What is the best way to go about getting started with a complete glass panel upgrade?

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CherokeeGirl

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CherokeeGirl
First let's imagine that money is no object (it is, but let's take that out of the equation for a moment, if we can).

I have an old Cherokee 6/300 with hardly anything new from when it was first built. There is an old ADS-B out, but that's about it, I think.

Some of the things I'd like to do are:
  • I'd like to relocate the switches from the left side to the center so panel so they're easier for either pilot to access
  • I'd like to use PS Engineering's PMS450B audio panel
  • I'd like to have 2x Skyview HDX displays, one for each pilot
  • I'd like to have GPS and auto pilot in the center so each pilot can easily access it
  • I'd like to have the EGT for each cylinder measured for optimum performance
What else am I missing on the panel? What else am I missing internally that will need to be upgraded to go full glass?


PS: Additionally, the windows on the plane is old and there are some cracks. Should I go with a thicker replacement? How about colored? I'd definitely like to get the UV protection. Finally, I'd like to get the cabin redone. That means carpet, side paneling (sides and to) and seats redone.
 
Bonanza. Just kidding.

One other suggestion - if you plan on using this for instrument flight, and you can't get charts/plates on your certified displays, leave an open empty spot large enough so you can put a tablet to display these in your field of vision/part of your scan without having to look down, turn your head, etc...
 
You should find a good avionics shop and talk to them. What part of the country are you in?
 
If money is no object (although you did qualify that it is), there's certainly no harm in putting whatever your heart desires into an airplane. However, since money IS an object, my experience has been that one doesn't really have any idea what you need in an airplane until you've flown it enough to start missing specific capabilities. I could be wrong, but based upon your questions I'm assuming you're relatively new to aircraft and piloting. ADSB-out has really only been around for a few years for GA, so an "old" ADSB-Out device isn't really that old... I wouldn't worry about that at all right now. Yes, put in new windows if there are cracks... that will be necessary at your annual anyway, and it's easy and cheap to do, at least as cheap as anything aviation-related is. I replaced my windshields recently w/ lightly smoked versions, and I love them. Cost about $320 for the pair, and I did the work w/ my A&P. Redoing the cabin isn't really a major expense either, if you do it yourself. I did mine for a couple hundred bucks, but I did it from scratch... constructed the templates for the panels, sewed all the upholstery from patterns I made myself, cut my own carpet and insulation, etc.. a ton of work, but not really all that difficult and very satisfying. Took a few weeks. Alternately, airtexinteriors.com sells good quality stuff at reasonable prices, and you could just buy a interior and install it. It will still take a few very long days.

Re/ the panel.. moving stuff around and avionic work in general is very time consuming and uncomfortable. Therefore, it's expensive to have done, and rightfully so. If the airplane is flyable the way it is, FLY it. A lot. Start your wish list when you truly have an idea of what you're missing. When I started flying, I was sure I wanted a Cherokee 6. My plane partner (at the time) told me I didn't, but wouldn't tell my why. After flying for a while, I learned why on my own. It's a great airplane... it's not that... it's just that the routine operating expenses and extra load capabilities don't fit my flying, but I didn't know that (or couldn't realize it) until I'd done more flying.

Fix the cracked windows. Update the interior if you can't stand to sit in the airplane the way it is. Fly. Save up a LOT of money if you want to put in your dream panel. If you're already wealthy with a lot of cash on hand, no reason not to go ahead and have a good avionics shop create your dream panel now, but I don't see a reason to at this point, unless I'm misreading the amount of experience you have.
 
The upgrade can be taken using a strategic approach - 80/20 rule.

The audio panel is the heart of the entire system, it connects to nearly everything. The clarity of PSE-450B will shock you coming off a KMA-24/28 or the like. By shocking, I mean listening to vacuum tube AM radio in 1930's compared to hi-def streaming today. This is not hyperbole.

For a glass panel, consider starting with what would be your future back-up device to get some EFIS capability. Many are installing G5's or GI-275 and later completing the panel with a G3X - just an example.

