What is a strong crosswind?

[orange]

I was flying on Saturday and the winds were 22018G21. We were landing on 19, so a 30 degree crosswind from the right @ 18 knots, gusting to 21.

This is the first windy day since I started flying with this CFI (my previous one quit to take an regional airline job). So far, winds have always been under 10 knots, and usually no more than 10, maybe 20 degrees of "crosswind".

So, I'm getting bounced around a little (not too much, but it's pretty windy) in the pattern, and on final I'm being pushed left of centerline. So I started to crab into the win, and he tells me that the nose should always be pointed down the runway centerline. What he doesn't tell me is that to compensate I need to drop the wing into the wind.

My previous CFI taught me to crab for crosswind landings, but this CFI doesn't like it, he prefers aileron into the wind and opposite rudder to keep the nose pointed down centerline. But I have never done it or even been shown it. So miscommunication there. But when we went up, the winds were under 10 knots, then it picked up a lot.

Anyways, my question is whether 30 degree crosswind at 18G21 is considered nothing, moderate, or high cross-wind? I'm in a Cherokee. I kept saying, "the wind is blowing me off center" and he kept saying "what wind? this is nothing".

 

[MichiPilot]

I've flown in 450kt crosswinds. Anyone who can't is terrible.

Signed,
POA posters

 

[eman1200]

I've flown in 450kt crosswinds. Anyone who can't is terrible.

Signed,
POA posters

MEH, I can do that in IMC, at night, under the hood, and with one engine out in a piper cherokee. but I don't like to brag about it.

 

[ScottM]

I've flown in 450kt crosswinds. Anyone who can't is terrible.

Signed,
POA posters

Phew I had a downdraft bigger than that and still maintained attitude in a mosquito within 3"

 

[Clark1961]

A 9 to 10 kt crosswind component is substantial for a student. It is good training.

Your aircraft has a demonstrated crosswind capability of 17 kts so the aircraft is quite capable. Note that the 17 kts isn't a limit and a Cherokee can handle more. You should be able to handle up to 17 kts by the time you are ready for your check ride.

Handling crosswinds within the demonstrated capability of the airframe is really just a matter of learning and practicing the technique and it sounds like your current CFI has a handle on it. It's unfortunate that the CFI is somewhat dismissive but some folks (me included) are just that way. At least I'm not a CFI putting a student in the position of having concerns about winds dismissed.

 

[James331]

Lol

I'd say that's moderate

I've always enjoyed a good crosswind, reminded you that you're actually flying the thing

 

[bobmrg]

When you have sufficient upwind aileron to stop the drift, and enough rudder to keep the airplane aligned with the runway, you are just fine. When you run out of rudder and can't keep the airplane parallel with the runway it is time to go somewhere else.

Bob Gardner

 

[bnt83]

Basically I only really pay attention to crosswind component when is gusting to 20 regardless of direction.

I'll launch and land in gusting to about 30-35 depending on crosswind components, obstacles on the airport, how much taxiing required for takeoff/landing, hangar door conditions (some look like a 10 knot wind will blow them off the hangar), but its not much fun.

 

[jordane93]

When you have sufficient upwind aileron to stop the drift, and enough rudder to keep the airplane aligned with the runway, you are just fine. When you run out of rudder and can't keep the airplane parallel with the runway it is time to go somewhere else.

Bob Gardner

Yep. Your scenario you had about a 6-7 kt crosswind which isn't too bad.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Depends on degree heading of the wind. A direct cross wind of 20 can really get ones attention in a taildragger. Of course there will be several John Wayne type replies stating this is nothing and they land in much higher winds as a matter of routine. ( which of course is bs)

 

[Jimmy cooper]

When you have sufficient upwind aileron to stop the drift, and enough rudder to keep the airplane aligned with the runway, you are just fine. When you run out of rudder and can't keep the airplane parallel with the runway it is time to go somewhere else.

Bob Gardner

Yes. This is probably too sensible.

 

[ja_user]

Don't forget to try it with a right crosswind if the left didn't work out (Direct crosswind only....)

