of demand for these type endorsements/training?
 
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Very small to non-existent. That was at one point going to be my .mil retirement angle, but market survey said *buzzzzzzz* My only other option is those combat USA type deals, but their locations are not desirable for me. Pay is not consequential compared to the closest alternative with similar banker's hours (simulator work). So it'll stay a hobby for me.

I would not characterize dedicated aerobatic instruction to be particularly lucrative. It's niche, and the sigma in compensation are too wide and the n= too small to make a dent.

It's not even a recognized endorsement with the FAA, neither is formation work, which further dilutes the income leverage. I can tell you if I could have derived a six figure income doing it plus benefits, I wouldn't have pursued military for as long as I have. It was always the only kind of civilian flying that appealed to me, but it became clear to me early on, there's no money in it, absent certain one offs in the airshow circuit. *shrugs*
 
hindsight2020 said:
Very small to non-existent. That was at one point going to be my .mil retirement angle, but market survey said *buzzzzzzz* My only other option is those combat USA type deals, but their locations are not desirable for me. Pay is not consequential compared to the closest alternative with similar banker's hours (simulator work). So it'll stay a hobby for me.

I would not characterize dedicated aerobatic instruction to be particularly lucrative. It's niche, and the sigma in compensation are too wide and the n= too small to make a dent.

It's not even a recognized endorsement with the FAA, neither is formation work, which further dilutes the income leverage. I can tell you if I could have derived a six figure income doing it plus benefits, I wouldn't have pursued military for as long as I have. It was always the only kind of civilian flying that appealed to me, but it became clear to me early on, there's no money in it, absent certain one offs in the airshow circuit. *shrugs*
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Hmmm ok. Perhaps I should just stick with the traditional CFI route.
 
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There's some guys at ARR that that advertise just this. I have no idea if it's a profitable endeavor or just something they do to subsidize their hobby.

Being "new to flying" would probably temper my willingness to be a client.
 
Racerx said:
Being "new to flying" would probably temper my willingness to be a client.
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Student pilot is still a ways from getting a CFI license.
Just thought I'd throw it out there and see what I got.
 
Racerx said:
Being "new to flying" would probably temper my willingness to be a client.
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Agree. There used to be a (non-FAA) designation for aerobatic instructors, but apparently that has been discontinued? Kind of a shame they did away with it; I would have a hard time going up to learn acrobatics with someone who didn't have some kind of bona fides. Absent that certification/designation, I would want to at least know that they were an airshow competitor or something. Basically, I would want to know that what they were doing with me was way less intense than what they were capable of doing. I have taken a few aerobatic lessons from Fred Cabanas (RIP) in Key West, and loved every minute of it.

That being said, I think stall/spin and upset recovery don't quite cross the line (in my mind) into "aerobatic," and any CFI with an appropriate airplane and a good history of that kind of training should be fine.
 
mcmanigle said:
Agree. There used to be a (non-FAA) designation for aerobatic instructors, but apparently that has been discontinued? Kind of a shame they did away with it; I would have a hard time going up to learn acrobatics with someone who didn't have some kind of bona fides. Absent that certification/designation, I would want to at least know that they were an airshow competitor or something. Basically, I would want to know that what they were doing with me was way less intense than what they were capable of doing. I have taken a few aerobatic lessons from Fred Cabanas (RIP) in Key West, and loved every minute of it.

That being said, I think stall/spin and upset recovery don't quite cross the line (in my mind) into "aerobatic," and any CFI with an appropriate airplane and a good history of that kind of training should be fine.
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Completely agree with you. If I was considering that, preferably (and personally) I'd need experience in the field. Not just pop up one day after getting a CFI and say "Hey! I'm an aerobatic instructor, wanna go up for a lesson?" that type of thing. I'm thinking like a couple hundred hours of experience and maybe some intermediate level aerobatic competition under your belt before you start thinking of instruction.

Per the FAA interpretation (which I just looked up to double check) ...stall/spin and upset recovery isn't considered an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude and are used for the purpose of demonstrating recover procedures, therefore not considered aerobatics. Wrong terminology on my side.
 