My own journey for an older steam gauge/King stack with GTN-430 was:
  • Replace King KT-76 transponder with GTX-345
  • Kept KX-155 radio with glide slope
  • Sent G430 to Garmin for WAAS upgrade. Unit came back like new in the box.
  • Replaced ELT with 406mhz unit
  • Replaced KMA-24 with Telex 2 place intercom with PSE-450A for all four seats
  • Added FlightStream 210 to 1 button up/download flight pans to Foreflight/430W. Also puts traffic & weather to ForeFlight, plus AHRS to ForeFlight to drive synthetic vision.
The whole set-up was installed for $14,500 plus $1050 for PS210 all installed 3 years ago.

I'm so happy with Foreflight on an iPad mounted on the yoke which is integrated with the 430W and GTX-345, I've forgone ambitions to add an EFIS.

Fast forward to today, I'd take the same route except likely install a G375 GPS/transponder in lieu of the 430W upgrade.

Here's a link to pictures http://welch.com/n46pg/2017/03/03/ads-b-and-other-avionics-upgrades/
 
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Sell it and buy one with the glass already installed. Or sell it and buy an experimental, glass is cheap in those. Other than that be prepared to turn a large fortune into a small one.
 
All Cherokee Six 300's are old! Hell, 90% of GA aircraft are old!

Are you looking for a number or just a hardware list? I believe to satisfy the Dynon HDX stc to go full glass you also need the D-10a installed as well. The HDX can be wired as your engine monitor. If you're having 2- 10" hdx id have the co-pilot hdx wired for the engine monitor. Unless you want more clarity and less clutter on the screen then get a stand alone JPI.

Seek out flying monkey on here and check out his vids on youtube and subscribe. His day job definitely shows up in his vids. He did everything you're wanting, interior and Dynon panel.

Dynon's A/P is not certified for the PA32 yet. That's my dad's hang up with his Six. Tru track was sold to Bendix and it doesn't sound like things are the same.

My dad had a good rapport with his a/p and was able to do the Airtex interior under his watch which saved a ton. He also put the thicker tinted glass in just before it was sent off for paint.

If you're looking for a number on the panel, take your hardware cost and double it to get a ballpark number for labor.

Talk to DYNON if you're thinking of the HDX. They will set up a free sales consult for the panel upgrade. Awesome people to talk to and they'll tell you what you need and what can and can't be done. Autopilot and switch location is the absolute least of your problems if you're tackling a full glass panel upgrade
 
Racerx said:
All Cherokee Six 300's are old! Hell, 90% of GA aircraft are old!

Are you looking for a number or just a hardware list? I believe to satisfy the Dynon HDX stc to go full glass you also need the D-10a installed as well. The HDX can be wired as your engine monitor. If you're having 2- 10" hdx id have the co-pilot hdx wired for the engine monitor. Unless you want more clarity and less clutter on the screen then get a stand alone JPI.

Seek out flying monkey on here and check out his vids on youtube and subscribe. His day job definitely shows up in his vids. He did everything you're wanting, interior and Dynon panel.

Dynon's A/P is not certified for the PA32 yet. That's my dad's hang up with his Six. Tru track was sold to Bendix and it doesn't sound like things are the same.

My dad had a good rapport with his a/p and was able to do the Airtex interior under his watch which saved a ton. He also put the thicker tinted glass in just before it was sent off for paint.

If you're looking for a number on the panel, take your hardware cost and double it to get a ballpark number for labor.

Talk to DYNON if you're thinking of the HDX. They will set up a free sales consult for the panel upgrade. Awesome people to talk to and they'll tell you what you need and what can and can't be done. Autopilot and switch location is the absolute least of your problems if you're tackling a full glass panel upgrade
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yes the d10a is required even with a 2 screen system. there is no wiring the screen for the engine monitor. the engine box is on the network and can be put on anyscreen in a bunch of different combinations that are completely changeable at any time. its a personal thing but I prefer the flight instruments and engine gauges on the pilot side in a 80/20 screen

Another thing to keep i mind is that the EFIS systems ,both D and G will only talk digital, they will not work with analog radios. unless you install a digital radio you will be stuck with the old nav heads for ILS/VOR. the best solution for that is a NAV/COMM/GPS box. IE 650/750 which will drive the HSI in the EFIS for both GPS and VOR/ILS another option is 355 and a 255 nav/com.
 
