Well, I certainly found the most expensive way to get to Florida.

eman1200 said:
if you had to rate how you handled the emergency situation, what multigrade would you give yourself?
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I’m less into grading and more into, “what did you learn from your handling of the situation.”

But both answers will likely change over time. :)
 
Well done getting it down safely! Did you have to slip it to see out the window?
 
Jim K said:
Thank God I was about 8 miles from an airport. I couldn't see it, but luckily Teresa was able to see it out her side window and get me lined up with the RW until we were low enough I could see the edge through my little corner. I tried to load an approach, but couldn't get it to activate that close in.
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Real good CRM. I'm very glad you were able to get it down and make a good landing out of it. I would have said "great", but it looks like the plane will need some work before it flies again. :)

mandm said:
So faster version of an Arrow with extra storage?
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Almost anything would be faster than an Arrow. Heck, when the club had one our 182 was faster. :)
 
More expensive for you. But better than being more expensive for your insurance company because you wadded it up in a field.

Good job!
 
cmsuav8r said:
Well done getting it down safely! Did you have to slip it to see out the window?
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It never even occurred to me. The airport was outside my glide ring when it happened, so my mind was on reducing drag. I didn't consider that the ring is based on a dead engine whereas mine was still making power. I should've pulled power to idle when it got into the ring. Of course then I arrived at the runway way too high and fast. So high in fact I wound up making a 360 on short final, side slipped after crossing the threshold, and still touched down over halfway down the runway. The bottom left corner was still clean, and I found it to be pretty easy to track the runway and gauge height with just that. A slip would've been a good tool a mile or two out to help get lined up if I'd thought of it.
 
I’ll wager you have never used Corrosion X before and your plane knew it. It was like, “We are heading to Florida. Hold my beer.”

That or it wants to be a Cirrus SR22 when it grows up.
 
Echo what others have said, glad you got it down safely, and super awesome you did as CRM. Also, good on your instructors for their teachings and you being a good student.

And now, the plane is in the shop - might as well tack on some upgrades! Maybe new visors? Auto-pilot? New seating upholstery? :D
 
masloki said:
And now, the plane is in the shop - might as well tack on some upgrades! Maybe new visors? Auto-pilot? New seating upholstery?
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Funny you should say that...

I got a call from knots2u this morning that my wingtips were ready to be picked up. Guess I'm driving to Wisconsin now after I drive home from Florida. :(
 
That sucks! You certainly have had more than your fair share of mechanical issues...
 
Wow just catching up on this one. Glad to see that you and your family are ok!!

Rgbeard said:
it’s a Piper Arrow XL Edition. (lance)
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Ahhh.. c'mon.... getting jelly...

mandm said:
Looks cool. So faster version of an Arrow with extra storage?
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Jeeeeez.... ya'll killing me.... so jealous....

Rgbeard said:
and extra seats
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Oh man pls stop... just stop... so so jealous

Jim K said:
And substantially wider.
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Oh that does it! You Lance guys and your big, beautiful Arrowes Grandes....

:rofl:

Again, so glad you and family are ok!
 
Wow. Glad you’re all well. You’ve turned 2 emergencies into good outcomes. Congrats on that. Even if it ends up being a quick fix, would you not fly it home? Hour or 2 around the airport, cut filter, call it good, fly home. Or maybe without the family.
 
Ok, so next step, check the logbooks, and make certain that none of the parts on your aircraft are from Lady Be Good. Because we don't want this sort of thing to happen a third time.
 
X3 Skier said:
Reminds me of the time some Line Bozo left the oil cap off and the Other Bozo flying the plane didn’t check it before taking off.

Cheers
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Or of the careless Co-Qwner who did likewise, wiped up the mess - and didn't tell anybody. So the next to fly it (me) was greeted by streaks of oil running up the windshield. Nowhere near as bad as the OP -
but unsettling nonetheless. So I landed ASAP, had a mechanic wash out the engine compartment with solvent, then check for leaks while running the engine (none found). Ruined my day for sure.

Dave
 
@Jim K maybe a weird question, but what did you verbally say when it happened? How did you react outwardly with your wife and son aboard?

Were they on board with the bag mag too?

Glad everyone is safe. Not sure if remain cool (or remember not to say “Oh $h!t!” Or something egqually not reassuring to passengers).
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Jim K maybe a weird question, but what did you verbally say when it happened? How did you react outwardly with your wife and son aboard?

Were they on board with the bag mag too?

