what am I doing wrong here ?

[blueskyMD]

I have listed my airplane on TAP for almost 3 weeks and there is not a single inquiry about the plane. I want to sale the plane and move to rotorcraft world by the end of October. I thought market is pretty good for singles. I am looking for ideas to generate interest in the plane and expedite the sale. Here is the link to the listing.
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...l=LANCE+II&listing_id=2361759&s-type=aircraft

I will appreciate your suggestions . Feel free to make an honest critic of airplane or me. I can handle it.

 

[cowman]

Ok, as someone who bought a straight tail Lance back in Jan this year I'll tell you how I'd have evaluated this listing.

Airframe time is on the high side but not extreme, prop time is I think approaching TBO, engine time is a bit over mid-time. None of those things would run me off. The airplane has ADS-B and nice avionics which are I think your best selling point. The airplane also has club seating which is what most people buying a PA-32 are going to want. Unfortunately it's also a T-tail which is less desirable. Also what's with the pad on the pilot's seat? Overall, the paint and interior look good. If I was still shopping I might have looked into this one, I don't think the asking price is out of line but I'd probably have tried to get you to come down because of the T-tail and higher times.

My guess would be this is summer and most people who were ready and eager to buy already found the plane they wanted and are out flying and the right person just hasn't come along. Best time of year to sell is early spring. Maybe try to link to the PA-32 group on facebook and list some other places like controller. There are also brokers out there who can probably get it sold for a price. Good luck.

 

[Craig]

Quick glance shows spelling mistakes as well as capitalization ones. You need to tighten up the copy.

Here's a quick revamp on the last part of the ad, but still needs some word work:

Paint is 10 years old, with some areas having been freshened up.

Knots 2 U wing tips with LEDs. Position lights and landing lights are LEDs.

Rosen visors.

Interior is 10 years old, in nice condition.

Club seating with center console.

Fire extinguisher mounted in forward cabin.



This is a well maintained Lance, and nicely equipped for IFR flight.

Log books are complete with detailed maintenance history.

 

[Unit74]

I think its a nice plane at a decent price. I think your offer would be around $115k.

 

[midwestpa24]

Nothing jumps out at me, you just have to find the right buyer that is looking for this kind of package. Piston singles are hot, but mainly the routine 172/182 or Archers. I've been trying to help a former student find something and haven't had much luck in those.

 

[RyanB]

Nothing jumps out at me, you just have to find the right buyer that is looking for this kind of package. Piston singles are hot, but mainly the routine 172/182 or Archers. I've been trying to help a former student find something and haven't had much luck in those.

That’s what I would say as well.

It’s a nice airplane that’s reasonably priced, but it’s not the type of aircraft that every prospective buyer is looking for. Be patient, the right person will come along soon.

 

[Velocity173]

What’s wrong is you’re selling a beautiful Lance to go rotorcraft. That’s what’s wrong. Nice plane though. If I were in the market for a Lance I’d look seriously at this one.

 

[mooneyflyfast]

I have been vaguely looking at Lances and had looked at your ad.
i agree with what cowman said except the 7,000+ is more of a turnoff for me. I am looking for AC which your airplane apparently does not have. The 530 is OK but old technology. If it had air and lower TT I might be interested. I don't think it is your ad that is the problem--it's the airplane and the price.

 

[SkyDog58]

You have a very well equipped panel which I think is the plane’s major strength. Yet most of the pictures of the panel are not very good. Get some better pictures posted.

 

[wheaties]

Will second the bad panel puctures: left half straight on, right half from pilots perspective, full straight on.

Also, total time will hurt. Need to say "never a trainer" with those hours. Yeah, a lance as a trainer... but...