NordicDave said:
The upgrade can be taken using a strategic approach - 80/20 rule.

The audio panel is the heart of the entire system, it connects to nearly everything. The clarity of PSE-450B will shock you coming off a KMA-24/28 or the like. By shocking, I mean listening to vacuum tube AM radio in 1930's compared to hi-def streaming today. This is not hyperbole.

For a glass panel, consider starting with what would be your future back-up device to get some EFIS capability. Many are installing G5's or GI-275 and later completing the panel with a G3X - just an example.

My own journey for an older steam gauge/King stack with GTN-430 was:
  • Replace King KT-76 transponder with GTX-345
  • Kept KX-155 radio with glide slope
  • Sent G430 to Garmin for WAAS upgrade. Unit came back like new in the box.
  • Replaced ELT with 406mhz unit
  • Replaced KMA-24 with Telex 2 place intercom with PSE-450A for all four seats
  • Added FlightStream 210 to 1 button up/download flight pans to Foreflight/430W. Also puts traffic & weather to ForeFlight, plus AHRS to ForeFlight to drive synthetic vision.
The whole set-up was installed for $14,500 plus $1050 for PS210 all installed 3 years ago.

I'm so happy with Foreflight on an iPad mounted on the yoke which is integrated with the 430W and GTX-345, I've forgone ambitions to add an EFIS.

Fast forward to today, I'd take the same route except likely install a G375 GPS/transponder in lieu of the 430W upgrade.

Here's a link to pictures http://welch.com/n46pg/2017/03/03/ads-b-and-other-avionics-upgrades/
Click to expand...
Dave -

Nice write up and details here and on your web page! A few questions:

The PSE model 7000 series is supposed to be (close to) plug and play from the kma24 (except intercom). Why did you choose to do the full rewire for the 450? Were your wires in bad shape? Or you just wanted the additional features on the 450?

Did you do anything else to your audio that could explain the jump in clarity - wires, antennae, cables? Or you feel its completely due to the new 450?

Care to expand on your comment about choosing the 375 over the 430 if you had to do it again. Is that a transponder comment or limitations on the 430w, or no need for 2 vhf nav units, or? What would you do for a comm 2?

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 
CRQFlier said:
Dave -

Nice write up and details here and on your web page! A few questions:

The PSE model 7000 series is supposed to be (close to) plug and play from the kma24 (except intercom). Why did you choose to do the full rewire for the 450? Were your wires in bad shape? Or you just wanted the additional features on the 450?

Did you do anything else to your audio that could explain the jump in clarity - wires, antennae, cables? Or you feel its completely due to the new 450?

Care to expand on your comment about choosing the 375 over the 430 if you had to do it again. Is that a transponder comment or limitations on the 430w, or no need for 2 vhf nav units, or? What would you do for a comm 2?

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Concerning the audio panel, in my case I needed to rewire everything between the seat jacks to the audio panel to eliminate the old telex intercom. For me it was really important to have clarity of audio and the 450A which is now the 450B is simply stunning. In my case I’ve configured the 450A for Comm 1 imaging in the front-center and Comm 2 imaging from slightly behind to my right side. A pilot can actually steer and turn the sound on a 360° circle since the unit works in stereo mode. It’s much easier for the brain to ignore ATIS/ASOS on Com2 while simultaneously needing to listen to ATC on COM1. An added bonus that I’ve really come to appreciate, are the context sensitive menu keys for the user interface. While in flight you can actually dig deep into the capability of the unit without a cheat sheet and lots of crazy multi-button pushers.

