What if You’re Philosophically Opposed to AA?

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OneCharlieTango

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OneCharlieTango
The point of this post isn’t to probe the why’s, but to acknowledge that there are those with a strong philosophical dislike for AA. If one of them finds himself having to do the HIMS whatnot, is there an AMOC?
 
Yes, there are more secular recovery organizations.
americanaddictioncenters.org

Non 12-Step Rehabs Near You: Alternatives to AA and 12-Step Programs

Addiction treatment programs are diverse and there are plenty of alternative groups and therapies to 12-step programs. Learn more.
americanaddictioncenters.org americanaddictioncenters.org

Someone else will have to tell you which of the ones available in the patient’s area the FAA and HIMS program find acceptable
 
Yes, there are recognized alternatives. The AA ‘big book’ quotes “upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely hold no monopoly”. The HIMS program points airmen there as it is the most successful method for alcoholics to obtain and sustain long term sobriety.
 
Someone will have to provide the Cliffsnotes of this to me

Alcoholics Anonymous Effectiveness: Faith Meets Science - PMC

Research on the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is controversial and is subject to widely divergent interpretations. The goal of this paper is to provide a focused review of the literature on AA effectiveness that will allow readers to ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Someone will have to provide the Cliffsnotes of this to me

Alcoholics Anonymous Effectiveness: Faith Meets Science - PMC

Research on the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is controversial and is subject to widely divergent interpretations. The goal of this paper is to provide a focused review of the literature on AA effectiveness that will allow readers to ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Click to expand...

That study was a literature review which found strong evidence of AA’s effectiveness.

That’s as Cliffy as you can get. You might be able to pass a single question true/false quiz with it. Good luck. You’re welcome.
 
The best article I’ve found is from Stanford. Researchers conducted a meta study (they compiled other papers) and concluded AA was the most effective program. But even the study with the best rating for AA has it at only 60% effective at abstinence. Its significant to note the lead investigator was skeptical of AA when he started. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...ost-effective-path-to-alcohol-abstinence.html

That isn’t to say it’s the only choice. The best one is the one that works for you. If you’re going to AA without the associated religious beliefs, I suspect it’s far less effective. That it’s considered the best probably attracts those that aren’t a good fit, lowering the effectiveness percent.
 
Not all AA groups bring much of the religiosity to the table. My partner is an ex-Catholic atheist who was a part of both SMART and AA at the beginning of his sobriety journey. He sought out SMART specifically because of its lack of any religious connotations. Ultimately he found several (and now very actively helps run them) LGBT+ friendly AA meetings whose community worked better for him than the SMART meeting did. SMART was quite good in his mind, just the specific meetings and local community led him towards the AA meetings he settled on.

I would suggest for any atheist/non-religious person to try SMART but also look specifically for AA meetings that minimize or remove the religious aspect. They do exist, granted perhaps not in your area. Many meetings are now entirely online though. My partner has met people all around the world through this meeting he helps run as it is online. Many of the international and non-local members sought it out specifically because of the non-religious and LGBT friendly nature.

It does seem quite problematic to me that AA has a de-facto special status to the FAA and our legal system more broadly. Past posts on this forum from our resident experts have indicated that the path to certification has substantially less friction with AA than any other recovery program. Having de-facto preference for a program with explicitly religious themes is not appropriate IMO.
 
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At one time, AA was pretty much the only game in town. Back then, most people were religious, or professed to be. Times have changed, but in this as in many other things the FAA is very slow to change with the times.

There is no doubt that AA has helped many people quit drinking, but from what I've seen in many cases, they simply switch from one addiction (drinking) to another (AA). I've known a few people who quit drinking, but years later keep going to AA meetings five nights a week, to the detriment of their family life. Certainly better for their physical health, but for their mental health???

But there is no question that the faith component works for some, even without AA. 35 years ago my wife had a drinking problem that was becoming quite serious. At the time she was a lukewarm "Christmas and Easter" Catholic. A friend of hers pulled her into the fundamentalist fold and reading the Bible, and within a week she had quit drinking cold turkey and has remained sober ever since. No AA or anything like that. She did overdose on religion for awhile IMO (what did I say about exchanging one addiction for another?) but has since mellowed.
 
Dana said:
I've known a few people who quit drinking, but years later keep going to AA meetings five nights a week, to the detriment of their family life.
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My partner goes to 3 meetings a week and spends significant time as part of the leadership and area representative. While I’m obviously supportive, I’d be lying if it isn’t sometimes a strain on our relationship. He puts a ton of effort into those activities and relationships, including with his sponsees, which is great but sometimes leaves little time or energy for our relationship or home life. Infinitely better than when he was drinking, don’t get me wrong, but having an alcoholic as a partner isn’t always easy, even when they are reliably sober.
 
