What’s Your Time Source for Logging Flights?

snglecoil said:
ForeFlight has that option too. It is definitely the more accurate way to do it vs. the automatic flight log recording algorithm.
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Ok, great. I suspect though, that the "automatic lousy detection" is the default setting, because I'm pretty sure every one of my Foreflight logbook users doesn't know there's an option. Or if they do, well, "automatic" sounds great and easy, except it doesn't work.
 
I find Foreflight to generally overstate the times by a fairly severe amount.. my understanding is that anytime the plane is moving under its own power for the purpose of flight (and obviously flying) is loggable. Hobbes has always been a convenient number and easy to use and track (not tach, hobbes). I also pay by hobbes which makes it that much easier

If I was going with Foreflight I'd have at least 25% to 35% more time in my book.. at least based on what I've seen with Foreflight's estimates

Or you can just look at the clock when you get in the plane and when you get out.

Overall if you're looking for ways to fluff your time you're really only cheating yourself of legitimate experience..
 
HighCountry said:
grandfather+watch+001.JPG
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It doubles as a step counter!
 
PS - logging taxi time always felt silly to me.. especially in a busier airport. It's not uncommon on a weekend at MYF to wait 10-15 minutes for takeoff.. and sometimes longer if you need an IFR clearance. Not to mention many students' and new pilots spending 25 minutes in the runup area reading the same 172N checklist 56 times "seat belt on, air vents adjusted" type nonsense

If I'm being brutally honest only actual time in the air should count. There's a checklist in the Aztec that has a "start timer" item as you roll onto the runway for takeoff.. maybe that was how they did it in the 1960s??
 
RussR said:
...I think EVERYONE would agree that if the engine isn't even running, it's definitely not flight time....
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I guess I'd better deduct 0.1 for that time when I had to make a dead-stick landing! :)
 
Tantalum said:
PS - logging taxi time always felt silly to me.. especially in a busier airport. It's not uncommon on a weekend at MYF to wait 10-15 minutes for takeoff.. and sometimes longer if you need an IFR clearance. Not to mention many students' and new pilots spending 25 minutes in the runup area reading the same 172N checklist 56 times "seat belt on, air vents adjusted" type nonsense

If I'm being brutally honest only actual time in the air should count. There's a checklist in the Aztec that has a "start timer" item as you roll onto the runway for takeoff.. maybe that was how they did it in the 1960s??
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Someone has it figured out. :D
 
Always hobbs for me...except a very few flights in planes without hobbs...in which case it was tach time.
I've always been a renter and that's how the rental rates were always figured.
Sadly I was never good at remembering to note the actual times. If I noted it when taking the runway I'd forget to note it when I turned off after landing.

And I've never played with FF, but I did using Garmin Pilot. It's log was Janky at best! Sometimes it would log it fairly well. Other times it would not log at all. and a few times it would log part of it. Definitely not trustworthy....
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, I disagree with their definition just like I disagree with their definition of compensation. Flying is flying. Taxiing is taxiing. and goodwill is not compensation.
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I agree. Always thought logging taxi time for the purpose of flight was silly. Even logging til coming to a rest doesn’t make sense to me. All of that movement on the surface could be a substantial amount of time.

Other than a helicopter with skids, the whole taxi time should be eliminated from flight time.
 
I log the Hobbs. That's the hours I'm being charged to use the plane, so that's the time I'm putting in the log.
 
Hours in general only have so much overall value.. someone with 900 hours but who picked that up over 30 years is not comparable to someone who did 500 in 3 years.. not to mention the type of flying.. are you doing cargo alone at night in a piston or pulling banners on a beach.. or are you hitting the practice area with students or doing the same VFR burger run each weekend? Each will impart a different set of skills, which depending on the mission, may or may not be more useful than the other guy
 
You probably make 20 times the amount of actions and decisions in the 5 minutes taxiing to the runway than you do in an hour of droning along on the autopilot, but somehow that time is so much more important? Yes it’s different, but I think both are valuable.
 
^but by that logic we should also be able to count the time just moving the plane from one hangar to another
 
Tantalum said:
^but by that logic we should also be able to count the time just moving the plane from one hangar to another
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what rating do you need to do that?
 
Tantalum said:
^but by that logic we should also be able to count the time just moving the plane from one hangar to another
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Not the same in my opinion. You’re not really performing any duties pertinent to preparing for flight, for example, I’ve never heard of anyone having an accident because they forgot to set the trim or flaps repositioning on the airport with no intention of leaving the ground.
 
