What does that 1200 AGL mean on the sectional

WannFly

WannFly

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looking at US / Canada border (between KBDE and KINL), what exactly does that 1200 AGL mean?

upload_2018-9-28_10-24-31.png
 
on a related note... that direct flight path takes me into Canadian airspace, as long as I am not landing in canada, I should be cool rt? I am on BasicMed and don't think they like it.

or I can just keep the river to my left and stay outside their airspace
 
WannFly said:
on a related note... that direct flight path takes me into Canadian airspace, as long as I am not landing in canada, I should be cool rt? I am on BasicMed and don't think they like it.

or I can just keep the river to my left and stay outside their airspace
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You can...but you have to be squawking a code...I get that here in Michigan overflying Ontario quite a bit...I just ask for "Flight following for Canada overflight to XYZ airport"...seems to work to keep those pesky F16s away.
 
On another note...just west of Baudette is Billberg. I've always wanted to land there just to say I did. The airport is named after Rudy Billberg, who wrote an awesome book, In the Shadow of Eagles. If you haven't read it, its a good one...
 
tawood said:
On another note...just west of Baudette is Billberg. I've always wanted to land there just to say I did. The airport is named after Rudy Billberg, who wrote an awesome book, In the Shadow of Eagles. If you haven't read it, its a good one...
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I read Flying the Alaska Wild last year and loved it. Just ordered your recommendation off Amazon for $5.70 shipped. Looking forward to it.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You are good as long as you don't mind violating regulations, which you would be doing if you flew in Canadian airspace without a valid FAA medical.
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hmm.. ok keep the river on my left while going to International Falls.. got it
 
WannFly said:
ok … so now the Q on BasicMed and Canadian airspace... how on earth would you land and take off from 48Y. looks like half the runway is in Canada
https://skyvector.com/airport/48Y/Piney-Pinecreek-Border-Airport
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I couldn't tell you for sure on the basic med part but my understanding is that there is an agreement between the US and Canada regarding that airport. To land there customs does not need to be notified unless the intent is to visit the other country. Perhaps that agreement would extend to the medical requirement as well and you could land there just like any other airport in the US. I'd probably look into it further if you're really concerned, but if not I probably wouldn't lose much sleep over it.

I've been wanting to land there for quite some time now. Haven't gotten to pass through there on any of my Canadian or northern Minnesota trips. There is a Canadian ramp and a US ramp, make sure to pick the right one.
 
Actually, it is the floor of controlled airspace. The Class G airspace ends just below the floor of controlled airspace.
 
WannFly said:
on a related note... that direct flight path takes me into Canadian airspace, as long as I am not landing in canada, I should be cool rt? I am on BasicMed and don't think they like it.

or I can just keep the river to my left and stay outside their airspace
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To cross, you need to be on a flight plan (either IFR or VFR), squawking and talking. For US/Canada border, there is no ADIZ so you don't need it to be a DVFR flight plan or the other requirements for ADIZ penetration, though.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
To cross, you need to be on a flight plan (either IFR or VFR), squawking and talking. For US/Canada border, there is no ADIZ so you don't need it to be a DVFR flight plan or the other requirements for ADIZ penetration, though.
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I know about the requirement to be on an active IFR or VFR flight plan but I didn’t know about a requirement to squawk and talk to cross the US/Canada border. Can you elaborate on that one?
 
Well weather permitting Sunday AM I will be there and then planning a short VFR jump to KINL, I don’t know if MSP center will have me on radar that low, but will give it a shot. Plan to stay south of the river and not bust anything.
 
Larry in TN said:
Actually, it is the floor of controlled airspace. The Class G airspace ends just below the floor of controlled airspace.
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Yeah. Why the guy drawing the Chart put 1200 there is the question. It’s redundant. The blue shaded areas are 1200 by default. Only when it is different is the altitude charted
 
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iamtheari said:
I know about the requirement to be on an active IFR or VFR flight plan but I didn’t know about a requirement to squawk and talk to cross the US/Canada border. Can you elaborate on that one?
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You do not need to talk but you’re supposed to have a discreet squawk code when crossing the border. But I’ve known guys who have crossed with no flight plan and no squawk and nobody came to arrest them.

I’d have to go try and find it again but I believe there is no requirement for a flight plan or squawk when flying in and out of Pine Creek despite half the runway and traffic pattern being in Canada.
 
mondtster said:
You do not need to talk but you’re supposed to have a discreet squawk code when crossing the border. But I’ve known guys who have crossed with no flight plan and no squawk and nobody came to arrest them.

I’d have to go try and find it again but I believe there is no requirement for a flight plan or squawk when flying in and out of Pine Creek despite half the runway and traffic pattern being in Canada.
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This Canadian website claims that you must be squawking a discrete transponder code to cross the border under US law, citing 91.707. https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/general-operating-flight-rules/flying-canada-what-pilots-should-know.html

But 91.707 reads in its entirety: “Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate a civil aircraft between Mexico or Canada and the United States without filing an IFR or VFR flight plan, as appropriate.”

