What experimental similar to Cub or Champ?

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Punkinhead

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Punkinhead
I've had a J3 for about 10 years. Our local A&P/IA "retired" several years ago but still works with a few of us. I suspect he'll totally hang it up soon and finding another A&P who's easy to work with in my area is going to be very difficult so I'd like to move to experimental so I can do my own maintenance. I'd like another low and slow taildragger similar to a Cub or Champ. My wife can still climb in and out of the front seat of our Cub but it gets harder every year so I'd like something a little roomier and with easier ingress/egress. Tandem or side by side seating is fine and "upgrading" to something with a little more power (like a Citabria) is OK too but not really necessary. A biplane might be cool if it has canopies for 3-season flying.

I'm not interested in building so I'd like something already flying for the same or less than the value of my Cub (under $45-50k). What's out there in the used experimental world?
 
Realistic options for flying aircraft: Cub Crafters, Legend Aircraft, Rans, Bearhawk, and Kitfox. Fishers and Wittmans might be an option and also Glastar.
 
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tsts4 said:
Realistic options for flying aircraft: Cub Crafters, Legend Aircraft, Rans, Bearhawk, and Kitfox. Fishers and Wittmans might be an option and also Glastar.
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Chances of finding one of those in flying condition for under $45K? Slim and none. And not being the builder will require an annual condition inspection and sign-off by an A&P.
 
Stewartb said:
Chances of finding one of those in flying condition for under $45K? Slim and none. And not being the builder will require an annual condition inspection and sign-off by an A&P.
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Don’t disagree with you on the price point, but IMO those are the makes someone is most likely to find on the used market. There’s no such thing as a free lunch.
 
If you want "Cub like" there are homebuilt Cub clones like Wag-Aero's Cuby, there's also their Wag-A-Bond. For biplanes, the Hatz is the most Cub like. I've never seen one with a closed canopy, though I'm sure it could be done. Most of the other sport biplanes are faster and decidedly not Cub like.
 
Highlander or Escapade
 
Punkinhead said:
My wife can still climb in and out of the front seat of our Cub but it gets harder every year so I'd like something a little roomier and with easier ingress/egress. Tandem or side by side seating is fine [...] A biplane might be cool if it has canopies for 3-season flying.
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If the front of a Cub is hard, many (most?) biplanes in the sub $50K may be worse... An exception would be something like a Hyperbipe but those are likely a bit on the pricey side.

Avid Flyers, early Kitfox, Rans... are Cub like in performance - somewhat awkward to get in and out - you would have to try. My Merlin GT has more room inside and I made the passenger stick removable to make it easy to get in and out on the right but their ain't many of these around. (FWIW I paid $20K, but she ain't no beauty queen.)

Nothing wrong with a Rotax 912/914 as far as reliability and performance are concerned (at least as compared to a Lycoming / Continental).
 
It might be possible to pick up a Zenith 750 for that price. Not exactly cub-like, but roomy and great low & slow. Great visibility, very solid feel when flying, easy to maintain.
 
FWIW, guy I knew that took primary flight training when I did, and we both flew cubs, bought a Champ shortly after. He loved it and said it was a bit roomier and easier to get into. So second hand info, but I'm sure he was sincere. I'd guess he was mid 50's, about my size, or around 6'/200 lbs. I think there may be less climbing than getting into a cub, but that part is a guess. Years ago Champs were less expensive than similar shape Cubs, for whatever reason.
 
Albany Tom said:
FWIW, guy I knew that took primary flight training when I did, and we both flew cubs, bought a Champ shortly after. He loved it and said it was a bit roomier and easier to get into. So second hand info, but I'm sure he was sincere. I'd guess he was mid 50's, about my size, or around 6'/200 lbs. I think there may be less climbing than getting into a cub, but that part is a guess. Years ago Champs were less expensive than similar shape Cubs, for whatever reason.
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Yes, Champs are roomier and easier to get in and out of than a Cub at about half the price. They fly and land pretty similar to a Cub other than you solo from the front seat. If I wanted to stay with a certified aircraft it's what I'd buy. I'd love to find something equivalent to a Champ in an experimental.
 
tsts4 said:
The problem (which is the same for WagAero, etc) is finding one already flying for sale.
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What some people have done is look up the aircraft registry and send a bunch of postcards asking if any of them want to sell.
 