Don’t confuse religion with spirituality. Yes, AA is based on spiritual principles, not religion. I know of several atheists in local groups that do just fine in AA. And yes, there are AA meetings that are tailored for agnostic/atheist beliefs.
 
robin ardoin said:
Don’t confuse religion with spirituality. Yes, AA is based on spiritual principles, not religion. I know of several atheists in local groups that do just fine in AA. And yes, there are AA meetings that are tailored for agnostic/atheist beliefs.
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AA has implicit religious connotations based on the big book and its history and explicit spiritual connotations with respect to a higher power. Some atheists and agnostics are willing to overlook the spiritual connotations to the extent that the meetings they attend promote or recast them into a message appropriate to their beliefs, some are not. That’s totally fine, AA doesn’t have to be the only solution. Where it is problematic is that it has effectively special status in our legal and regulatory system.
 
bflynn said:
The best article I’ve found is from Stanford. Researchers conducted a meta study (they compiled other papers) and concluded AA was the most effective program. But even the study with the best rating for AA has it at only 60% effective at abstinence. Its significant to note the lead investigator was skeptical of AA when he started. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...ost-effective-path-to-alcohol-abstinence.html

That isn’t to say it’s the only choice. The best one is the one that works for you. If you’re going to AA without the associated religious beliefs, I suspect it’s far less effective. That it’s considered the best probably attracts those that aren’t a good fit, lowering the effectiveness percent.
Click to expand...

A study of great interest would be one that compares recovery rates of those that warm a chair and drink coffee at AA/12 step meetings with those that actively engage in working the program in their daily living. In my experience the latter groups recovery rate approaches 100%. The former group, I would speculate, is well less than 60%; many of those are not drinking but miserable.
 
AKiss20 said:
AA has de-facto religious connotations based on the big book and its history and explicit spiritual connotations with respect to a higher power. Some atheists and agnostics are willing to overlook the spiritual connotations to the extent that the meetings they attend promote or recast them into a message appropriate to their beliefs, some are not. That’s totally fine, AA doesn’t have to be the only solution. Where it is problematic is that it has effectively special status in our legal and regulatory system.
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Again, read my first sentence. :)
 
So, how does this work from an AME/FAA perspective? Say you got a DUI and FAA says you need 2 years of sobriety with documented meeting attendance and clean urine. First off, is that what they’d say? If so, how do you get an alternative approved?

I mean, say I think AA isn’t religious enough; it takes up recovery time I could be spending with my shaman in a sweat lodge. Would FAA medical accept such a thing? What criteria would they use?
 
(Just here waiting to see how long it takes for Foucault to enter the room)
I think the original question was "is there an FAA approved alternative to AAA?" (or words to that effect) but it's turned into addiction is a choice/disease debate.
 
Hengelo said:
(Just here waiting to see how long it takes for Foucault to enter the room)
I think the original question was "is there an FAA approved alternative to AAA?" (or words to that effect) but it's turned into addiction is a choice/disease debate.
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Hmmm. I’m not seeing that.
 
Hengelo said:
(Just here waiting to see how long it takes for Foucault to enter the room)
I think the original question was "is there an FAA approved alternative to AAA?" (or words to that effect) but it's turned into addiction is a choice/disease debate.
Click to expand...
Well, AAA is the biggest auto club.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
The point of this post isn’t to probe the why’s, but to acknowledge that there are those with a strong philosophical dislike for AA. If one of them finds himself having to do the HIMS whatnot, is there an AMOC?
Click to expand...
I want to acknowledge there are those with strong philosophical dislike of whining from the people who choose to do HIMS. No one is required to.
 
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Clip4 said:
I want to acknowledge there are those with strong philosophical dislike of whining from the people who choose to do HIMS. No one is required to.
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IMG_0005.jpeg


I did choose to go into HIMS as opposed to hanging up on a life goal. Delayed consequences of prior behavior. It sucks but beats the alternative.
 
There is no recovery.

But what do I know, I saw the title of this thread and puzzled for about 30 seconds who was philosophically FOR American Airlines.
 
bflynn said:
There is no recovery.

But what do I know, I saw the title of this thread and puzzled for about 30 seconds who was philosophically FOR American Airlines.
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Robert Isom? (to the tune of $31.4 million, 2023)
Vasu Raja? Not so much
 
OneCharlieTango said:
The point of this post isn’t to probe the why’s, but to acknowledge that there are those with a strong philosophical dislike for AA. If one of them finds himself having to do the HIMS whatnot, is there an AMOC?
Click to expand...

Take the bus?
The FAA can deny the h_ck out of your application.
 
The court in WV realized that forced AA is also forced religion. I know people spin it such that it fits in with their beliefs, but in the end a person must accept the monotheistic deity of the old testament or some likeness thereof. I understand that AA has helped a lot of people, including some on here. I suspect most or all were either religious to start, or could live with the idea of 'spiritual, but not religious'. There are some that cannot force themselves to believe in some 'higher power', no matter how hard they try.

I've been wondering if or when someone would try to use the WV ruling with the FAA. Due to the power of the FAA, I don't think it's going to happen very soon. The people who continue with HIMS would rather quit using to pursue their dreams, or hide their use. Fighting a battle with the FAA would be time consuming and expensive.

