What a bureaucratic nightmare to fly GA in Europe

[MountainDude]

This video makes me appreciate what we have in USA and Canada.
We must work hard and rely on AOPA and EAA to prevent this kind of bureaucracy from taking over.

 

[Shepherd]

 

[Bell206]

This video makes me appreciate what we have in USA and Canada.

If you think that is bad you should see the maintenance side they deal with over there. It was only recently that EASA allowed certain private aircraft owners to handle the airworthiness requirements for their aircraft. Prior you had to pay a 3rd party to ensure the annual was performed, ADs complied with, etc.

 

[MountainDude]

If you think that is bad you should see the maintenance side they deal with over there. It was only recently that EASA allowed certain private aircraft owners to handle the airworthiness requirements for their aircraft. Prior you had to pay a 3rd party to ensure the annual was performed, ADs complied with, etc.

Yep, that sounds horrible.

 

[Martin Pauly]

We must work hard and rely on AOPA and EAA to prevent this kind of bureaucracy from taking over.

Please let's all go a step further, and not just rely on AOPA and EAA but actively support them by being members. Our membership fees and our donations to the AOPA PAC help keep this kind of crap from coming over here.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: The USA is paradise on earth for general aviation pilots, but few pilots here understand just how good we have it. (How do I know? I flew outside of the US for many years before flying here; I've seen both sides of this coin.) Our freedom of flight is under threat all the time, and AOPA is the strongest voice we have defending our interests. It's much more than a magazine subscription - an AOPA membership is an investment into our freedom of flight.

- Martin

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I only made it 11 minutes into the video before I realized I'd rather shoot myself than fly GA in Europe. Maybe that's the intention.

 

[MountainDude]

Please let's all go a step further, and not just rely on AOPA and EAA but actively support them by being members. Our membership fees and our donations to the AOPA PAC help keep this kind of crap from coming over here.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: The USA is paradise on earth for general aviation pilots, but few pilots here understand just how good we have it. (How do I know? I flew outside of the US for many years before flying here; I've seen both sides of this coin.) Our freedom of flight is under threat all the time, and AOPA is the strongest voice we have defending our interests. It's much more than a magazine subscription - an AOPA membership is an investment into our freedom of flight.

- Martin

Martin, I would love to give AOPA my money and support them on all forums if they would simply provide a yearly list of all accomplishments for that year. Instead of that, they provide constant promises, goals, and remind us they introduced basicmed many many years ago. They need to tell us how they spend $50M every single year. Once I see they are spending their money wisely, I would be happy to pay the dues. Paying their CEO $1.5M per year is a very bad case for their efficiency.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Just awful.

 

[WDD]

I used to work for a Belgium company. I'm having flash backs to this "European Process" way of doing things. So many over complicated processes, processes for the sake of process, etc. Much pride in doing things vs getting things done.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

The exact reason (or let's say a big part of it) why I never liked it there although I was born in Europe. I managed to immigrate to North America luckily but thanks for sharing. Keeps things in perspective when I think about complaining about the odd thing that bugs me over here lol.

 

[Tusayan]

The slot and PPR nonsense covered in the video is only part of it. As mentioned, aircraft maintenance is equally crazy. Legally binding preplanned maintenance programs need to be filed for each small aircraft, used serviceable parts are essentially illegal in most circumstances, multiple people are required to sign off on some routine maintenance, certified aircraft types require airworthiness support organizations or they lose their TC and these items are in addition to the above mentioned third party CAMO maintenance oversight requirement (directed per the individual aircraft plan) that is still mandated today unless the plane is never used for e.g. flight training. In many counties homebuilts are individually certified and/or built to an approved detailed configuration and there is no individual experimentation or Experimental category.

Airports are required to keep written records of every flight, and in some countries must be attended when aircraft operate - also meaning off airport landings are generally illegal, even if you own the land. Fire departments at the airport are often mandatory, and landing fees are levied based on the aircraft’s noise level. Pilot credentials are often checked before you can walk on the ramp, to establish that you are 'crew'. Reflective vests are often required just to walk to and from your plane, even at very small inactive airports. Often you cannot start the engine on the ramp without ATC clearance. Fuel taxes push Avgas to $11/gallon or so. Aircraft maintenance logbook entries are required for every flight, in the case of a twin that means at least three aircraft logbook entries for every flight, plus the mandatory pilot’s logbook entry. A journey log is also required to document where the plane has been and who was flying it, auditable by authority. I think for a twin that’s five logbook entries per flight.