Agree with those who say there isn't much demand. I had a citabria and picked up the majority of people interested in tail wheel instruction. Good thing it was a hobby and I had a good day job.
I also offered spin endorsements and did maybe 2-3 in three years. Since I know there were lots of CFI candidates on the field and I had the only plane certified for spins (one had a couple of planes but a strict policy prohibiting it) it made me wonder what those other people were doing.
I suspect it involved some quick work with a pencil.
 
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If you start doing it as a side business and you have other good steady work you can eventually build up a good enough reputation that there’s demand, but I would say that that probably takes years.
At this point, I might be able to go full-time doing Tailwheel and flight instruction on the side, but I would also probably have to live on a tighter budget than I do now with my aerial photography job. I’d say if you love it go for it but don’t expect to get rich.
 
RyanShort1 said:
If you start doing it as a side business and you have other good steady work you can eventually build up a good enough reputation that there’s demand, but I would say that that probably takes years.
At this point, I might be able to go full-time doing Tailwheel and flight instruction on the side, but I would also probably have to live on a tighter budget than I do now with my aerial photography job. I’d say if you love it go for it but don’t expect to get rich.
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Now that you mention it, I only know of one CFI who teaches full-time. Everyone else has a secondary job. Seems like there's a lot more to it than I thought...
 
I got my CFI many years ago to do this. But it was for an established FBO with clients already. It was fun, but in the days when flight instructors made a tiny hourly rate.

MUCH more primary training students.
 
I’d say, if you want to instruct full-time you should do it because you like making an impact on peoples lives, you’re a good people person, you enjoy helping others, and you like to see people become really good aviators. If you’re doing it just because you like the aerobatics, probably someone will make you not like instructing. If you enjoy instructing for the reasons I mentioned above then it won’t matter if you’re teaching aerobatics, tailwheel, primary, or advanced.
 
Also remember, everything where you introduce too much monetary pressure, the enjoyment gets wrecked. That's why low pay is especially problematic to cathartic-centering vocational pursuits. I'm grateful my wife just joined the workforce full time again after 9 years on the sidelines since getting out of enlisted .mil. Now as an acute care RN, we can compensate in this inflationary era for the pay cut I incur by staying in the military (as a reservist eligible to get out) vice going airlines. Granted she knew that kind of flying work was never my jam, so there was no bait and switch on my part. Nevertheless, I still get reminded of it as a legitimate opportunity cost, which in fairness to her, it is.

Meaning, I couldn't in good conscience try to emulate what I do, on the .civ side and expect her to be kosher. As a hobby otoh, I don't have have that pressure, and the household doesn't fall apart just because daddy wants to get cathartic release out of his primary occupation job but can't afford the rent. I always said I'd quit something if it made me hate what I work for in order to afford in the first place. I work to Live, not the other way around.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I’d say, if you want to instruct full-time you should do it because you like making an impact on peoples lives, you’re a good people person, you enjoy helping others, and you like to see people become really good aviators. If you’re doing it just because you like the aerobatics, probably someone will make you not like instructing. If you enjoy instructing for the reasons I mentioned above then it won’t matter if you’re teaching aerobatics, tailwheel, primary, or advanced.
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Well said:)
 
mcmanigle said:
Agree. There used to be a (non-FAA) designation for aerobatic instructors, but apparently that has been discontinued? Kind of a shame they did away with it; I would have a hard time going up to learn acrobatics with someone who didn't have some kind of bona fides. Absent that certification/designation, I would want to at least know that they were an airshow competitor or something. Basically, I would want to know that what they were doing with me was way less intense than what they were capable of doing. I have taken a few aerobatic lessons from Fred Cabanas (RIP) in Key West, and loved every minute of it.

That being said, I think stall/spin and upset recovery don't quite cross the line (in my mind) into "aerobatic," and any CFI with an appropriate airplane and a good history of that kind of training should be fine.
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From what I recall, I don’t think that IAC instructor program was terribly stringent on who applied and was approved. There was a guy near me that fancied himself an aerobatic instructor and got on the list but last I knew he had received no real instruction himself.