"The “Big Book” of Alcoholics Anonymous includes a chapter that tells “atheists and agnostics they are ‘doomed to an alcohol death’ unless they ‘seek Him.’” The chapter goes on to deride the nonreligious as “handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice.”"

www.atheists.org

American Atheists Wins in West Virginia Religious Coercion Lawsuit

Charleston, WV — American Atheists announced today a resounding victory in its federal lawsuit, in partnership with Mountain State Justice, against the leadership of the West Virginia Division of Corrections and Rehabilitation (WVDCR) in April 2023 on behalf of Andrew Miller, an atheist and...
www.atheists.org www.atheists.org
 
MonkeyClaw said:
The court in WV realized that forced AA is also forced religion. I know people spin it such that it fits in with their beliefs, but in the end a person must accept the monotheistic deity of the old testament or some likeness thereof. I understand that AA has helped a lot of people, including some on here. I suspect most or all were either religious to start, or could live with the idea of 'spiritual, but not religious'. There are some that cannot force themselves to believe in some 'higher power', no matter how hard they try.

I've been wondering if or when someone would try to use the WV ruling with the FAA. Due to the power of the FAA, I don't think it's going to happen very soon. The people who continue with HIMS would rather quit using to pursue their dreams, or hide their use. Fighting a battle with the FAA would be time consuming and expensive.

"The “Big Book” of Alcoholics Anonymous includes a chapter that tells “atheists and agnostics they are ‘doomed to an alcohol death’ unless they ‘seek Him.’” The chapter goes on to deride the nonreligious as “handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice.”"

www.atheists.org

American Atheists Wins in West Virginia Religious Coercion Lawsuit

Charleston, WV — American Atheists announced today a resounding victory in its federal lawsuit, in partnership with Mountain State Justice, against the leadership of the West Virginia Division of Corrections and Rehabilitation (WVDCR) in April 2023 on behalf of Andrew Miller, an atheist and...
www.atheists.org www.atheists.org
Click to expand...
Wow, that sucks. Since I am an atheist, I had better get drinking or I will be doomed to die of something other than what I am not doomed to die of. Sounds terrible.
 
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MonkeyClaw said:
The court in WV realized that forced AA is also forced religion. I know people spin it such that it fits in with their beliefs, but in the end a person must accept the monotheistic deity of the old testament or some likeness thereof. I understand that AA has helped a lot of people, including some on here. I suspect most or all were either religious to start, or could live with the idea of 'spiritual, but not religious'. There are some that cannot force themselves to believe in some 'higher power', no matter how hard they try.

I've been wondering if or when someone would try to use the WV ruling with the FAA. Due to the power of the FAA, I don't think it's going to happen very soon. The people who continue with HIMS would rather quit using to pursue their dreams, or hide their use. Fighting a battle with the FAA would be time consuming and expensive.

"The “Big Book” of Alcoholics Anonymous includes a chapter that tells “atheists and agnostics they are ‘doomed to an alcohol death’ unless they ‘seek Him.’” The chapter goes on to deride the nonreligious as “handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice.”"

www.atheists.org

American Atheists Wins in West Virginia Religious Coercion Lawsuit

Charleston, WV — American Atheists announced today a resounding victory in its federal lawsuit, in partnership with Mountain State Justice, against the leadership of the West Virginia Division of Corrections and Rehabilitation (WVDCR) in April 2023 on behalf of Andrew Miller, an atheist and...
www.atheists.org www.atheists.org
Click to expand...
This is a complete misrepresentation of what the chapter says, and I say that as an atheist. AA does not require a belief in any particular god or religion, and although AA uses the word "god" a lot, it also says that it's "your own conception of god" and suggests that AA itself - a Group Of Drunks (GOD) - can act as the higher power for members.

AA is not for everyone and, as has been mentioned in this thread, AA itself says it has no monopoly on treatment, but when people say they are philosophically opposed to AA, it often really means they are philosophically opposed to abstinence from alcohol or to the idea that they may be alcoholic.
 
robin ardoin said:
Discuss that with your HIMS AME.
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I don’t have or need one. I brought the whole thing up out of idle curiosity and a general distaste for AA. Do you know if there’s a list, or are programs evaluated on a case by case basis?
 
Post #26 says take a bus, so there's that. There are other programs people have used if you have the time and money. If you push hard enough, you can get through it with an AMOC.

Sucks, but the taxpayers allow the bureaucracy sees things that way, they very much believe in one size fits all solutions.
 
OneCharlieTango, The athiest website MonkeyClaw posted a link to that describes the court win, also provides 2 alternatives to AA. Smart, and LifeRing. Why should POA search for other options?

The athiest groups should be doing that for their members, and assuming that you financially support them, that is what they owe you.
 
geezer said:
OneCharlieTango, The athiest website MonkeyClaw posted a link to that describes the court win, also provides 2 alternatives to AA. Smart, and LifeRing. Why should POA search for other options?

The athiest groups should be doing that for their members, and assuming that you financially support them, that is what they owe you.
Click to expand...
What? Who says there has to be an atheist group? Who says an atheist must belong to a group? Who says an atheist group should care about alcoholism or the treatment of such for its members? Why would an atheist group owe one of their members for some specific need they happen to have?

I suspect there's a joke here that I must be missing.
 
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