Within some countries and for any flight between countries a flight plan is mandatory, within a few others continuous radio contact is also required everywhere. Many or most airports have mandatory approach plates for VFR arrivals that lead you all over the countryside. The airspace structure is a disaster and charts are poor, leading to acceptance of full time ATC interaction, however VFR clearances through e.g. Class D airspace are subject to holds and very frequent refusal. What we would consider routine pop-up IFR clearances are frowned upon to the extent of being illegal in some countries. Pilots trained in this environment think this is how things are and that the simple practices for US-normal flying from place to place are somehow vaguely irresponsible. They’ve never done it, and so there must be something faulty with all that ad hoc freedom. Or they are just bitter. It goes on and on.

I also immigrated to the US from Europe and it was the best thing that happened to me. I watch current events and opinions slowly pushing us under the same kind of pointless, arbitrary power here and for me it is distressing. I would surely encourage everybody to engage themselves in pushing back.

 

[Velocity173]

GA was pretty dead in Germany when I was stationed there. There’s a few cool LSAs that I believe they refer to as micro lights that are popular but no where near what we have here. I visited the factory that makes the D4 Fascination and it was on the level of a small time EAB facility here. Went flying in one and had a blast. Sailplanes are thriving though. I’ve had to dodge a few of those flying on XCs.

 

[Katamarino]

Man, there's a lot of negativity here.

Yes, flying in Europe *on average* is less convenient, and more expensive. However there are many parts, and countless little air strips, which are absolutely fantastic for GA. I grew up and then flew in Europe for many years and some of the best flying I've done has been there; little French country air strips, farm strip flying in the UK, lunches in Belgium, exploring new cities across Germany and Eastern Europe, flying to the beach for picnics in the NL.

There are multitudes of new countries to visit, so much more varied and interesting than the US; from Scandinavia down through Western Europe to the Med, across to Eastern Europe. There are many more interesting destinations than the US, and the history and architecture is wonderful. Even hopping down to North Africa is entirely practical.

If you just fly boring circuits, or back and forth to the same old destinations, then Europe is clearly worse. Even for touring, having all these different countries with different regs, as well as challenging airspace, means you have to approach your flying with much more discipline than in the US. In southern Europe in particular airport opening times, fees and fuel availability can be a challenge. But for a competent and adventurous pilot, the rewards are worth the hassle. US flying is easy; but European flying maintains interest and novelty much, much longer.

Now let's not get started on Africa and Asia...! If you think Europe is bad, they'll blow your mind.

Every one of the below are taken from flying trips in Europe. Flying there isn't for everyone, it needs a lot of competence and skills that just aren't developed in the US, but it's well worth it.

 

[Tusayan]

Nobody said Europe isn't an interesting place to visit or vacation, I do it once or twice a year still. The issue is that unless you live on an European island, most of the interesting places in Europe are much easier to visit by means other than GA because GA in Europe is a dystopian mess. The pilot "competence" and "discipline" you describe as being needed might otherwise be described as the need for obsessive, time consuming planning and having the patience to maneuver within ever-varying and nonsensical procedures that have nothing to do with flying, or the skills related to flying. This is a rationalization for the lack of basic infrastructure and for pointless, unreasonable regulation making simple things difficult and very expensive for no proper reason. European GA is an object lesson of how bad things can get in supposedly civilized areas (i.e. not Africa where the expectations are low) and where US GA could quietly end up over time unless we are vigilant in preventing it.

My view based on experience is that Europe is a reasonable place to fly if you stay within one country in a nationally regulated non-EASA microlight or similar aircraft. Mostly you'll fly between fairly remote grass airfields, staying under the radar literally and figuratively and flying just for the joy of flying. For example France is good for its size and relative lack of nonsense (assuming you can speak French on the radio) and Italy is good for its geography and climate, much like California in that way. Either can be traversed in a 100 HP plane, for which the fuel flow is still affordable even at European prices. Otherwise, for 'going places' flying, to see anything other than airfields and countryside, the utility isn't there and the procedures, rigidity, cost and hassle make other means of travel a better idea. One suspects that this is exactly the situation that European authorities intend to create.