 

[hindsight2020]

well i got told to scram cuz i had the temerity to ask a measly 10k below asking for an 11ooott beat up parcel hauling lance with two prop strikes and a nose gear collapse with original collins and over tbo engine. dude wanted 80. not even a counter offer or anything. sooo im staying out of this one LOL.

catch up mx on my arrow 7 years ago was 5k but people act like asking 10k below asking is a personal affront on a 100k airplane. sellers are insane. lol

the OP has a fine plane all things considered. it ll eventually sell. this is about the top of the market so its a good time as any to sell an airplane. Im on the bottom end of the lance market so im not gonna make an offer. @Unit74 has the right idea though fwiw. my opinion and what you paid for it....

 

[TCABM]

Not much to add, some minor things I’d consider:

Better quality pics and more of them (except the fire extinguisher one). Link or uploads logbooks.

In the description, answer this question for me: why should I click on your ad? Be honest and focus on the positives. Look at this ad to get an idea of what I mean: http://pristineairplanes.com/listing/1981-piper-turbo-fixed-gear-saratoga/

It might be worth mentioning why your selling it, but that could cut both ways and draw low ballers.

Some marketing 101..., look at your competitors and see what their ads say and how your plane differentiated and why that should be valued.

Plaster the ad (or a link to the ad) in every place you can...TAP, Barnstormers, FB, Craigslist, Nextdoor app, your goal should be that no one gets on the internet without seeing your plane.

I have no idea if your plane is priced competitively, so I won’t comment on that.

 

[blueskyMD]

Ok, as someone who bought a straight tail Lance back in Jan this year I'll tell you how I'd have evaluated this listing.

Airframe time is on the high side but not extreme, prop time is I think approaching TBO, engine time is a bit over mid-time. None of those things would run me off. The airplane has ADS-B and nice avionics which are I think your best selling point. The airplane also has club seating which is what most people buying a PA-32 are going to want. Unfortunately it's also a T-tail which is less desirable. Also what's with the pad on the pilot's seat? Overall, the paint and interior look good. If I was still shopping I might have looked into this one, I don't think the asking price is out of line but I'd probably have tried to get you to come down because of the T-tail and higher times.

My guess would be this is summer and most people who were ready and eager to buy already found the plane they wanted and are out flying and the right person just hasn't come along. Best time of year to sell is early spring. Maybe try to link to the PA-32 group on facebook and list some other places like controller. There are also brokers out there who can probably get it sold for a price. Good luck.

Thanks for the response
About T tail : its a definitely OWT. After you make about 20 landings you will forget that you have T tail. It will become second nature to adjust to the personality of the airplane. I have made close to 1500 landings in this plane and never felt a lack of elevator authority on flare.
About the buying season : its true that its late for east coasters but in SW and SE US good flying season will start in October-November.
Brokers will be the choice after trying for couple of months

 

[blueskyMD]

Quick glance shows spelling mistakes as well as capitalization ones. You need to tighten up the copy.

Here's a quick revamp on the last part of the ad, but still needs some word work:

Paint is 10 years old, with some areas having been freshened up.

Knots 2 U wing tips with LEDs. Position lights and landing lights are LEDs.

Rosen visors.

Interior is 10 years old, in nice condition.

Club seating with center console.

Fire extinguisher mounted in forward cabin.



This is a well maintained Lance, and nicely equipped for IFR flight.

Log books are complete with detailed maintenance history.

All good points
I said interior is in acceptable condition to be honest with potential buyer. I felt that I should present the airplane the way I will see if I am a buyer

 

[blueskyMD]

What’s wrong is you’re selling a beautiful Lance to go rotorcraft. That’s what’s wrong. Nice plane though. If I were in the market for a Lance I’d look seriously at this one.

The Lance is just too big for me. kids are out of home and have no interest in flying with me. Plus I am tired of flying the same thing all the time and need to do something new. I am eyeball deep into helicopter training and have invested some serious money into training. I will probably finish by mid October and need to continue flying helicopter regularly or I will lose skills.