 

[FastEddieB]

When you have sufficient upwind aileron to stop the drift, and enough rudder to keep the airplane aligned with the runway, you are just fine. When you run out of rudder and can't keep the airplane parallel with the runway it is time to go somewhere else.

Bob Gardner

All good points.

Let me add that the crosswind component can be reduced substantially by landing at an angle across the runway.

For instance, landing my Sky Arrow at Moriarty, NM with a howling quartering right crosswind, my landing roll looked a lot like this:

Oh, and landing on that taxiway right into the wind could have been a choice as well, though if things went wrong one might be looking at a "Careless and Reckless" catchall charge.

A glider pilot there said in really strong N winds they landed thusly:

Note the N/S runway under construction which hopefully has increased options there.

Anyway, one other point...

...the type of aircraft one is in makes a huge difference. I have to remind myself that crosswinds that would have been trivially easy in my Cirrus can be quite challenging in my Sky Arrow. I think lots of pilots "stepping up to Light Sport" get bit by this.

 

[Bob T]

For your situation, you follow the 30 degree line to where the arc for 18 knots would be. Then draw a line horizontally to find the headwind component and vertically to find the crosswind component. So that would result in about 16kt headwind and 9kt crosswind.

Picture from mountainflying.com

 

[timwinters]

All good points.

Let me add that the crosswind component can be reduced substantially by landing at an angle across the runway.

Beat me to it.

I learned to fly on a 150' wide runway. The crosswind component could be significantly reduced by nosing just a bit into the wind.

 

[CharlieTango]

My slippery light sport gives me more grief than all previous planes. When the crosswind is near 90° and variable I sometimes struggle. The crosswind snapping from a headwind to tailwind is what gets me.

Light and variable conditions can be challenging in my light sport as well.

 

[kyleb]

My rule of thumb is that if the crosswind component exceeds 1/3 of the aircraft's stall speed, that's significant. Maybe doable, but a genuine concern.

 

[cowman]

What is a strong crosswind?

One that, based on your most recent experience, you feel you might have trouble landing in.

Keep practicing, I don't know where you are in your training but it helps to get out in the worst crosswind conditions with a CFI there to help you and keep working that pattern until you find you're doing it with little or no comment/help. Then you'll find yourself out soloing or as a private pilot one day landing in conditions that you used to be afraid of and the airplane just gently touches down, you crank your ailerons into the wind and it's a non-event.

 

[CTLSi]

I was flying on Saturday and the winds were 22018G21. We were landing on 19, so a 30 degree crosswind from the right @ 18 knots, gusting to 21.

This is the first windy day since I started flying with this CFI (my previous one quit to take an regional airline job). So far, winds have always been under 10 knots, and usually no more than 10, maybe 20 degrees of "crosswind".

So, I'm getting bounced around a little (not too much, but it's pretty windy) in the pattern, and on final I'm being pushed left of centerline. So I started to crab into the win, and he tells me that the nose should always be pointed down the runway centerline. What he doesn't tell me is that to compensate I need to drop the wing into the wind.

My previous CFI taught me to crab for crosswind landings, but this CFI doesn't like it, he prefers aileron into the wind and opposite rudder to keep the nose pointed down centerline. But I have never done it or even been shown it. So miscommunication there. But when we went up, the winds were under 10 knots, then it picked up a lot.

Anyways, my question is whether 30 degree crosswind at 18G21 is considered nothing, moderate, or high cross-wind? I'm in a Cherokee. I kept saying, "the wind is blowing me off center" and he kept saying "what wind? this is nothing".

It's not the degree of xwind, its the amount of it. 18kts xwind is the limit for a lot of planes...

Crabbing or slipping on a xwind landing is one of the aviation fights that will never be solved. While training, you will train with whatever preference that CFI has...

 

[F01LA]

For your situation, you follow the 30 degree line to where the arc for 18 knots would be. Then draw a line horizontally to find the headwind component and vertically to find the crosswind component. So that would result in about 16kt headwind and 9kt crosswind.