Glad everyone is safe. Not sure if remain cool (or remember not to say “Oh $h!t!” Or something egqually not reassuring to passengers).
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His first AOG. Hence the plastic hat reference.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/my-first-aog.133568/

If this ever happens to me I'll be happy if the seats don't look like the windshield.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Wow. Glad you’re all well. You’ve turned 2 emergencies into good outcomes. Congrats on that. Even if it ends up being a quick fix, would you not fly it home? Hour or 2 around the airport, cut filter, call it good, fly home. Or maybe without the family.
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I've been struggling with that. I don't think I'm comfortable loading the family up for a few hours. I don't know. After talking to a mechanic friend, I'm going to be surprised if they don't find a cracked case so it will be a moot point.

MBDiagMan said:
Good job getting it on the ground! How much oil was left in it?
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Still don't know. I got the call from the FSDO today. He was on site and it didn't sound like they had done anything since I left.

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Jim K maybe a weird question, but what did you verbally say when it happened? How did you react outwardly with your wife and son aboard?

Were they on board with the bag mag too?

Glad everyone is safe. Not sure if remain cool (or remember not to say “Oh $h!t!” Or something egqually not reassuring to passengers).
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Out of the 5, 4 were asleep and didn't even wake up. In hindsight I probably should've woken them up and prepared them to egress, but I was so preoccupied with flying the plane everything else disappeared. We were about 10 miles away at 5000' and I had real concerns that we could make it.

The one that was awake with her headset on (the 9yo) said "I think I learned some new words from daddy". We talked to her obviously, and explained the level of seriousness of the situation. She didn't understand what was happening but just assumed I was handling it. It was a blessing the rest of them were asleep as they would've been a distraction.

Teresa was pretty cool and helpful, but she told me later she was terrified. She had nightmares about it all night last night. The kids haven't given it a second thought.

We had a discussion this morning about the value of that moving map. I keep the vfr sectional up even when I'm in imc. I knew at a glance where the closest option was and which way to turn (even north up). A minute or two probably didn't make a difference in my case, but I was expecting the engine to seize any moment and having a plan took a lot of the fear out of it, especially once that glide ring reached the airport.
 
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Glad it had the only outcome that really matters, safe on the ground!

I’m curious how come the FSDO got involved?
 
Nice job PIC. Glad your family is safe

Maybe your insurance company will ask for a teardown and inspection. It would be in their best interest to make sure you will not have future problems.
 
Spoke to Air Power this morning. IO-540 lead time is 24-26 weeks.
JustinD said:
Glad it had the only outcome that really matters, safe on the ground!

I’m curious how come the FSDO got involved?
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They investigate any emergency. They are looking for anything the pilot may have done wrong, maintenance deficiencies, and keep track of trends of failures, which is where AD's come from. This Atlanta guy seems much more sympathetic than the st Louis crew from my last one. He hasn't asked yet, but I'm assuming he'll want a narrative, record of required aircraft inspections, and my certificate, medical, etc. It's kind of the equivalent of a traffic stop.

AKBill said:
Maybe your insurance company will ask for a teardown and inspection. It would be in their best interest to make sure you will not have future problems.
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Don't expect insurance to be involved at all. I believe this falls under the somewhat perverse incentive of insurance only helping buy an engine if you bend the airplane. The better job you do putting it down, the more it costs you monetarily.
 
Jim K said:
They investigate any emergency. They are looking for anything the pilot may have done wrong, maintenance deficiencies, and keep track of trends of failures, which is where AD's come from. This Atlanta guy seems much more sympathetic than the st Louis crew from my last one. He hasn't asked yet, but I'm assuming he'll want a narrative, record of required aircraft inspections, and my certificate, medical, etc. It's kind of the equivalent of a traffic stop.
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A wile back I got a call from FSDO. I had aborted a TO because airspeed did not come alive when it should have. Ended up being a frozen pito tube. It was a friendly conversation, tower must have reported the aborted TO
 
RyanB said:
Is the engine toast?
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Not 100% sure yet; mechanics not answering the phone (imagine that). Talking to another mechanic friend, based on the rate of oil loss, I'm kind of expecting to find a crack once the prop comes off.
 
Jim K said:
They investigate any emergency. They are looking for anything the pilot may have done wrong, maintenance deficiencies, and keep track of trends of failures, which is where AD's come from. This Atlanta guy seems much more sympathetic than the st Louis crew from my last one. He hasn't asked yet, but I'm assuming he'll want a narrative, record of required aircraft inspections, and my certificate, medical, etc. It's kind of the equivalent of a traffic stop.
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Interesting. I've had several emergencies in my airline career and when I was instructing at a part 141 school, never heard anything from the FSDO any of the times. I guess the companies took care of that in those instances then.
 
You won’t involve insurance if there’s a crack?
 