With regards to a new GPS, it would kind of comedown to how rich I was feeling. A large format like a GTN-750 or IFD-540 is a first choice, with the 650/440 as an alternate. Having a good KX-155 with GS, I’d would have strongly considered combining the cost of an ADSB Transponder with the GPS by getting the GNX-375. While keeping the KX-155 and adding a GNC-255A for primary Nav/Com. I really like the freshly upgraded 430 to 430W, and have zero complains regarding the 430W. Easy to see why so any loved this unit and flew with it.

I look at the cost of labor and realized the cost to install the audio panel was the heart of the whole stack. In my case is was well worth the extra acquisition cost of the 450A for the years of modern service it would provide, plus PS Engineering keeps upgrading the unit and the form factor and wiring in place has a future.
 
Thanks @NordicDave. I need to have my wiring checked out. If its "ok" ill probably do the 7000 audio panel to save on install (also coming from a kma24). Otherwise, you've got me sold on the 450. On the other stuff I need to decide whether to do it all at once of stair step. The moment I add GPS I'm in for a big jump (rewire, panel layout change, etc ).

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 
Get a good shop with recommendations from previous customers, check out their work and above all bring plenty of money.
 
CherokeeGirl said:
First let's imagine that money is no object (it is, but let's take that out of the equation for a moment, if we can).

I have an old Cherokee 6/300 with hardly anything new from when it was first built. There is an old ADS-B out, but that's about it, I think.

Some of the things I'd like to do are:
  • I'd like to relocate the switches from the left side to the center so panel so they're easier for either pilot to access
  • I'd like to use PS Engineering's PMS450B audio panel
  • I'd like to have 2x Skyview HDX displays, one for each pilot
  • I'd like to have GPS and auto pilot in the center so each pilot can easily access it
  • I'd like to have the EGT for each cylinder measured for optimum performance
What else am I missing on the panel? What else am I missing internally that will need to be upgraded to go full glass?


PS: Additionally, the windows on the plane is old and there are some cracks. Should I go with a thicker replacement? How about colored? I'd definitely like to get the UV protection. Finally, I'd like to get the cabin redone. That means carpet, side paneling (sides and to) and seats redone.
Click to expand...



The Dynon HDX system is a great way to go. I'm not sure if the Autopilot will be certified by the end of 2021 or not. It's got great flexibility, you can choose which display to have the engine monitoring on etc its highly configurable. You CAN have Airport charts as well as IFR Plates/charts displayed on the screen if you buy the cheap seattle avionics subscription. You get great traffic/weather displayed on the displays as well. If money is no object then I would look at doing an Avidyne IFD GPS in the radio stack- this will integrate great with the Dynon HDX and will be great for all Instrument approaches. They are $11,000-14,000 for the models people generally buy. If thats a bit of a stretch, you can save a bit of money for now by buying an SL30 or Garmin GNC255 as a stack radio/ nav radio- these will integrate with the Dynon HDX and display the Nav indications on the display and you can have these frequencies displayed and tuned from the HDX screen. That way you don't have any 3 1/8" holes cut in the new instrument panel if you kept an old King 155 or something
The Dynon Engine monitoring system gives all cylinder EGT/CHT as well as Px's and Fuel Flow and has a good 'lean assist' feature to help you find the optimum lean point.

The TruTrak autopilot caaaaaan be used with the Dynon system but its not official and doesn't have the capability that the Dynon one will as well as its more expensive.
I would definitely go with Dynon/Avidyne rather than a G3x setup for example, it does save some money and you get 99% of the same capability
Attached a pic of the install we did on a Cherokee 140 :) this customer kept a kx155 nav/com as a backup, so we had to keep a CDI, so in the future when I replace the nav/com to a new digital unit there will be a big hole in the new instrument panel... The RH side has a Guardian avionics iPad pro flush mount
IMG_7709.jpg
 