I re-read your first post. You might be able to get a nicer certified aircraft for enough less than an experimental to pay for flying to, or having an a&p fly to you, for maintenance. Partly I say that because I'd be way more likely to trust a 50+ year old certified aircraft than a 20 year old experimental, partly because DIY maintenance, but more because I trust gas welded steel tubing to last 50 years with good maintenance more than I do carbon fiber/epoxy. That's just me, though, I'm a bit old fashioned...or maybe risk adverse in construction techniques.
 
Albany Tom said:
I'd be way more likely to trust a 50+ year old certified aircraft than a 20 year old experimental, partly because DIY maintenance, but more because I trust gas welded steel tubing to last 50 years with good maintenance more than I do carbon fiber/epoxy.
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Most of the experimentals mentioned here are welded steel tubing...
 
You can do your own maintenance on any experimental, but you still need an A&P for a condition inspection.
For you to do your own sign-off, you need to have a Special Light Sport (SLSA) and take the 3 week course or an Experimental Light Sport and take the 16 hour course. I think the chances of finding an SLSA or ELSA in a Cub-like configuration are slim and none. Plenty of E-AB, but few SLSA or ELSA in your configuration or price range.
Consider looking into SLSA like a Flight Design CTSW, convert it to ELSA, take the 16 hour course and do your own sign-off.
 
I have a medical so don't need an LSA. I know about the condition inspection and don't think I'd have any problems finding an A&P once a year. I just don't want to depend on an A&P for every maintenance item throughout the year, especially when we have no on field maintenance.
 
Punkinhead said:
Funny you mention that. I was at a hangar party yesterday and a friend also suggested the Christavia. I don't see any for sale at the moment but I'll keep an eye open.
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I think one sold in the last two weeks...
 
Punkinhead said:
I have a medical so don't need an LSA. I know about the condition inspection and don't think I'd have any problems finding an A&P once a year. I just don't want to depend on an A&P for every maintenance item throughout the year, especially when we have no on field maintenance.
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Take a look at the maintenance rules for SLSAs and ELSAs. For ELSAs a 25 hour course will allow you to sign off the condition inspection and with SLSAs it's a 15 day course.

Having said that, the Coleal Interpretation opens up own maintenance quite broadly. You may be able to do most of the work that you are relying on your A&P for on your Cub.

Mike Busch cited it often when talking about the A&P shortage. AOPA published an article of his about it a few years ago.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/october/pilot/savvy-aviator-preventive-maintenance
 
jnmeade said:
You can do your own maintenance on any experimental, but you still need an A&P for a condition inspection.
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I know the OP said he's not interested in building but the builder of an E-AB can get the repairman certificate to do his own condition inspection.
 
There's a big difference in ease of getting into or out of a Cub or Champ. Champ is way more friendly that way. The Christavia is a Champ knockoff.

Look at the differences in where the wing struts attach to the fuselage, and what sort of a step there is, and where is the bottom of the door.

Piper Cub:

1689008495689.png

You have to climb over those struts and into the aft end of that high-threshold door. Not supposed to step on the struts, or you can crack the attachment lugs. You'd better be fairly flexible and agile.

Christavia/Champ/Citabria:

1689008919171.png

The struts attach ahead of the door, out of the way. The door threshold is lower, and there's a more convenient step. Easy to get in.
 
MarkH said:
Take a look at the maintenance rules for SLSAs and ELSAs. For ELSAs a 25 hour course will allow you to sign off the condition inspection and with SLSAs it's a 15 day course.
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It's a 16 hour course for Light Sport Repairman certificate with Inspection rating (LSR-I) which allows you to perform the condition inspection on an E-LSA that you own. That's the 2-day course; I took it a few years ago.

The 120 hour (for airplane) Light Sport Repairman certificate with Maintenance rating (LSR-M) allows you to preform maintenance, repairs, and inspections on any E- or S-LSA of the class for which you're trained. That's the 15 day Rainbow Aviation course.
 
A very different direction:

I also wanted “low and slow” and was headed down the Cub, etc path - until I test-flew a gyro at OSH. The speeds are about the same and it’s much better to think of it as a “Cub with a spinning wing” than a “small helicopter”.

I park mine in front of the left wing of my Warrior - it’s that small.

I built it in Italy - in under a week. My wife spent her days in Milan while I was in the factory.

While mine is a very open tandem Magni M-16, their M-24 is enclosed and side-by-side. I have about $90K into mine and an M-24 is about $100-110K. Not many LSAs in that price range.

As in another thread, the gyro does remarkably well in gusts. I flew an Apollo Fox and got tossed around a lot. Not so with the gyro.

I LOVE rooting around low and slow in my Magni.

Just a thought…
 
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