The reason that the FAA allows logging time from engine start to engine stop is so they can whack us if we do a Martha Lunken, and the engine we just started pulls our plane into another plane.

That becomes a reportable event, as it is part of the "flight".

Many accidents occur before the runway is entered, or after it has been vacated, and the FAA wants a report on all of them.

Personally, I log local flying from engine start to engine stop, as my instructors told me too. but cross countries are runway to runway. Thus, I can look at my log book to find how long the actual flying time was for the previous trips to a repeat destination.

80% of my logged time is cross country, usually more than 500 NM from home base, and as great as 5.000 NM..
 
Oh man, I didn't want to get sucked into this, but apparently I can't stay away.

If you asked any non-pilot what they thought the definition of "flight time" is, I bet almost certainly they'd say "from takeoff to landing". Because, you know, the word "flight" is in there. And that is truthfully the most logical definition.

Now, the FAA decades ago could have just defined it as such. But no, they made it this ridiculous wording of "moves under its own power for the purpose of flight", which of course is vague and ambiguous and causes all these discussions. And then non-pilot lawyers get to tell us what it really means.

Engine start to engine stop is, of course, a well-accepted method. And that's usually fine enough, although I have watched clients put 30 minutes on the Hobbs before taking off, even at a simple uncontrolled field. Maybe 10 minutes of that is taxi, so 20 minutes is running and re-running checklists, setting up the GPS, etc. Should that really fall under the definition of "flight time"? How much time sitting down there in the runup area should be allowable? An hour? 4 hours followed by one lap around the pattern? You may laugh, but that kind of thing DOES happen.

I also don't buy the argument that "it should count as flight time because it's important". Well, so is the drive to the airport. So is the preflight. So is making sure I am well rested. But that doesn't mean I should log it all as flight time. There are lots of important things we do that don't count for anything.

Mechanics taxi airplanes between hangars all the time. Sure it's important to be safe, but you don't even have to have any kind of certificate to do that. Anybody can taxi an airplane. You could have your butler taxi the plane to the runup area and get everything set for you, you just hop in and take off. That doesn't mean the butler gets to log flight time (although maybe they could, because it was "for the purpose of flight", well sort of).

Yes, regulations do allow (or pretty much allow within rounding) the "engine start to stop" logging method. But that doesn't at all mean it's logical, or right, or result in worthwhile time logged.

And while I don't agree with, that is how I log my flights. Why? Because that's what my very first CFI did, and I'm addicted to primacy.
 
RussR said:
Oh man, I didn't want to get sucked into this, but apparently I can't stay away.

If you asked any non-pilot what they thought the definition of "flight time" is, I bet almost certainly they'd say "from takeoff to landing". Because, you know, the word "flight" is in there. And that is truthfully the most logical definition.

Now, the FAA decades ago could have just defined it as such. But no, they made it this ridiculous wording of "moves under its own power for the purpose of flight", which of course is vague and ambiguous and causes all these discussions. And then non-pilot lawyers get to tell us what it really means.

Engine start to engine stop is, of course, a well-accepted method. And that's usually fine enough, although I have watched clients put 30 minutes on the Hobbs before taking off, even at a simple uncontrolled field. Maybe 10 minutes of that is taxi, so 20 minutes is running and re-running checklists, setting up the GPS, etc. Should that really fall under the definition of "flight time"? How much time sitting down there in the runup area should be allowable? An hour? 4 hours followed by one lap around the pattern? You may laugh, but that kind of thing DOES happen.

I also don't buy the argument that "it should count as flight time because it's important". Well, so is the drive to the airport. So is the preflight. So is making sure I am well rested. But that doesn't mean I should log it all as flight time. There are lots of important things we do that don't count for anything.

Mechanics taxi airplanes between hangars all the time. Sure it's important to be safe, but you don't even have to have any kind of certificate to do that. Anybody can taxi an airplane. You could have your butler taxi the plane to the runup area and get everything set for you, you just hop in and take off. That doesn't mean the butler gets to log flight time (although maybe they could, because it was "for the purpose of flight", well sort of).

Yes, regulations do allow (or pretty much allow within rounding) the "engine start to stop" logging method. But that doesn't at all mean it's logical, or right, or result in worthwhile time logged.

And while I don't agree with, that is how I log my flights. Why? Because that's what my very first CFI did, and I'm addicted to primacy.
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If you’re that passionate about it, I’m surprised you still log it.