I think that the Canadians are just confused.
 
iamtheari said:
This Canadian website claims that you must be squawking a discrete transponder code to cross the border under US law, citing 91.707. https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/general-operating-flight-rules/flying-canada-what-pilots-should-know.html

But 91.707 reads in its entirety: “Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate a civil aircraft between Mexico or Canada and the United States without filing an IFR or VFR flight plan, as appropriate.”

I think that the Canadians are just confused.
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But is the flight plan needed for overflights? The reason I ask is because I’ve been vectored over Canada numerous times, without a flight plan, when flying through Detroit’s bravo. I am squawking a code at the time, but no flight plan.
 
iamtheari said:
This Canadian website claims that you must be squawking a discrete transponder code to cross the border under US law, citing 91.707. https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/general-operating-flight-rules/flying-canada-what-pilots-should-know.html

But 91.707 reads in its entirety: “Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate a civil aircraft between Mexico or Canada and the United States without filing an IFR or VFR flight plan, as appropriate.”

I think that the Canadians are just confused.
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The Canadians aren’t confused. You’re quoting US regulations. The US requires the discreet squawk and flight plan to cross the border, not the us.

Whenever I’ve asked Canadians for a discreet squawk to cross back to the US they act a bit confused. After you explain why you need it they oblige.
 
mondtster said:
The Canadians aren’t confused. You’re quoting US regulations. The US requires the discreet squawk and flight plan to cross the border, not the us.

Whenever I’ve asked Canadians for a discreet squawk to cross back to the US they act a bit confused. After you explain why you need it they oblige.
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Can you show me the Canadian or US regulation that requires the discrete transponder code to cross the border? I have been looking and can’t find it. The only reference I found was what I posted above: A Canadian website making the claim with a citation to a US regulation that does not support the claim.
 
tawood said:
But is the flight plan needed for overflights? The reason I ask is because I’ve been vectored over Canada numerous times, without a flight plan, when flying through Detroit’s bravo. I am squawking a code at the time, but no flight plan.
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For overflights in general, yes. However, when I was zoomed in on the area in question in ForeFlight, the ForeFlight data-driven chart popped up that the airspace in that area was delegated to Minneapolis Center. My guess is that the delegation is written down somewhere and includes exemptions to the flight plan requirements.
 
tawood said:
But is the flight plan needed for overflights? The reason I ask is because I’ve been vectored over Canada numerous times, without a flight plan, when flying through Detroit’s bravo. I am squawking a code at the time, but no flight plan.
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The Detroit TRACON controllers i talked to told me something like "not my problem" when the question about having a flight plan or not came up. On the other hand, the radar feed does get copied to some homeland security facility somewhere where they are looking for "bad people" so the fact that the TRACON doesn't care doesn't mean that you are home free.
 
iamtheari said:
Can you show me the Canadian or US regulation that requires the discrete transponder code to cross the border? I have been looking and can’t find it. The only reference I found was what I posted above: A Canadian website making the claim with a citation to a US regulation that does not support the claim.
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I’m busy now but if I get time I’ll look later. It may not be an FAA regulation but instead a CBP one. When you cross the border without a transponder the FAA doesn’t care but other people do and require you to get a waiver.

By the way, it is good for everyone to remember that not all of our obligations within aviation come from the FAA regulations. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are the requirement to monitor 121.5 (by notam) and the TSA endorsement and document retention required of flight instructors.
 
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mondtster said:
I’m busy now but if I get time I’ll look later. It may not be an FAA regulation but instead a CBP one. When you cross the border without a transponder the FAA doesn’t care but other people do and require you to get a waiver.

By the way, it is good for everyone to remember that not all of our obligations within aviation come from the FAA regulations. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are the requirement to monitor 121.5 (by notam) and the TSA endorsement and document retention required of flight instructors.
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You definitely need a Mode C transponder. It's the discrete code requirement that I can't find a solid source for. Don't look too hard for my sake...I'm more likely to file IFR on a trip like that anyhow so it's basically moot. :)
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. Why the guy drawing the Chart put 1200 there is the question. It’s redundant. The blue shaded areas are 1200 by default. Only when it is different is the altitude charted
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I think it's because it is at the US/Canada border and there is some non-shaded airspace just north of it.
 
iamtheari said:
I know about the requirement to be on an active IFR or VFR flight plan but I didn’t know about a requirement to squawk and talk to cross the US/Canada border. Can you elaborate on that one?
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I couldn't find a reg myself, but the AOPA/COPA border-crossing primer did say that (without referencing chapter and verse).

tawood said:
But is the flight plan needed for overflights? The reason I ask is because I’ve been vectored over Canada numerous times, without a flight plan, when flying through Detroit’s bravo. I am squawking a code at the time, but no flight plan.
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Special case, I think.
 
weirdjim said:
Last time I looked, BasicMed IS a valid FAA medical.

