Totally agree, surely is the way I was taught to log time.
What’s Your Time Source for Logging Flights?
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ExpressJetter
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ExpressJetter
Then by this logic.... Your takeoff roll it not flying either, your taking off, and same for your landing rollout. You should be logging wheels off to wheels on the ground. I also hope you and your biennial instructor are on the same page, It would be a shame if you didn't "fly" the entire hour............
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
Hourglass, yes I use an hourglass. It is on a gimble. I also round up.
Honestly, after 500 hours TT and you have all of the certs that you want, what does it matter.
Honestly, after 500 hours TT and you have all of the certs that you want, what does it matter.
kaiser
Pattern Altitude
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The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
Your Foreflight log is more than your Hobbs? Funny, when I rent from my flight school, their “Hobbs” is always more…
L39 type rating requires 1000TT and 500 PIC… just sayin
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
OK, L39 is on the Lottery list.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I look at the sky before climbing in the plane, so check on the weather. I'm not even in the plane.
Run up takes literally 30 seconds, check.
12345 departing runway 30, so what, 5 seconds?
No autopilot.
Why would I pay more for insurance when I already have satisfied times for part 135, and have over 700 hours in make and model?
If you don’t care about hours why are you arguing about how to count them?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Correct, which is why I have the flight timer for a ground speed within a few seconds of takeoff speed, and round down to the 0.1 to deduct taxi time/rollout from landing until engine off. Usually fly, legit in the air for 1.2 to 1.3. I also log 0 ground on my flight reviews.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I stated I don't agree with the FAAs stance. You brought up everything else.
Fair enough. As for me, I’m sure as hell not going to argue with the one thing they don’t break your balls about.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I do tell all my students how/what the FAA allows for logging of flight time and give them the option of how they want to log it. I only charge them wheels up to wheels down.
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
I think that the next plane is going to be one of those cheap fun plans that insures hate ( thinking Starduster II). Pay for liability but scrap the plane if I crash and live. Hang a remnant of the airframe on my man cave. If I crash and die, I won't be around to care.
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
Stick around, they are just getting warmed up.
Hobbs
Do you not pay taxes that you don’t agree you should have to?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Just like on the medical. If I was never diagnosed, it didn't happen.
It's not my number.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
So you don't log taxi time as flight time? Because if you do it IS your number.
I have rented a couple of planes in the past that ran the Hobbs whenever the master was on instead of running on oil pressure.
It's not my number because I didn't originate that interpretation of flight time. I generally do things the way I was taught unless and until I become aware of sufficient reason not to. If the FAA starts violating people for doing it that way, that will be sufficient reason. Until then, I have better things to worry about.So you don't log taxi time as flight time? Because if you do it IS your number.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Silence is compliance!
HighCountry
Pre-Flight
ForeFlight track log, the summary screen shows total time which for me is always too long as it includes lengthy periods of 0 Kts on both ends. I don’t see any settings to specify a speed threshold for start/stop total time. On the track log screen clicking Info at the top shows both Total Time and Flight Time. Flight Time appears to accurately reflect wheels up to wheels down and would make EdFred happy but that’s not how I choose to log it. So unless I remember to manually start and stop the ForeFlight timer I would have to review the log and determine first motion and full stop times and do the math. Hobbs is easier and seems pretty close so I use that.
Fwiw Sunday night I left Cheyenne at 6:28 pm wheels up and landed at BJC 40 minutes later. Sunset in Cheyenne was 5:26 pm (CT 5:53pm). The track log Info also lists a value for Night time and for this flight it says 0m00s. Thanks ForeFlight, very helpful.
but that’s not how I choose to log it. So unless I remember to manually start and stop the ForeFlight timer I would have to review the log and determine first motion and full stop times and do the math. Hobbs is easier and seems pretty close so I use that.Fwiw Sunday night I left Cheyenne at 6:28 pm wheels up and landed at BJC 40 minutes later. Sunset in Cheyenne was 5:26 pm (CT 5:53pm). The track log Info also lists a value for Night time and for this flight it says 0m00s. Thanks ForeFlight, very helpful.
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Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Grandfather clock
HighCountry
Pre-Flight
RussR
En-Route
My students that use Foreflight for their logbook ALWAYS seem to be at least 0.2 to 0.3 higher than the engine-running time, as determined by me through one of three methods:
1) the Hobbs, assuming it's wired to an oil pressure switch.
2) Using a watch. It's really not very challenging. 1:12 to 2:37 is 1+25, or call it 1.4.
3) Using Myflightbook, which has a superior method to Foreflight for accuracy, called "press the button to start and press it again to stop."
Foreflight is so often over-estimating the time that it seems like intentional logbook padding (whether or not you agree with @EdFred , I think EVERYONE would agree that if the engine isn't even running, it's definitely not flight time). I don't know what algorithm Foreflight uses for this, but it's so often wrong that in my opinion can't be trusted. Let alone it often tracks the walk into the FBO, drive home, your stop at the liquor store or strip club, etc. It's really terrible.