 

[blueskyMD]

I have been vaguely looking at Lances and had looked at your ad.
i agree with what cowman said except the 7,000+ is more of a turnoff for me. I am looking for AC which your airplane apparently does not have. The 530 is OK but old technology. If it had air and lower TT I might be interested. I don't think it is your ad that is the problem--it's the airplane and the price.

Low time planes are nice provided they have decent airframes. I have seen my share of 2000 something hours AF time hangar queens. Plane that is 40 years old and has 2000 hours most likely spent many years without being flown with birds and pest infestations. My plane had 5800 something hours when I bought. It spent most of the 80s and 90s as a part 121 charter plane with heavy use. Heavy use was matched by impeccable maintenance. When I was looking for a plane back in 2008 I also wanted to have low AF time plane. But when I looked at the logbooks of this plane I was impressed with maintenance history. In the future if I buy another plane ( a twin possibly ? ) I will probably go for a plane with high time AF

 

[Unit74]

All good points
I said interior is in acceptable condition to be honest with potential buyer. I felt that I should present the airplane the way I will see if I am a buyer

Your acceptable is my trashed...... what makes you think it’s acceptable? That’s a conclusion, subjective and not a fact.

Kinda like the guy who posted up his plane for sale with his family in the pics and throw pillows inside. I’m not buying your opinion or fashion statements. Only post hard data not fluff.

 

[mooneyflyfast]

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a 7,000 hour airframe but it is perceived as less desirable by some and therefore would be harder to sell. I didn't mean to give offense but you asked for honest responses. Right or wrong I think a low time airframe sells for more money and quicker than a higher time one.

 

[blueskyMD]

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a 7,000 hour airframe but it is perceived as less desirable by some and therefore would be harder to sell. I didn't mean to give offense but you asked for honest responses. Right or wrong I think a low time airframe sells for more money and quicker than a higher time one.

No offence taken.
I agree with you 100 % and I fully understand that its the weakest selling point of my plane. But as I become more familiar with GA I realize that low AFT is overrated.

 

[blueskyMD]

Your acceptable is my trashed...... what makes you think it’s acceptable? That’s a conclusion, subjective and not a fact.

Kinda like the guy who posted up his plane for sale with his family in the pics and throw pillows inside. I’m not buying your opinion or fashion statements. Only post hard data not fluff.

Good way of thinking
i will change that

 

[GRG55]

Low time planes are nice provided they have decent airframes. I have seen my share of 2000 something hours AF time hangar queens. Plane that is 40 years old and has 2000 hours most likely spent many years without being flown with birds and pest infestations. My plane had 5800 something hours when I bought. It spent most of the 80s and 90s as a part 121 charter plane with heavy use. Heavy use was matched by impeccable maintenance. When I was looking for a plane back in 2008 I also wanted to have low AF time plane. But when I looked at the logbooks of this plane I was impressed with maintenance history. In the future if I buy another plane ( a twin possibly ? ) I will probably go for a plane with high time AF

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a 7,000 hour airframe but it is perceived as less desirable by some and therefore would be harder to sell. I didn't mean to give offense but you asked for honest responses. Right or wrong I think a low time airframe sells for more money and quicker than a higher time one.

When I bought my Aztec it had higher time than quite a few of the others I surveyed. It was about the only one I came across that had never sat idle for any extended period of time since new. And I put that in the positive column.

As the fleet ages, and the years go by, buyers are going to have to adjust their expectation as to what defines a "low time" airframe. Damage history and maintenance history are becoming pretty important, as the cost of trying to bring a neglected, low time hangar queen back to airworthy status escalates.

 

[chartbundle]

As usual I'm in agreement with others. Photos, photos, photos. One good one of the panel where every instrument is clear and easy to see(or at most 2, one left and one right). I hated trying to read listings and then correlate it with the photos, is that portable GPS included? The Headsets? The sunglasses? 4 photos on the 45s with the entire plane visible in each, all the way to and including the wingtip, ideally without a cluttered background. A front 'above' photo is nice where the top of the wing and fuselage is visible. The overall view of the interior is dark and hard to see, there's no good cockpit view of the pilot and copilot seats. And if you have a couple good panel shots, you can drop the detailed zoomed in ones. Look, there's an aux vac and an ELT switch, yea, don't care.