Jim
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68.1 Applicability.
This part prescribes the medical education and examination requirements for operating an aircraft under §61.113(i) of this chapter without holding a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter

But, whether or not you call it a "FAA Medical" or not, Canada ain't buying.
 
WannFly said:
looking at US / Canada border (between KBDE and KINL), what exactly does that 1200 AGL mean?
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Looks to me like it differentiates floor of class E airspace on US side of the class G and the class E on the Canadian side which begins at 2200 agl. That little tiny triangle of class G then goes all the way to 14,500 MSL - Cool!
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
68.1 Applicability.
This part prescribes the medical education and examination requirements for operating an aircraft under §61.113(i) of this chapter without holding a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter

But, whether or not you call it a "FAA Medical" or not, Canada ain't buying.
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And if you follow the reference to 61.113(i), you find the prohibition:
(ii) Outside the United States unless authorized by the country in which the flight is conducted;

Canada has not so authorized. To my knowledge, the only country that has is the Bahamas.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. Why the guy drawing the Chart put 1200 there is the question. It’s redundant. The blue shaded areas are 1200 by default. Only when it is different is the altitude charted
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Probably because its on the border; in Canada the floor of controlled airspace is 2200 AGL or higher (as noted elsewhere, around there is up to 12500 MSL). Since its different all over that particular stretch of land they show it.
 
The communication and transponder requirements for flights crossing the northern US border cannot be found in the FARS or AIM because they are based on temporary rules issued in a NOTAM about 15 years ago. The relevant NOTAM goes on at length after what I have copied below, but here is the pertinent text:

!FDC 6/4256 KZZZ SECURITY...SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS FOR CIVIL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS TO OR FROM THE TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE UNITED STATES (U.S.). THE FOLLOWING SPECIAL SECURITY REQUIREMENTS FOR CIVIL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS TO AND FROM THE U.S. ARE IN EFFECT PURSUANT TO 14 CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (CFR) 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, AND 49 USC 40103 AND 41703, IN ADDITION TO THE REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN 14 CFR PART 99 (SECURITY CONTROL OF AIR TRAFFIC). THE REQUIREMENTS IN THIS NOTAM SUPERSEDE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR CIVIL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS TO OR FROM U.S. TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE FORMERLY PUBLISHED IN FDC NOTAM 5/5782 (A0053/15). SECURITY REQUIREMENTS FOR CIVIL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS WITHIN OR TRANSITING U.S. TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE ARE PROVIDED IN A SEPARATE NOTAM. IN ADDITION TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS NOTAM, CIVIL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS TO OR FROM THE TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE U.S. MUST COMPLY WITH ALL OTHER APPLICABLE REGULATIONS PUBLISHED IN TITLE 14 CFR. PART I. CIVIL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS TO OR FROM U.S. TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE A. CIVIL AIRCRAFT, EXCEPT AS DESCRIBED IN PART I, PARAGRAPH B, ARE AUTHORIZED TO OPERATE TO OR FROM THE TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE U.S. IF IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS: 1) FILE AND ARE ON AN ACTIVE FLIGHT PLAN (IFR,VFR, OR DVFR); 2) ARE EQUIPPED WITH AN OPERATIONAL MODE C OR S TRANSPONDER, AND CONTINUOUSLY SQUAWK AN ATC ASSIGNED TRANSPONDER CODE; 3) MAINTAIN TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS WITH ATC; 4) COMPLY WITH ALL APPLICABLE U.S. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION (CBP) REQUIREMENTS, INCLUDING ADVANCE PASSENGER INFORMATION SYSTEM (APIS) REQUIREMENTS...

To summarize, a cross-border flight needs an active VFR or IFR flight plan. As stated above, there is no ADIZ on the northern US border so rules specific to ADIZ penetration do not apply, such as DVFR flight plans, notification of crossing time and a "discrete" transponder code.

Note that the text above refers to using an "ATC Assigned Transponder Code." An interpretation more than a decade ago stated that 1200 is the "ATC assigned" code for uncontrolled VFR aircraft and would suffice for this purpose, but you have to be actively squawking it. Sorry, I can't dig up that reference, but there is no text in existence that requires a "discrete code" in this setting. One can infer that the FAA could have used the word discrete in this NOTAM is they wanted to, since it has been revised several times. That being said, you can get a discrete code from FSS if you like, often something like 1201, 1202 etc.

The same long-ago interpretation stated that communication with FSS was sufficient. Note that there is no requirement for radar service, only for maintaining two-way communications with ATC, and advising FSS that you will monitor their frequency counts. For much of the northern border, you will be below Center radar coverage at common low VFR altitudes, so you may not be able to get radar service if you want it.

Don't forget the other decades-old NOTAM which says you SHALL monitor 121.5 at all times if able.

This is an example of how broken the FAA and its rulemaking process is. Temporary emergency rules should have been formally codified after years and years. There is nothing but silence from AOPA and other pilot groups on this.

Jon
 
Isn't that how the floor of controlled airspace was depicted on Sectionals over uneven terrain back in the old days?

Now, they just put "Class G" on the map:

Class_G.png
 
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