1) the Hobbs, assuming it's wired to an oil pressure switch.
2) Using a watch. It's really not very challenging. 1:12 to 2:37 is 1+25, or call it 1.4.
3) Using Myflightbook, which has a superior method to Foreflight for accuracy, called "press the button to start and press it again to stop."
Foreflight is so often over-estimating the time that it seems like intentional logbook padding (whether or not you agree with @EdFred , I think EVERYONE would agree that if the engine isn't even running, it's definitely not flight time). I don't know what algorithm Foreflight uses for this, but it's so often wrong that in my opinion can't be trusted. Let alone it often tracks the walk into the FBO, drive home, your stop at the liquor store or strip club, etc. It's really terrible.
kaiser
Pattern Altitude
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The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
I run a Stratus 3 with foreflight. My experience is that the timer engages once you achieve a certain ground speed (I.e. during take off) and the timer count is as of connection to the stratus itself (back at the ramp or wherever). As such, I don’t turn on my stratus until after engine startup. Even doing this, Hobbs is often 0.1 ahead. I do not recall how much of mine is based on user configurable settings.
edit: also, I don’t have GPS on my iPad (which runs my EFB), thus stratus is my only GPS source.
DFH65
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Neither of the planes I usually fly have a Hobbs. Generally I turn on flight tracking in Avare and use that or check my watch when I remember. When I forget I use 1.2 X tach. When I check both they are generally within the rounding error to a 10th. Don't really care about the hours that much anymore. The only rating I would like to get at some point is instrument and since I don't have access to a plane capable of flying IFR I don't see getting a rating I would have trouble keeping current.
Totally agree that FF should not be used to track flight time. It always "pads" actual fight time for me.
I am PIC from the time the motor starts to the time I turn it off and that is what I log.
snglecoil
Pre-takeoff checklist
ForeFlight has that option too. It is definitely the more accurate way to do it vs. the automatic flight log recording algorithm.
I pull then numbers from foreflight when I remember.
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Velocity173
I’ve logged several ways over the years depending on aircraft. Wheels up to shutdown (timer). Hobbs time with WOG switch (skids up / skids down). Hobbs time without WOG switch (airplane).
All versions maybe within .1 / .2 of one another. Not a big deal to matter.
All versions maybe within .1 / .2 of one another. Not a big deal to matter.
OT a little.
At least on my 172 the oil pressure switch that activates the hobbs meter is a wear item and should be replaced periodically long before it leaks or stops working.
At least on my 172 the oil pressure switch that activates the hobbs meter is a wear item and should be replaced periodically long before it leaks or stops working.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Hobbs if it's present. Otherwise whatever works based on what I remembered to do: watch, panel clock, Avare track, MyFlightbook, #of tows, WAG.
Motor6
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No Hobbs and I use tach time for maintenance. I use a Stratus tied to ForeFlight and the track log shows from the time I connect the Stratus and iPad, and sometimes the entire time I sat on the ramp if I forget to turn it off when I land at my destination. I just go in and edit the flight log to remove the 0 speed times at either end and attach it in the electronic logbook. It clearly shows when you begin to taxi after startup.
I always figured the reason behind allowing the logging of the time after the wheels start moving was so those renting planes toward a professional gig would not feel rushed to get into the air instead of taking time to thoroughly check the aircraft before takeoff.
I always figured the reason behind allowing the logging of the time after the wheels start moving was so those renting planes toward a professional gig would not feel rushed to get into the air instead of taking time to thoroughly check the aircraft before takeoff.
GaryM
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I log from when the plane starts moving until it stops moving, or if I forget to note times, I'll use 1.2 x tach if I actually flew someplace, or 1.3 x tach if I just stayed in the pattern. Those are pretty good approximations for our 172.
In the 18 years I've been in my club, we've had two taxi mishaps (collisions with stationary objects) and two misadventures on landing rollouts. No injuries in any of them, but it reinforced for me that there is plenty that can go wrong while taxiing. So I don't feel the least bit guilty about logging time spent taxiing (and the FAA says I can count it).
In the 18 years I've been in my club, we've had two taxi mishaps (collisions with stationary objects) and two misadventures on landing rollouts. No injuries in any of them, but it reinforced for me that there is plenty that can go wrong while taxiing. So I don't feel the least bit guilty about logging time spent taxiing (and the FAA says I can count it).
AKBill
En-Route
I use Tach or watch. Hobbs has not worked for some time....
Note to self: remove hobbs next time you are under instrument panel and install a timer..
Note to self: remove hobbs next time you are under instrument panel and install a timer..Lindberg
Final Approach
I don't understand this position if we're taking about logging for ratings and currency (what you're required to log). The FAA set the definition of flight time and set the requirements for flight time based on that definition. So if you log less than allowed, you're only cheating yourself. If you think the FAA minimum times are insufficient, you can always just fly more.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Yeah, I disagree with their definition just like I disagree with their definition of compensation. Flying is flying. Taxiing is taxiing. and goodwill is not compensation.