Why yes, lack of good photos is one of my pet peeves, if it's a house or a plane.

 

[Shepherd]

I read your ad to a buddy who is looking to upgrade from his 140.
The first words out of his mouth were: "A 'T' tail. Not sure about that."
Therein lies the problem.
Everybody knows somebody, who knows somebody, who crashed/died/went broke/disappeared over the Bermuda Triangle in a T tail.
Of course no one actually has any first hand experience. Which is a shame. They are a solid aircraft and do what they are supposed to do very well. And it even has multiple doors!
Good luck.

 

[hindsight2020]

I read your ad to a buddy who is looking to upgrade from his 140.
The first words out of his mouth were: "A 'T' tail. Not sure about that."
Therein lies the problem.
Everybody knows somebody, who knows somebody, who crashed/died/went broke/disappeared over the Bermuda Triangle in a T tail.
Of course no one actually has any first hand experience. Which is a shame. They are a solid aircraft and do what they are supposed to do very well. And it even has multiple doors!
Good luck.

I've seen no evidence that T-tail Lances are not selling, or selling for a significant discount. I know, because I've made offers. No dice. They're going around the same rate as conv tails. The only ones I've seen display some semblance of discount/illiquidity are the turbo lances. To be fair, I've not made offers on those, as I'm not inclined to undergo the long term ownership of a TIO-540.

 

[GRG55]

About the buying season : its true that its late for east coasters but in SW and SE US good flying season will start in October-November.
Brokers will be the choice after trying for couple of months

It's summer, kids out of school, vacation travel, beaches and babes, whatever.

As others posted, refine the pitch, improve the pictures and get it out there. Everywhere. Barnstormers, the works. These are solid, loadhauler family airplanes and there's a market out there for them.

 

[blueskyMD]

I read your ad to a buddy who is looking to upgrade from his 140.
The first words out of his mouth were: "A 'T' tail. Not sure about that."
Therein lies the problem.
Everybody knows somebody, who knows somebody, who crashed/died/went broke/disappeared over the Bermuda Triangle in a T tail.
Of course no one actually has any first hand experience. Which is a shame. They are a solid aircraft and do what they are supposed to do very well. And it even has multiple doors!
Good luck.

Yeah right like Straight tail Lances had never crashed.
Here is what I found out about T tail Lance after flying her for 1300 + hours
1.You get used to the personality of the airplane very quickly.
2. It does require little tug on elevator controls on TO and rotation speed is 75 KTs which is somewhat higher and won't lift off the runway on its own like straight tail planes ( I flew straight tail arrow II for 500 hours before Lance ) . The good news is though , once it breaks ground it will not settle back down.
3. This plane is nose heavy and with 2 big guys sitting in front it requires lots of aft trim on TO and landings. I use almost full aft trim on TO and landings unless I have lots of weight in the back.
4. May be it does require more runway on TO and landings. I do not know other Lances to compare with but according to POH, on standard day at sea level TO roll is about 1600 something feet and landing around 1500 . With 1000 + airports in US with runway length of 3000 + feet I have no reason or intention of going to airports with less than 2500 ft runway.
5.According to some websites T tail is about 2 kts ( I don't know how you measure that ) faster than straight tail Lance presumably because tail is out of prop wash creating less drag.
6. I have heard that T tail are more prone to tail plane stall in icing conditions and could be more difficult to recover from it. Over the years I have accumulated small amount of ice on few occasions and never had problem.

 

[blueskyMD]

The only think I found odd was the comment at the end about the weather capabilities of the airplane. I didn’t see any sort of deicing on it (even prop deice) so I’m not sure where that comes from.