Calum Brown said:
The Dynon HDX system is a great way to go. I'm not sure if the Autopilot will be certified by the end of 2021 or not. It's got great flexibility, you can choose which display to have the engine monitoring on etc its highly configurable. You CAN have Airport charts as well as IFR Plates/charts displayed on the screen if you buy the cheap seattle avionics subscription. You get great traffic/weather displayed on the displays as well. If money is no object then I would look at doing an Avidyne IFD GPS in the radio stack- this will integrate great with the Dynon HDX and will be great for all Instrument approaches. They are $11,000-14,000 for the models people generally buy. If thats a bit of a stretch, you can save a bit of money for now by buying an SL30 or Garmin GNC255 as a stack radio/ nav radio- these will integrate with the Dynon HDX and display the Nav indications on the display and you can have these frequencies displayed and tuned from the HDX screen. That way you don't have any 3 1/8" holes cut in the new instrument panel if you kept an old King 155 or something
The Dynon Engine monitoring system gives all cylinder EGT/CHT as well as Px's and Fuel Flow and has a good 'lean assist' feature to help you find the optimum lean point.

The TruTrak autopilot caaaaaan be used with the Dynon system but its not official and doesn't have the capability that the Dynon one will as well as its more expensive.
I would definitely go with Dynon/Avidyne rather than a G3x setup for example, it does save some money and you get 99% of the same capability
Attached a pic of the install we did on a Cherokee 140 :) this customer kept a kx155 nav/com as a backup, so we had to keep a CDI, so in the future when I replace the nav/com to a new digital unit there will be a big hole in the new instrument panel... The RH side has a Guardian avionics iPad pro flush mount
View attachment 90596
Click to expand...
Ok, that's just......cruel.....
 
MuseChaser said:
Ok, that's just......cruel.....
Click to expand...

Too tempting? haha
The equipment was just under $34,000 for the HDX system, ADSB in and out, Engine monitoring system, Avidyne IFD540 plus new instrument panel; then about $11,000 in labor. Pre-wired for the autopilot as well, so when thats certified it should only be about 20 hours to install the rest of the AP stuff
 
Calum Brown said:
Too tempting? haha
The equipment was just under $34,000 for the HDX system, ADSB in and out, Engine monitoring system, Avidyne IFD540 plus new instrument panel; then about $11,000 in labor. Pre-wired for the autopilot as well, so when thats certified it should only be about 20 hours to install the rest of the AP stuff
Click to expand...
Yeah...but.....I've got, like, $25k in my pa28-140....and I love her... but ..well.......I wish I could love her THAT much..,
 
MuseChaser said:
Yeah...but.....I've got, like, $25k in my pa28-140....and I love her... but ..well.......I wish I could love her THAT much..,
Click to expand...

I get that, this particular 140 now has $60k into it haha and the autopilot and audio panel still have to get done! This kind of install is probably better invested into a 180 or 235 to ensure you get your money back out of it
 
Calum Brown said:
I get that, this particular 140 now has $60k into it haha and the autopilot and audio panel still have to get done! This kind of install is probably better invested into a 180 or 235 to ensure you get your money back out of it
Click to expand...
Not finding fault at all...beautiful panel, and the 140 is a great airplane. It took me over a year to come to terms with it, but I think I'm about to spend another $10k on her for two G5s and a GPS175. Self install w/ oversight. Still don't really expect to get my money back.
 
MuseChaser said:
Not finding fault at all...beautiful panel, and the 140 is a great airplane. It took me over a year to come to terms with it, but I think I'm about to spend another $10k on her for two G5s and a GPS175. Self install w/ oversight. Still don't really expect to get my money back.
Click to expand...

Personally I’d go with an Aspen E5 instead of two G5’s, you get a little more screen space and if you get the ‘top Mount RSM’ then down the line it will be super easy to upgrade it to the full Pro Max version.
I’ve used the GPS175 a little in a couple installs we’ve done, the resolution of the display is nice but it’s just so small... finger swipes all over the place in even the smallest of bumps. Having said that there’s nothing else in that price point, even the GPS only Avidyne (the IFD 410) is a bit more pricey although it’s got a bigger screen and has knobs and buttons as well as the touchscreen. But I would def look at the E5 rather than the twin G5’s- you would have to buy the magnetometer, OAT probe kit and the Arinc unit, which I think would add up to a little more than an E5 of which you may be able to negotiate a free OAT/HSI unlock card and you don’t need a separate box to interface to a gps navigator. Quite possible an easier install
 
CherokeeGirl said:
First let's imagine that money is no object (it is, but let's take that out of the equation for a moment, if we can).

