What are Your Thoughts About the DPE System?

WDD said:
Same purpose - get qualified people giving check rides

An analogue would be Basic Med vs 3rd class. Basic Med accomplishes the same goal as 3rd class - but by passes the administrative constraints.

The oversight would be the CFI’s student pass record. If it drops, or doesn’t have the required number of students, he/she isn’t current to give check rides.

it wouldn’t be dependent upon the DPE system which limits the DPEs.
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So to continue the same analog, you need to convince Congress to mandate it.

And just like Basic Med, pilots won’t be happy with it because Congress doesn’t require everything that they want.
 
WDD said:
So if 90% of students who get CFI endorsement to take a DPE check ride for a PPL pass, sounds like the DPE checkride is redundant and not needed.
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More single point data...

For me, Private Pilot ASEL has an 80% pass rate.

Initial CFI's right now are under 60% but thats only a sample size of 12.

My average across all checkrides is 70%.

I do Private/Instrument/Commercial/ATP/CFI/CFII/MEI in Gliders, Single, and Multi.
 
I would hope the FAA can eventually do things better without congress having to intervene

I would say most are thrilled with Basic Med, given the number of people on it. Something doesn’t have to be perfect to be good/ great, and everyone doesn’t have to be completely satisfied to be useful to a great many people.
 
tonycondon said:
More single point data...

For me, Private Pilot ASEL has an 80% pass rate.

Initial CFI's right now are under 60% but thats only a sample size of 12.

My average across all checkrides is 70%.

I do Private/Instrument/Commercial/ATP/CFI/CFII/MEI in Gliders, Single, and Multi.
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How does your PPG pass rate stack up?

It's likely a small sample also, but interesting to compare I hope.
 
WDD said:
I would hope the FAA can eventually do things better without congress having to intervene.
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If you want to get something done counter to the statistics, you’ll need congressional intervention.
 
WDD said:
The oversight would be the CFI’s student pass record. If it drops, or doesn’t have the required number of students, he/she isn’t current to give check rides.

it wouldn’t be dependent upon the DPE system which limits the DPEs.
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So what happens when we have the said CFI issuing certificates at 100% pass rate, IOW's give him/her a couple hundred bucks and a few trips around the pattern and you have a certificate? The CFI is not checking items per the ACS/PTS, just picking a few he/she likes and calling it good. Where's the oversight?
 
My thought is, it takes an eternity plus a few years for weather cancellations to get an appointment with a DPE that actually results in a checkride. If it were possible to create a system where you could get an appointment within a month and reschedule within a couple of weeks, it would be lovely.

As far as CFIs being able to give checkrides...the mock-checkride my CFI gave me was harder than my actual checkride. She knew how close to standards I could fly and how well I knew the material and she didn't accept a performance below that. The DPE didn't have that knowledge and so, although I was within standards, he wasn't as particular as my CFI. I guess my point is, not all CFIs allow sloppy performance. I just think you'd possibly have too many CFIs who do, signing each other's students off whether they were actually passing or not.
 
SkyChaser said:
As far as CFIs being able to give checkrides...the mock-checkride my CFI gave me was harder than my actual checkride. She knew how close to standards I could fly and how well I knew the material and she didn't accept a performance below that. The DPE didn't have that knowledge and so, although I was within standards, he wasn't as particular as my CFI. I guess my point is, not all CFIs allow sloppy performance.
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The DPE didn’t have the legal ability to require the higher level of performance. The ACS is the standard, whether we like it or not. ;)
 
SkyChaser said:
As far as CFIs being able to give checkrides...the mock-checkride my CFI gave me was harder than my actual checkride.
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That's pretty typical. A good CFI wants you to have some margin inside the standards. That way, if you're nervous, are battling winds, etc., during the ride, you'll still be likely to pass. When a CFI endorses you for the checkride, you've essentially already passed and the instructor is just asking the USG to confirm it.
 
Half Fast said:
That's pretty typical. A good CFI wants you to have some margin inside the standards. That way, if you're nervous, are battling winds, etc., during the ride, you'll still be likely to pass. When a CFI endorses you for the checkride, you've essentially already passed and the instructor is just asking the USG to confirm it.
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My CFI told me when he thinks I am ready for the check ride he will put me through Hell in a test ride.
I sort of respect that .
 
Southpaw said:
My CFI told me when he thinks I am ready for the check ride he will put me through Hell in a test ride.
I sort of respect that .
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Well, imo, “hell” should mean every maneuver, but should not mean tighter standards. To not sign someone off for a PPL because they don’t meet CPL standards is wrong, IMO.
That said, if any ACS criteria is close, a good debriefing is in order.
 
My complaint with the DPE System is the insistence on cash payments.

I have to wonder how many tax returns are being filed for each check ride.

At a minimum, an examiner demanding cash should be required to give his tax Identification number on his receipt for his services.
 
JimNtexas said:
My complaint with the DPE System is the insistence on cash payments.

I have to wonder how many tax returns are being filed for each check ride.

At a minimum, an examiner demanding cash should be required to give his tax Identification number on his receipt for his services.
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FWIW, the friendly folks at the IRS monitor DPE’s fairly closely. Their designation is public information and published, so no secret as to who they are.

Also, acquiring the information on the number of checks the DPE has given can be obtained.

The DPE’s I know keep accurate books because they don’t want to be targets.
 
JimNtexas said:
My complaint with the DPE System is the insistence on cash payments.

I have to wonder how many tax returns are being filed for each check ride.