As far as aerobatic/upset training goes, I’d guess that the demand for it is less than 1% of the overall demand for instruction. The amount of spin and upset training that I’ve given is likely far above the average CFI, and most of that training was given to folks in pursuit of a flight instructor certificate. I’m sure I still have less than 200 hours out of 1500 hours of dual given that is this sort of training.
 
aftCG said:
I also offered spin enforcements and did maybe 2-3 in three years. Since I know there were lots of CFI candidates on the field and I had the only plane certified for spins (one had a couple of planes but a strict policy prohibiting it) it made me wonder what those other people were doing.
I suspect it involved some quick work with a pencil.
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When I was earning my CFI, I got my spin endorsement in a 172. We spun that airplane a bunch of times. I had done them previously in a Decathlon but most CFIs that I know did them in a 172. It closer to what most students will be learning in.

BTW, as a CFI, I do it part time and have a full time job (of sorts) running my small software business and managing a few rental properties.
 
I guess I was lucky. My CFI instructor was a aerobatic instructor. We did a lot more in the air than the CFI syllabus required.
 
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Zeldman said:
I guess I was lucky. My CFI instructor was a aerobics instructor. We did a lot more in the air than the CFI syllabus required.
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That sounds like a story way more fascinating than this thread.

DesertNomad said:
When I was earning my CFI, I got my spin endorsement in a 172. We spun that airplane a bunch of times. I had done them previously in a Decathlon but most CFIs that I know did them in a 172. It closer to what most students will be learning in.
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Right. The place I referred to has 152s and 172s, including tail numbers I've legally spun myself. I was surprised to learn they prohibit spins, citing that it damages the gyro instruments.
I thought "okay" and then "so wait, where do they get..."
 
aftCG said:
Right. The place I referred to has 152s and 172s, including tail numbers I've legally spun myself. I was surprised to learn they prohibit spins, citing that it damages the gyro instruments.
I thought "okay" and then "so wait, where do they get..."
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I've heard a few variations on the theme. Damaging the gyro instruments is one. Another is structural concerns with older trainers (no, not the spin itself but stresses from over-aggressive recoveries). Simple instructor inexperience (yeah, in theory all CFIs... but). There are flight schools which simply farm out spin training to independent CFIs who more or less specialize in it.

On the main question, I think there is a niche. But it's small and requires marketing.
 
Based on history, very high. I’ve had a few opportunities and never could get it scheduled because of demand.
 
aftCG said:
That sounds like a story way more fascinating than this thread.
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For one, he showed me how to set up and get into an inverted flat spin, and get out of it....successfully...

Racerx said:
That's a different kind of spin class.
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:lol::lol: Noted, and corrected. The aerobics teacher was a different and interesting story. Especially after her husband informed me she was married..... class over.!!
 
As a data point
When I did all my training back in the 1990's, the closest aerobatic instruction I know about was good hour or more away by car....so not that far but not all that convenient either.
Still...when I learned about him, I set my mind and FULLY intended to go get some upset training as soon as I finished my instrument rating
well....I don't remember exactly why but <insert lame excuse here>, life got in the way and I never did it.

Seems to me it's a great idea that everyone should do BUT it would only be a few hours with each student at most and I can hardly imagine a place where there would be enough pilots/students to make it a full time thing....
 
There are some instructors that have built successful full-time businesses focused on aerobatic training. But they tend to have a marketing edge that draws customers to them, like being Patty Wagstaff.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Are you talking about a limited time offering or something continuous?
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Good point - they were time limted classes.

I wouldn't want to build an entire business around that, but if you make it part of your regular offerings.
 
Zeldman said:
For one, he showed me how to set up and get into an inverted flat spin, and get out of it....successfully...




:lol::lol: Noted, and corrected. The aerobics teacher was a different and interesting story. Especially after her husband informed me she was married..... class over.!!
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Was. Past tense. Spin on.
 
Ed Haywood said:
There are some instructors that have built successful full-time businesses focused on aerobatic training. But they tend to have a marketing edge that draws customers to them, like being Patty Wagstaff.
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See, that's the thing, to me. The OP is still a student pilot, so while I appreciate the concept of "future goals", I'd say that someone who wants to be an aerobatics instructor really needs to first want to be a competitive aerobatics pilot first, and enjoy some level of success at it. To me, in this area of instruction, reputation is critical. We're talking flying with some elevated risk here. I might go take an aerobatics class with Sean Tucker or Patty Wagstaff, but I'm not likely to take an aerobatics class from some unknown CFI who just decided to buy a Decathlon and hang out an aerobatics "shingle". I have to think that "reputation" in this niche would be really hard to establish without some pretty solid competition results. After all, how do you get your first customer if nobody's ever heard of you? I'd think it would be much more difficult than for a CFI teaching "normal" stuff.
 