I have an old Cherokee 6/300 with hardly anything new from when it was first built. There is an old ADS-B out, but that's about it, I think.

Some of the things I'd like to do are:
  • I'd like to relocate the switches from the left side to the center so panel so they're easier for either pilot to access
  • I'd like to use PS Engineering's PMS450B audio panel
  • I'd like to have 2x Skyview HDX displays, one for each pilot
  • I'd like to have GPS and auto pilot in the center so each pilot can easily access it
  • I'd like to have the EGT for each cylinder measured for optimum performance
What else am I missing on the panel? What else am I missing internally that will need to be upgraded to go full glass?


PS: Additionally, the windows on the plane is old and there are some cracks. Should I go with a thicker replacement? How about colored? I'd definitely like to get the UV protection. Finally, I'd like to get the cabin redone. That means carpet, side paneling (sides and to) and seats redone.
Click to expand...

As we all know the upgrade process can sometimes be overwhelming with the number of options you have and things you have to consider. Please don't hesitate to reach out to our team at sales@avidyne.com or you can contact me directly at bkahl@avidyne.com. We'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have as well as point you to a great shop in your area unless you're already working with a specific dealer.

Best regards,

Bryan Kahl
Senior Director of Sales & Customer Experience
E: bkahl@avidyne.com
 
Calum Brown said:
The Dynon HDX system is a great way to go. I'm not sure if the Autopilot will be certified by the end of 2021 or not. It's got great flexibility, you can choose which display to have the engine monitoring on etc its highly configurable. You CAN have Airport charts as well as IFR Plates/charts displayed on the screen if you buy the cheap seattle avionics subscription. You get great traffic/weather displayed on the displays as well. If money is no object then I would look at doing an Avidyne IFD GPS in the radio stack- this will integrate great with the Dynon HDX and will be great for all Instrument approaches. They are $11,000-14,000 for the models people generally buy. If thats a bit of a stretch, you can save a bit of money for now by buying an SL30 or Garmin GNC255 as a stack radio/ nav radio- these will integrate with the Dynon HDX and display the Nav indications on the display and you can have these frequencies displayed and tuned from the HDX screen. That way you don't have any 3 1/8" holes cut in the new instrument panel if you kept an old King 155 or something
The Dynon Engine monitoring system gives all cylinder EGT/CHT as well as Px's and Fuel Flow and has a good 'lean assist' feature to help you find the optimum lean point.

The TruTrak autopilot caaaaaan be used with the Dynon system but its not official and doesn't have the capability that the Dynon one will as well as its more expensive.
I would definitely go with Dynon/Avidyne rather than a G3x setup for example, it does save some money and you get 99% of the same capability
Attached a pic of the install we did on a Cherokee 140 :) this customer kept a kx155 nav/com as a backup, so we had to keep a CDI, so in the future when I replace the nav/com to a new digital unit there will be a big hole in the new instrument panel... The RH side has a Guardian avionics iPad pro flush mount
View attachment 90596
Click to expand...

I never understand why someone would do such an extensive panel upgrade, and keep an ancient audio panel like that KMA 24.
 
If autopilot is important, then I would start with it and work backwards to what you’ll need to support it.
I would also not use any unofficial “yeah, it will work” with a certified airplane. I also would NOT bet large amount of money assuming an avionics company will meet its proposed schedule.
 
Wow! Thanks for all the detailed replies. I understand this will not be cheap, nor will I recoup the cost I'll put into it, but I love my Cherokee and would like to make it safer, more fun to fly, and allow me to do my IFR training in it (which currently isn't possible).