At a minimum, an examiner demanding cash should be required to give his tax Identification number on his receipt for his services.
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What would you suggest as an alternative?

Back when Checks were a thing, no DPE in their right mind would accept one.
Now we have credit cards with surcharges, I suppose everyone could just raise their prices to account for swiping though.
 
ja_user said:
What would you suggest as an alternative?

Back when Checks were a thing, no DPE in their right mind would accept one.
Now we have credit cards with surcharges, I suppose everyone could just raise their prices to account for swiping though.
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As a CFI, I routinely take Venmo, no reason why DPEs couldn’t do the same. The lack of consumer protections is actually appropriate for this use.
 
ja_user said:
Now we have credit cards with surcharges, I suppose everyone could just raise their prices to account for swiping though.
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Back 25 years ago we were equipping a new shock/vibe lab we found a local vendor we wanted to use, but who didn't take Visa (our corporate purchasing card). We told him that he should take Visa. "Why?" "Because Intel takes 60 days to pay on invoice". "But Visa wants a cut on the amount". "So raise your prices enough to cover it!" He did and we made it very worth his trouble.
 
It's me again. I accept Cash, Credit Card (Square Reader), Paypal or Venmo. Cash is my least preferable mostly because I hate walking around with a huge wad. I love Venmo.

The same system (DMS) that requires 24 hour notice of checkrides also keeps a detailed record of every certificate action that we perform. Plus IACRA does the same. Wouldn't take much of an auditor at the IRS to figure out how much we should've made since everything is recorded in at least two FAA Systems.

I take checks from a few flight schools and the occasional applicant. Being able to deposit on my smartphone bank app is convenient. Don't want to have to deal with a bounced check though.
 
tonycondon said:
It's me again. I accept Cash, Credit Card (Square Reader), Paypal or Venmo. Cash is my least preferable mostly because I hate walking around with a huge wad. I love Venmo.
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I do much the same, although I also take checks. As a CFI, though, I have a much longer-term relationship with a client than you do as a DPE, so I can see why you wouldn't want to take checks.

Have you ever had to deal with a disputed credit card charge/chargeback? (Like, the applicant failed, got grumpy and then disputed it with their credit card company)? I've always wondered how DPEs would deal with that.
 
ja_user said:
Back when Checks were a thing, no DPE in their right mind would accept one.
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:confused2: I've paid for every checkride with a check. Five checkrides over a 10 year period, all different DPEs too.
 
Two checkrides in the past year, both paid by check, different DPE's. Maybe it's because Albany is a small town.
 
Albany Tom said:
Two checkrides in the past year, both paid by check, different DPE's. Maybe it's because Albany is a small town.
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While Albany is not exactly NYC, it’s also not East Jesus Montana.
 
My LSA ASES a couple of months ago was one Visa charge to the company. Rental, CFI and CFI “Examiner”. No clue how it was split up.

Cheers
 
Kritchlow said:
While Albany is not exactly NYC, it’s also not East Jesus Montana.
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You might be surprised. In IT or aviation, pretty much everyone knows everyone else. I think in part because there's not a lot of city nearby...couple of driving hours to NYC, couple of hours, many hours to Canada, etc.
 
Albany Tom said:
You might be surprised. In IT or aviation, pretty much everyone knows everyone else. I think in part because there's not a lot of city nearby...couple of driving hours to NYC, couple of hours, many hours to Canada, etc.
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Wife is from Schenectady, use to work out of ALB many years ago.
 
:) Schenectady has had their troubles over the years, same with Troy, but plenty of good people there. I moved up here 30 years ago to go to school, and for whatever reason stayed. There's always some crazy scheme going on to boost local business, but I don't know what keeps the economy running.
 
ja_user said:
What would you suggest as an alternative?

Back when Checks were a thing, no DPE in their right mind would accept one.
Now we have credit cards with surcharges, I suppose everyone could just raise their prices to account for swiping though.
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Read what I wrote.
 
I wouldn't mind carrying cash I suppose, but I'd get a receipt. Not because I care of they pay taxes, I don't, or because I don't trust them, I do. But because some of the DPE's are getting up there in years, and I can absolutely see them forgetting whether or not I paid them mid-checkride. Not a discussion I want to have.
 
Albany Tom said:
I wouldn't mind carrying cash I suppose, but I'd get a receipt. Not because I care of they pay taxes, I don't, or because I don't trust them, I do. But because some of the DPE's are getting up there in years, and I can absolutely see them forgetting whether or not I paid them mid-checkride. Not a discussion I want to have.
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Every DPE I've known get's paid before the exam begins.
 
Only half kidding.... Swell people, and not there's anything wrong with it, but "hey, where did I leave my glasses", isn't far off from "did you pay me yet?"
 
Albany Tom said:
Only half kidding.... Swell people, and not there's anything wrong with it, but "hey, where did I leave my glasses", isn't far off from "did you pay me yet?"
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With checkrides costing $600 and up these days, I'm pretty sure the GIANT WAD OF CASH in their pocket might be a bit of a giveaway.
 
Cash in one hand, receipt in the other. I don’t care who it is, I’ve watched too many small claims court shows. If that irritates the person I’m dealing with, they are free to decline and the cash goes back into my pocket.

Cheers
 
Doc Holliday said:
But the public is against the FAA conducting check rides with FAA "employees",
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I don't know. I did my private check ride with an FAA inspector. It was nice to save the $500.00. I just had to do it on a weekday. I get the impression from people posting here that it is unusual for a local FSDO to allow their inspectors to do private check rides, or at least they don't think that they have that option.
 
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