Do not fret! With the advent of social media these days i guess it would go something like this:
1)Get on boobtube, make a fancy looking channel logo
2) appropriate some .mil jargon,
3) film yourself poorly doing loops to music in 4K Hd
4) profit.
:D
 
RussR said:
See, that's the thing, to me. The OP is still a student pilot, so while I appreciate the concept of "future goals", I'd say that someone who wants to be an aerobatics instructor really needs to first want to be a competitive aerobatics pilot first, and enjoy some level of success at it. To me, in this area of instruction, reputation is critical. We're talking flying with some elevated risk here. I might go take an aerobatics class with Sean Tucker or Patty Wagstaff, but I'm not likely to take an aerobatics class from some unknown CFI who just decided to buy a Decathlon and hang out an aerobatics "shingle". I have to think that "reputation" in this niche would be really hard to establish without some pretty solid competition results. After all, how do you get your first customer if nobody's ever heard of you? I'd think it would be much more difficult than for a CFI teaching "normal" stuff.
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right! I skimmed it too fast and jumped to an assumption...benefit of the doubt I suppose....that maybe the OP had extensive aerobatic background.... current military maybe without much civilian awareness....
but yeah, probably just an aspiring student
either way Aeron360....keep dreaming and reaching. good on you for thinking ahead.
 
RussR said:
See, that's the thing, to me. The OP is still a student pilot, so while I appreciate the concept of "future goals", I'd say that someone who wants to be an aerobatics instructor really needs to first want to be a competitive aerobatics pilot first, and enjoy some level of success at it. To me, in this area of instruction, reputation is critical. We're talking flying with some elevated risk here. I might go take an aerobatics class with Sean Tucker or Patty Wagstaff, but I'm not likely to take an aerobatics class from some unknown CFI who just decided to buy a Decathlon and hang out an aerobatics "shingle". I have to think that "reputation" in this niche would be really hard to establish without some pretty solid competition results. After all, how do you get your first customer if nobody's ever heard of you? I'd think it would be much more difficult than for a CFI teaching "normal" stuff.
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Looking at it in different perspective helps - I see what you're saying here. Thanks for the advice!
 
Brad W said:
right! I skimmed it too fast and jumped to an assumption...benefit of the doubt I suppose....that maybe the OP had extensive aerobatic background.... current military maybe without much civilian awareness....
but yeah, probably just an aspiring student
either way Aeron360....keep dreaming and reaching. good on you for thinking ahead.
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You're right about the aerobatic background. Current military - no. I'm just an aspiring student looking for input/advice from the experienced guys:)
 
I met a guy that washed airplanes for extra cash.

He did the top for free, but charged out the wazoo for the bottom and interior....

He was actually busy on weekends, and paid for his flight training through CFII that way.
 
Aeron360 said:
I'm thinking about getting my CFI and teaching aerobatics. I hear that aerobatic CFI's get paid a lot. I'm not necessarily as interested in the pay - I more interested in the amount of demand for an aerobatic CFI. I live in the Tyler Tx area - and there are few if any aerobatic CFI's that offer instruction close to my area. There's plenty of freelance CFI's who teach for private pilots licensing but no aerobatic CFI's. In going that route, regardless of where you live, what would you say that demand for aerobatic training is? And when I say aerobatic, I primarily mean stall/spin endorsements, tailwheel and unusual attitude/upset recovery training, and some intro aerobatics. More specifically, what is the amount of demand for these type endorsements/training?
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Not necessarily high pay. But I do know of a CFI who had a business going. Not an aerobatic competitor, but there where a lot of people coming to him for those type endorsements. Most of the demand was from pilots with several hundred hours. With exceptions to two pilots to two student pilots. However, that kind of training won't bring enough, most people have a second profession.
 
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