I think I will stick with 2 10" Dynon SkyView HDX, PS Engineering PMA-450B (450A looks to be outmoded), Avidyne GPS, and will take the recommendation for the Dynon autopilot (if it's certified ).

- - -

There are a couple things that I've having trouble dealing with. The first one is trying to get an avionics shop to get back to me. I guess business is good if me wanting to spend $50-100k in upgrades isn't worth getting my business.

The other thing is trying to understand all the components needed, which ones work and don't work well together, and which ones I no longer need. For example, I think if I have the Dynon Skyview HDX that it includes engine monitoring so I won't need a separate setup—like the JPI EDM 900—but I don't know that for sure.

Additionally, I'm still a bit confused by the radios and comms. If I get an Avidyne IFD540 FMS/GPS Navigator does that the negate the need for some radio HW on the panel, or will it just be an alter vie display.

Finally, if I have two full featured devices like 10" SkyView HDXs do I also need to have a Dynon EFIS-D10A for my flight instruments as a backup?
 
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CherokeeGirl said:
Wow! Thanks for all the detailed replies. I understand this will not be cheap, nor will I recoup the cost I'll put into it, but I love my Cherokee and would like to make it safer, more fun to fly, and allow me to do my IFR training in it (which currently isn't possible).

I think I will stick with 2 10" Dynon SkyView HDX, PS Engineering PMA-450B (450A looks to be outmoded), Avidyne GPS, and will take the recommendation for the Dynon autopilot.

- - -

There are a couple things that I've having trouble dealing with. The first one is trying to get an avionics shop to get back to me. I guess business is good if me wanting to spend $50-100k in upgrades isn't worth getting my business.

The other thing is trying to understand all the components needed, which ones work and don't work well together, and which ones I no longer need. For example, I think if I have the Dynon Skyview HDX that it includes engine monitoring so I won't need a separate setup—like the JPI EDM 900—but I don't know that for sure.

Additionally, I'm still a bit confused by the radios and comms. If I get an Avidyne IFD540 FMS/GPS Navigator does that the negate the need for some radio HW on the panel, or will it just be an alter vie display.

Finally, if I have two full featured devices like 10" SkyView HDXs do I also need to have a Dynon EFIS-D10A for my flight instruments as a backup?
Click to expand...
Shops are busy. But I got some rough numbers to put in a Garmin system pretty easily so I'm not sure who you've been talking to if it's a local shop or one of the bigger shops. Local shop might have a difficult time getting numbers as they probably don't have the sales staff someone like sarasota has. Talk to Dynon or Avidyne directly. Email them. They'll get back to you as far as hardware compatibility. They'll direct you to a shop closest to you. No clue where your located so it's tough to give a referral. You definitely want someone who's been through the rodeo before. Calum Brown seems to be willing to help and he's obviously knowledgeable.

Side note Calum...got the same six-300 that needs some Dynon and avidyne TLC. But can wait until the Dynon AP is certified. Is the wait going to be worth it? They're almost there with the PA-34, which is essentially the same fuselage as the PA-32 but that's not on the radar yet. Hey Dynon, need a donor plane? I also have the question about Dynon engine monitoring. I value clarity on the pfd ( read less cluttered) so I may go a JPI standalone. But then again with a second HDX maybe it wouldn't be as bad I'm thinking.
 
CherokeeGirl said:
There are a couple things that I've having trouble dealing with. The first one is trying to get an avionics shop to get back to me. I guess business is good if me wanting to spend $50-100k in upgrades isn't worth getting my business.
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Sadly, most avionics shops will not respond if it is not Garmin products. Especially the Garmin Dealers. But hey, that's what most people know and they are known for their reliability.

Going to the Dynon subject, we are installing mostly what Dynon refers to as the "Well Equipped" package. This includes one 10" screen, all core components, engine monitor, EFIS D10A, ADS-B in/out, Dynon transponder, and the IFR connectivity kit. This package coupled with an Avidyne IFD series works wonderfully! At the time of writing this, the Well Equipped package comes out to just below $19k. Our shop will usually throw in a PS Engineering PMA8000BT or similar audio panel for free plus labor for a huge thank you. If you add in the Avidyne, count on an increase of $10-12K on your costs. Labor can range anywhere from 100 to 150 installation hours. We are in Southern California so our labor rates are a bit more pricey than say the east coast or central USA, but expect anywhere from $85 - $135 for labor per hour. That should give you a rough estimate on what the Dynon system would cost.