Well, very few single engine GA airplanes can handle ice and my plane can not
What I meant was that this plane has more weather capability than average. A 2 axis AP with glide slope hold working in conjunction Aspen , WAAS GPS and GPSS steering makes low approaches a breeze. I do not hesitate to initiate an ILS/RNAV approach when reported wx says 200 Ft ceiling and 2 Mile visibility. And there is a standby electric vacuum pump.
Also with NexRad from ADS-B , storm scope and looking outside window most of the time I have been successful maneuvering around the storms.
Here is the flight track of my last flight yesterday :

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N31573

 

[blueskyMD]

As usual I'm in agreement with others. Photos, photos, photos. One good one of the panel where every instrument is clear and easy to see(or at most 2, one left and one right). I hated trying to read listings and then correlate it with the photos, is that portable GPS included? The Headsets? The sunglasses? 4 photos on the 45s with the entire plane visible in each, all the way to and including the wingtip, ideally without a cluttered background. A front 'above' photo is nice where the top of the wing and fuselage is visible. The overall view of the interior is dark and hard to see, there's no good cockpit view of the pilot and copilot seats. And if you have a couple good panel shots, you can drop the detailed zoomed in ones. Look, there's an aux vac and an ELT switch, yea, don't care.

Why yes, lack of good photos is one of my pet peeves, if it's a house or a plane.

Thanks
I will do that

 

[Shepherd]

Yeah right like Straight tail Lances had never crashed.
Here is what I found out about T tail Lance after flying her for 1300 + hours
1.You get used to the personality of the airplane very quickly.
2. It does require little tug on elevator controls on TO and rotation speed is 75 KTs which is somewhat higher and won't lift off the runway on its own like straight tail planes ( I flew straight tail arrow II for 500 hours before Lance ) . The good news is though , once it breaks ground it will not settle back down.
3. This plane is nose heavy and with 2 big guys sitting in front it requires lots of aft trim on TO and landings. I use almost full aft trim on TO and landings unless I have lots of weight in the back.
4. May be it does require more runway on TO and landings. I do not know other Lances to compare with but according to POH, on standard day at sea level TO roll is about 1600 something feet and landing around 1500 . With 1000 + airports in US with runway length of 3000 + feet I have no reason or intention of going to airports with less than 2500 ft runway.
5.According to some websites T tail is about 2 kts ( I don't know how you measure that ) faster than straight tail Lance presumably because tail is out of prop wash creating less drag.
6. I have heard that T tail are more prone to tail plane stall in icing conditions and could be more difficult to recover from it. Over the years I have accumulated small amount of ice on few occasions and never had problem.

Exactly my point.
They are an outstanding aircraft. But way back in the day, someone wrote an article about a problem with a particular aircraft with a T tail (long before the Lance was designed), and the myth "came alive". Now the ignorant paint every type of T tail with the same brush.

 

[Tantalum]

Before I was flying the plane I'm flying now I was interested in the T-Tail Lance.. cool plane and I'm drawn to things that are just a little different.. the T Tail would have afforded that and with the ability to carry 6, or have lots of payload options, it was an appealing plane

Outside of what the others posted I don't see anything "wrong" with your posting.. the avionics are fairly capable and it's obvious the plane was in the hands of a loving owner. Challenge is finding someone who wants to buy an older, large plane, with a stigmatized tail

My only advice to you, would be to try and do some local networking, I've known three people who sold planes (an Archer, a Cirrus, and a Mooney) all without actually listing their plane on line or going through a broker.. just active in various Facebook flying groups and very active in the local airport flying community.. someone mentioned they're interested in selling their plane, word gets around, and before all these people had buyers

 

[Rooney Freimund]

I have listed my airplane on TAP for almost 3 weeks and there is not a single inquiry about the plane. I want to sale the plane and move to rotorcraft world by the end of October. I thought market is pretty good for singles. I am looking for ideas to generate interest in the plane and expedite the sale. Here is the link to the listing.
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...l=LANCE+II&listing_id=2361759&s-type=aircraft

I will appreciate your suggestions . Feel free to make an honest critic of airplane or me. I can handle it.