Picture from mountainflying.com

That is nifty. Does anyone sell a metal version of this?

 

[zaitcev]

My slippery light sport gives me more grief than all previous planes. When the crosswind is near 90° and variable I sometimes struggle. The crosswind snapping from a headwind to tailwind is what gets me.

I found dealing with cross-wind in a Cherokee more difficult than in Remos GX (the only when I flew CT we did not have large enough cross-wind).

In Cherokee I cannot land properly in anything greater than its demonstrated 17 knots. It's basically as much rudder as it has. Anything more and I must plop it down in a crab. It's super annoying. Worse, Cherokee starts sinking alarmingly as I have to add rudder and the resulting slippage. At a certain point, transitioning to go-around becomes a major difficulty, because one MUST to go crab with neutral rudder (with a bit or right foot, of course), or else the 140 hp Cherokee WILL NOT climb at all. And you must do it while remaining on the centerline in case of sinking into a contact with runway. I was swearing bullets while doing it over at Edgewood/Sandia, with their random winds and narrow runway. Perhaps the 6500 ft elevation had some effect, too.

But in the "slippery" plastic Remos, it really is no problem to land in 20 knots crosswind component. It is much easier because it has a lot of rudder to spare. It allows deeper slips without creeping up to stall so much. It reacts to controls quicker, so you have a lot of lattitude dealing with shifty winds. Despite having 100 hp Rotax, a go-around transition is much easier due to its more natural handling.

Basically all PA28s suck at crosswinds and require the kick-out crab technique, like they do in jetliners. Or at least my 200 hours say so.

 

[Clark1961]

It's not the degree of xwind, its the amount of it. 18kts xwind is the limit for a lot of planes...

Some of our spam cans have a maximum crosswind limit. Most, nearly all, do not. What they have is a maximum demonstrated crosswind listed in the POH or AFM. I believe it is called a maximum demonstrated crosswind because of the way the certification regulations are/were written. I'm sure someone or several someones will correct me if I'm wrong about the reason.

The actual crosswind limit depends as much on the pilot as it does the aircraft. Example: a Cirrus is a wonderful crosswind aircraft but since I have zero time in one I wouldn't go out and try a 20 kt crosswind component just because someone said it could do it.

 

[cowman]

I fly an Archer which is basically a cherokee 180 that has a tapered wing... I have been told the hershey bar wing cherokees are not as good but I haven't flown one so I have no idea.

A technique that I use in the Archer if the crosswinds are bad is to only put in the first notch of flaps and plan to land at a higher speed.. say 75-80kts. The advantage of this is you have a lot more control authority and the wind doesn't shove you around so bad on short final. The downside is, it eats up a lot more runway. Definitely a no-go for shorter strips.

 

[bobmrg]

All good points.

Let me add that the crosswind component can be reduced substantially by landing at an angle across the runway.

For instance, landing my Sky Arrow at Moriarty, NM with a howling quartering right crosswind, my landing roll looked a lot like this:

Oh, and landing on that taxiway right into the wind could have been a choice as well, though if things went wrong one might be looking at a "Careless and Reckless" catchall charge.

A glider pilot there said in really strong N winds they landed thusly:

Note the N/S runway under construction which hopefully has increased options there.

Anyway, one other point...

...the type of aircraft one is in makes a huge difference. I have to remind myself that crosswinds that would have been trivially easy in my Cirrus can be quite challenging in my Sky Arrow. I think lots of pilots "stepping up to Light Sport" get bit by this.

Absolutely. I have done several of those "across the runway" landings. Wheels on the surface, as you rudder the plane back toward the centerline, centrifugal force tilts the wings into the wind. Works like a dream.

Bob

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

It's not the degree of xwind, its the amount of it. 18kts xwind is the limit for a lot of planes...

Crabbing or slipping on a xwind landing is one of the aviation fights that will never be solved. While training, you will train with whatever preference that CFI has...

 

[Matthew]

That is nifty. Does anyone sell a metal version of this?