I don’t understand the concern. It’s not like people are fighting over jobs and the .2 makes a difference. Take a look around…there’s RJ pilots you wouldn’t let borrow your truck. There’s 23-24 year olds getting hired into majors. Some airports have taxi routes and clearances that are more piloting than the average GA’s entire VFR burger run. Like many things in life they had to define a best average.
 
not sure if all logbooks are the same but mine has two columns (ok, it has more than 2), one for PIC and the other for total flight time. I guess you could put start up to shut down under PIC and pattern to pattern in the other. or, since it's your logbook, whatever the fk you want, as long as you can explain every entry.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Not the same in my opinion. You’re not really performing any duties pertinent to preparing for flight, for example, I’ve never heard of anyone having an accident because they forgot to set the trim or flaps repositioning on the airport with no intention of leaving the ground.
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It was sort of tongue in cheek, but there are plenty of ramp rash incidents just moving planes around, so it still requires some critical thought and care.. but no, an errant trim or misplaced control lock won't potentially kill you

For simplicity I put the hobbs time in the logbook, it's easy, consistent, and if anyone ever questions my hours then it's a rational defense. However I do feel like I'm 'cheating' when I'm just sitting there waiting for a squawk and clearance.. but c'est la vie
 
Most often Foreflight. It logs from the beginning of movement until the end of movement. If I didn’t stop at the fuel pump, which is rare since they almost always bring the truck to the hangar and fill up the planes when I put them away, everything else is for the purpose of flight and counts.
 
What’s Your Time Source for Logging Flights?
Elgin_A11.jpg

An Elgin (of Elgin Illinois) A-11 just like this one.
 
Lois said:
What’s Your Time Source for Logging Flights?
Elgin_A11.jpg

An Elgin (of Elgin Illinois) A-11 just like this one.
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Do you start it when you sit in the airplane? When you start the engine? When you enter the runway? When you leave your house?
 
MBDiagMan said:
Most often Foreflight. It logs from the beginning of movement until the end of movement.
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Not for me it doesn’t. If you mean you can review the log and manually pick out the time you started moving and when you stopped then sure, but the “Total Time” reported is the entire duration of the log, which occasionally includes me driving away from the airport if I forgot to stop it manually or close the app when I parked. I don’t see any setting to change whatever odd criteria it uses, but it clearly isn’t using speed, acceleration, or the microphone.

“Flight Time” does appear to accurately capture takeoff to touchdown but that isn’t much help (EdFred excepted).

“Night Time” is apparently completely broken, otherwise that would be a nice feature.

When viewing the log, tap Info at the top to see the other timers.
 
ACARS

Which is funny, because Block Out time is triggered (on my airplane) when the brakes are released and the wheels start turning, and 99% of the time that's via a tug, so the aircraft isn't moving "under its own power."

Please don't rat me out to the FAA.
 
What do all you "flight time only includes time you're in the air" folks log when you're doing touch and goes or stop and goes or full-stop taxi backs?
 
I log Hobbs if it has one, if not I use a watch, engine start to engine off.

For those that only log when the wheels are in the air, if you fly commercially, do you have a CDL so you can "drive" the plane around on the ground? :)
 
RussR said:
...Yes, regulations do allow (or pretty much allow within rounding) the "engine start to stop" logging method. But that doesn't at all mean it's logical, or right, or result in worthwhile time logged.

And while I don't agree with, that is how I log my flights. Why? Because that's what my very first CFI did, and I'm addicted to primacy.
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I like it because it's easy to do. For people who don't like it, there's no law that says they MUST log time on the ground, as far as I know.
 
How about this one. I’m pretty sure it’s similar at other airlines, but correct me if I’m wrong. We log flight time from brake release and/or all doors closed to brake set/main cabin door open. Which means, you could have everything buttoned up, and have a congested ramp and sit for 30 minutes and still collect flight time, even though the jet is clearly not being moved under its own power. I don’t know of any pilot that subtracts this time from their logbook
 
Tantalum said:
by itself it doesn't, but after 100, 200, 300.. flights it does add up
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I don’t think it would matter as far getting a job though. I knew guys in the Army who always added .1 per flight to their civ logs because of the difference in definitions. When a decent helo job requires a min of 2,000 hrs, it’s gonna take more than a bunch of .1s to get there.

I was to lazy to scrounge for a lousy .1 per flight so I just made my civ logbook reflect my military one. :D

997547E8-B72B-42C0-9206-4631BD87017E.jpeg
 
Well now I feel like I've been short changing myself and should go add .2 to all my flights post 2017 (when I got Foreflight)
 
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