You have a nice plane. To me, the prop time @ 2,165 is a turn off. The vref not including your Aspen, wing tips, standby pump, and electric trim is $103,800. $115-120k seems fair, but I don't want to drop that and then have to spend $12k-ish on a new prop. My CFO (wife) would not approve of my decision making...

Good Luck to you!

 

[Caramon13]

Brokers will be the choice after trying for couple of months

Think carefully about using a broker. When I sold my aircraft I had JUST locked into a contract with a broker and the buyer found it on some other site. Because I was under contract I still had to pay a % to the broker and they did nothing but write the agreement. Which was unnecessary since the buyer just paid cash and was totally on-board with the plane as a whole. Did the sale in a day, wire transfer, keys, done. Going with a broker doesn't always mean a quicker sale, and you also end up losing out on some of the profit too..

 

[hindsight2020]

Think carefully about using a broker. When I sold my aircraft I had JUST locked into a contract with a broker and the buyer found it on some other site. Because I was under contract I still had to pay a % to the broker and they did nothing but write the agreement. Which was unnecessary since the buyer just paid cash and was totally on-board with the plane as a whole. Did the sale in a day, wire transfer, keys, done. Going with a broker doesn't always mean a quicker sale, and you also end up losing out on some of the profit too..

Indeed. Matter of fact, you would also lose me as a buyer if you used a broker, since I couldn't take advantage of Texas occasional sales provision, and would increase my acquisition cost almost 7%. non-starter for a toy for me. Individual sale? No problem. So there's certainly opportunity costs for sellers who use brokers beyond what meets the eye. YMMV.

 

[Sinistar]

I would revise pictures as well. Very similar to others:

The biggest pics that jump out as “old” are the curtains, can they be removed for pictures?
Definitely get rid of the pilot seat cushion
Get rid of the umbrella
Get rid of the headset
Maybe place 2 nice stainless steel coffee mugs in the rear console.
Use a flash to light the interior shots
You are missing that great exterior side angle shot.
I think the T Tail is a great look but no great shot to show it off.
Need good shots of both pilot seats.
Too bad you can’t show stuff like a big cooler, golf clubs, bikes, modern, luggage etc just outside by that great back door.

This is a cool plane and with better pictures will appeal to a slightly younger buyer who digs the 6 seats and club seating. That same guy shows a picture with the blue seat cushion and old window shades to his wife for approval and they’re moving on.

Maybe move you initial price down some from $129k, seems like you’re saying you want $130k and won’t budge. This listing being around $125k will give buyers the impression they’ll get you down to $117k after haggling.

 

[blueskyMD]

The biggest pics that jump out as “old” are the curtains, can they be removed for pictures?

Absolutely they can be removed for picture as well as forever. But I thought they kind of add to the comfort and style of the airplane.
But I will remove them and take new shots.

 

[blueskyMD]

You have a nice plane. To me, the prop time @ 2,165 is a turn off. The vref not including your Aspen, wing tips, standby pump, and electric trim is $103,800. $115-120k seems fair, but I don't want to drop that and then have to spend $12k-ish on a new prop. My CFO (wife) would not approve of my decision making...

Well I thought about ovehauling prop before putting on market. The props by the way are in great shape because plane flies regularly. I asked that question on this forum and consensus was to leave them alone since tinkering with props working so good will create new issues and set the asking price with prop needing overhaul. Thats what I am trying to do. BTW just reduced asking price to 119000

 

[hindsight2020]

Well I thought about ovehauling prop before putting on market. The props by the way are in great shape because plane flies regularly. I asked that question on this forum and consensus was to leave them alone since tinkering with props working so good will create new issues and set the asking price with prop needing overhaul. Thats what I am trying to do. BTW just reduced asking price to 119000

I believe you'll start to see movement at that price. Don't touch the prop. Good luck.