My Jeppesen kneeboard/clipboard has it stamped on the front.
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/2244http://www.pilotshop.com/catalog/pspages/jeppVFRkneeboard.php?gclid=CLqM0sPm1MACFQto7AodgXgAcA

 

[Henning]

Anything where you have the rudder to the stop and stilly can't get the plane lined up. It varies depending on model.

 

[Clark1961]

That is nifty. Does anyone sell a metal version of this?

Vxwind = Vwind * cosine(alpha)

we all memorized trig tables in high school, right? (I knew the unit circle would come in handy some day)

 

[peerlesscowboy]

..........

Oh, and landing on that taxiway right into the wind could have been a choice as well, though if things went wrong one might be looking at a "Careless and Reckless" catchall charge.

Why would landing on that taxiway right into the wind be considered "careless and reckless"? It gives you twice the length as the option you described on the runway plus either option begins on the runway and ends on a taxiway
Assuming those parallel stripes on the runway are the thousand foot markers, the taxiway would give you approximately 500' of straight pavement, the arrow you've drawn at an angle across the runway is approximately 250'..... plus if you were unable to stop within the 500' on the taxiway a 30* turn would keep you on the pavement, OTOH if you were unable to stop within the 250' on the runway it'd take a turn of 45* to 60* to keep it on the pavement.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

.............................
Anyways, my question is whether 30 degree crosswind at 18G21 is considered nothing, moderate, or high cross-wind? I'm in a Cherokee. I kept saying, "the wind is blowing me off center" and he kept saying "what wind? this is nothing".

I'd call it moderate.

 

[alfadog]

Yes, moderate, especially for a student intimidated by moderate crosswinds. Personally, I prefer the combination method, dropping a wing on short final but you need to master both the crab and the slip first. Perhaps your CFI was just trying to get you to stop making excuses.

Not trying to be a dick, just sayin'.

 

[PPC1052]

That is nifty. Does anyone sell a metal version of this?

Just use the sine function on your smart phone. sine(wind angle) x windspeed=crosswind component.

 

[Texastaildragger]

Crabbing till you get closer to the runway then using cross control is my preferred method. Just FIGHT the urge to drop the wing when you feel that first wheel touchdown. Let it come down smoothly & gently. Don't be afraid of the wind. Fly and find your personal limits.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

The winds in Wichita today were 19027G32. It was mostly down the runway but that's getting up there for me in a GA twin.

 

[Geico266]

Basically I only really pay attention to crosswind component when is gusting to 20 regardless of direction.

I'll launch and land in gusting to about 30-35 depending on crosswind components, obstacles on the airport, how much taxiing required for takeoff/landing, hangar door conditions (some look like a 10 knot wind will blow them off the hangar), but its not much fun.

No wonder I rarely see you flying in Nebraska.

 

[Kaniki]

My slippery light sport gives me more grief than all previous planes. When the crosswind is near 90° and variable I sometimes struggle. The crosswind snapping from a headwind to tailwind is what gets me.

Light and variable conditions can be challenging in my light sport as well.

Well, you're also dealing with some really unpredictable high-mountain winds up there in Long Valley, too. It's never not windy there.

 

[kenjr]

Damn just noticed that the dude has been a member since July of this year and already has over 800 posts. Good lord. Someone needs to get a life.

 

[denverpilot]

The OP described a nice day to solo a student in Wyoming. Haha.

 

[kenjr]

I had what I later calculated a 13kt crosswind landing (gusts were the problem...they were up to 28kts) in Galveston last year. I realized then that was about as much 'fun' as I want to have landing my airplane. I fly a Cherokee 235...there seemed to be plenty of rudder left but I don't think I've concentrated that hard for 5 minutes on anything I've ever done in my life. I learned to fly in central Texas during the winter, spring and summer - mostly in mid-afternoon with a CFI who loved to ask the tower if I could land on the crosswind runway...so I'm definitely not afraid of a little xwind...

I agree with the one poster though who said they are fun - makes you remember that you are flying the damn thing.

 

[brian]]

What is Oklahoma? ...

Sorry - I thought this was a Jeopardy question ..