 

[Dana]

Flying there isn't for everyone, it needs a lot of competence and skills that just aren't developed in the US, but it's well worth it.

If you're interested enough and motivated enough and enjoy the game enough to acquire those skills. I wouldn't be worth it to me, but then I was never interested in getting an instrument rating, either. No doubt it's one of the reasons the pilot population in Europe is is much smaller than in the US. Of course for a man who's flown around the world, the relatively civilized European bureaucracy is probably a yawn.

My view based on experience is that Europe is a reasonable place to fly if you stay within one country in a nationally regulated microlight or similar aircraft. Mostly you'll fly between fairly remote grass airfields, staying under the radar literally and figuratively and flying just for the joy of flying.

Right, that's how I'd be flying if I was flying over there. Travel isn't the reason I fly, but I do use the plane for travel occasionally. The difference is that when I want to, I can get in my plane and fly over an area 18 times the size of France, nearly the size of all of Europe, without getting permission from or talking to anybody at all.

For those who would be interested in a plane mainly for travel, I get the impression Europe's rail network makes more sense for the kind of distances that make sense for planes in the US (too far to drive, too close for or not served by airlines).

 

[hindsight2020]

In fairness to EU, both Caricom and Central American countries' GA is a basket case. On the latter two, it's mostly a bilking of the rich "private flyer", not as much a "too many countries, too small an airspace" volume kerfuffle like EU appears to be.

Brazil appears a sleeper on this conversation. No 51% rule down there for EAB from my understanding, and their LSA rules are avant-garde compared to ours. Large enough country to afford piston regional travel without having to deal with international paperwork hassles, which again it's what I blame for the majority of this complaint, in the macro.

 

[Stewartb]

Walter Extra seems to do okay in that environment.

 

[MountainDude]

@Katamarino The point of the post was not that it's impossible to fly in Europe; with enough dedication, discipline, time, and money, it can be done.

The point was that there is simply too much unnecessary bureaucracy, making GA flying across Europe time-consuming, expensive, uncertain, and stressful.

I love flying in the USA and Canada, where I can spend my time enjoying the scenery and destinations, and less time planning, announcing, finding and filling out forms, and stressing over the timelines and uncertainties.

We need to push back on the unnecessary bureaucracy every chance we have.

 

[MountainDude]

Nobody said Europe isn't an interesting place to visit or vacation, I do it once or twice a year still. The issue is that unless you live on an European island, most of the interesting places in Europe are much easier to visit by means other than GA because GA in Europe is a dystopian mess. The pilot "competence" and "discipline" you describe as being needed might otherwise be described as the need for obsessive, time consuming planning and having the patience to maneuver within ever-varying and nonsensical procedures that have nothing to do with flying, or the skills related to flying. This is a rationalization for the lack of basic infrastructure and for pointless, unreasonable regulation making simple things difficult and very expensive for no proper reason. European GA is an object lesson of how bad things can get in supposedly civilized areas (i.e. not Africa where the expectations are low) and where US GA could quietly end up over time unless we are vigilant in preventing it.

My view based on experience is that Europe is a reasonable place to fly if you stay within one country in a nationally regulated non-EASA microlight or similar aircraft. Mostly you'll fly between fairly remote grass airfields, staying under the radar literally and figuratively and flying just for the joy of flying. For example France is good for its size and relative lack of nonsense (assuming you can speak French on the radio) and Italy is good for its geography and climate, much like California in that way. Either can be traversed in a 100 HP plane, for which the fuel flow is still affordable even at European prices. Otherwise, for 'going places' flying, to see anything other than airfields and countryside, the utility isn't there and the procedures, rigidity, cost and hassle make other means of travel a better idea. One suspects that this is exactly the situation that European authorities intend to create.

Very well said

 

[midlifeflyer]

OTOH, EASA allows private pilots to post shared expense flights and potential passengers to sign up for them using an online flight sharing platform. See WINGLY for an example.

 

[Tusayan]

Obviously cost sharing rules become an issue when flying expenses are so high that you can’t afford to do it alone. Otherwise nobody thinks about it and it doesn’t become an issue. How many people ride two up on motorcycle rides to save money? Maybe it happens in the third world.