For additional equipment, you can go on Dynon Certified website and view the Price List. Hopefully you get the answers you were looking for!
 
Money WILL become an object real quick. The main thing is to have a plan for what capability you want, and have a plan to stage it and make sure your avionics choices will talk to each other well. And consider plans for future replacement upgrades. It can be messy trying to balance compatibility, staging, and cost. By the time you get the first round of stuff all installed, the oldest stuff starts to near replacement age.

For IFR operation, this was my list of capabilities and choices, not all installed at the same time, in order of installation or retention:
  • WAAS GPS/NAV/COM (GNS-430 and GI-106A; not-too-far-in-the-future replacement IFD-440)
  • Secondary NAV/COM (legacy Terra unit; near future replacement GNC-255 or similar, repurposing GI-106A)
  • Autopilot (STEC-20 single axis; future replacement Garmin GFC-500 or equivalent two-axis)
  • ADS-B in/out (Lynx NGT-9000; future replacement not yet planned)
  • Glass instruments (dual G5s; future replacement TBD) - this released the GI-106A for future repurposing.
  • Engine monitoring (TBD)
Even this was way expensive over a 10+ year period for a modest IFR aircraft, but it is very comfortable to fly in IMC.
 
Where are you located? Someone might be able to point you to a more responsive shop. If you are near FL - try Saint Aviation - @Jesse Saint posts here pretty often.
 
Thank you all for your help. It's been its own level of difficultly just learning about the options for new avionics and I've barely scratched the surface.

I've decided to go with the Garmin GTN 750. Since I want ADS-B In/Out the shop recommended I also get the GTX 345 Transponder. I'm not quite sure why the GTN 750 doesn't already include that functionality since it seems to have transponder capabilities, but I do see that Garmin's website does note that the pair allows for certain tasks, so I'm guessing the GTN 750 is only for Out.

One thing I'm curious about—and maybe this should require a new thread—is whether I can connect an iPad to the GTN 750 via the Garmin USB ports that will be attached to both update the GTN 750 databases and software, as well as have the ADS-B/FIS-B data pushed onto Foreflight on the iPad via the USB port…. or whether that will only work through the Garmin Flight Stream 510 card wirelessly?
 
1) GTN 750 does not provide any ADSB In or Out. GTN 750 does not have any transponder capabilities. It does provide WASS location data to the transponder so the transponder can ping out location for ADSB requirement.
2) You can link the I Pad to the Garmin 345 transponder to get in flight traffic and weather, which is the option IF you don't buy the FlightStream 510 (FS 510 allows you to connect to the GTN 750).
3) You link the I Pad to the GTN 750 to push your flight plan via Bluetooth (fairly sure it's Bluetooth and not wi fi) IF you also add/buy FlightStream 510.
4) You can only update the GTN 750 data base via a memory card in the memory card slot OR with Flight Stream 510 installed in the memory card slot, which lets you then connect the 510 to your tablet and then wirelessly update the 750 database.

Net Net - you can't upload flight plans and update databases through the USB port.
The only path to upload the flight plans would be the FlightStream 510
The two paths to update the database are 1) FS 510, or 2) manually insert a memory card with the updated database.

BTW Sounds like a fantastic upgrade! Cool thing is that these new things will work great with anything you add in the future (like a garmin autopilot, G5/G275, etc.)
 
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One other clarification, you can control certain Transponders with the GTN. Set a squawk code, IDENT and the like. That's where the confusion might have come from.
 
Keep the 2 sky view screens close to the left side... you will be glad you did. If the PIC switches to the right, you can easily transfer the critical airplane performance Data to the right screen... the sky view is flexible that way
 
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