Salty said:
You won’t involve insurance if there’s a crack?
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Does insurance cover engine failure? I was under the impression it doesn't
 
Jim K said:
Does insurance cover engine failure? I was under the impression it doesn't
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you might not want to involve them, because they aren't likely to cover everything anyway, but any damage resulting directly from the failure should be covered. IE: you're not going to get a free overhaul out of it, but they might buy a new (or pay for overhauling the) crank case.
 
Have they determined how much oil is still in the case? Looks like you only need a few quarts. Curious - why do you expect a cracked case?

Again, well done on getting the plane down.

What system did you use for the glide ring? ForeFlight? IFly?
 
Im insured through avemco. I called them and eventually got an adjuster who said there’s no claim. I asked specifically "what if it was the governor that took out the rest of the engine?", and he said that would be considered wear &tear. This contradicts @Fearless Tower 's experience with them. He said I could file a claim if I thought it should be covered, but I decided to wait and see what the mechanics say.

WDD said:
Curious - why do you expect a cracked case?
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The amount of oil lost in a short time. It had to be pumping out under pressure, but the shaft behind that plug is splash lubricated. I'm thinking there's more damage that we didn't see. My guess is that the governor failed, jamming its driveshaft, cracking the case, and opening the oil galleys that supply the CS prop. But that's just that....a guess.

WDD said:
What system did you use for the glide ring?
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Garmin Pilot
 
just a word of warning too, think twice before you make the claim, I'm having a whole lot of fun with insurance now that I have a claim on my record. If it's not a crapload of money, you may just want to deal with it yourself.
 
Jim K said:
Im insured through avemco. I called them and eventually got an adjuster who said there’s no claim. I asked specifically "what if it was the governor that took out the rest of the engine?", and he said that would be considered wear &tear. This contradicts @Fearless Tower 's experience with them. He said I could file a claim if I thought it should be covered, but I decided to wait and see what the mechanics say.


The amount of oil lost in a short time. It had to be pumping out under pressure, but the shaft behind that plug is splash lubricated. I'm thinking there's more damage that we didn't see. My guess is that the governor failed, jamming its driveshaft, cracking the case, and opening the oil galleys that supply the CS prop. But that's just that....a guess.
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My experience with insurance has been that damage incurred by an engine failure would be covered but an engine failure itself wouldn’t be. In other words, if the engine failed and you ended up in a corn field with airframe damage, that would warrant a claim. Since you made it to a runway and there was no damage, the engine repair is on you.

Regarding the engine problem itself, did the prop remain controllable? If so, I wouldn’t expect a governor or governor drive failure. There is going to be plenty of oil in that area of the case since there is going to be some oil draining back to the sump from the governor. But that said, I wouldn’t expect a ton of oil to come out of that hole with the shaft retaining cap removed if the shaft didn’t fall out. The shaft and case are fairly close tolerance so I would think that the oil would mostly stay in the engine if the shaft remained in place.

A guy on my home field had some sort of governor drive failure in his 540 on his Cherokee six. As far as I know, the retainer didn’t fall out and the engine didn’t purge its oil. The prop went to low pitch and the engine oversped which leads me to think the drive gear failed. I never heard the final details of that story because I didn’t overhaul that engine but I’ve overhauled a number of other 540s so I’m somewhat familiar with them.
 
Jim K said:
They investigate any emergency. They are looking for anything the pilot may have done wrong, maintenance deficiencies, and keep track of trends of failures, which is where AD's come from. This Atlanta guy seems much more sympathetic than the st Louis crew from my last one. He hasn't asked yet, but I'm assuming he'll want a narrative, record of required aircraft inspections, and my certificate, medical, etc. It's kind of the equivalent of a traffic stop.
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It's been about 8 years since the last time I declared an emergency (for a similar issue due to low oil pressure in a 310 that was on a ferry flight, no less). The other emergency I declared was also in a 310 for an engine-related issue, although that was it bucking after a mag failure. Anyway, I never got contacted by the FSDO. It surprises me that they would call you and ask for things like that, that's the sort of thing that causes pilots to be afraid to declare emergencies.
 
mondtster said:
Regarding the engine problem itself, did the prop remain controllable? If so, I wouldn’t expect a governor or governor drive failure. There is going to be plenty of oil in that area of the case since there is going to be some oil draining back to the sump from the governor. But that said, I wouldn’t expect a ton of oil to come out of that hole with the shaft retaining cap removed if the shaft didn’t fall out. The shaft and case are fairly close tolerance so I would think that the oil would mostly stay in the engine if the shaft remained in place.
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Honestly, I don't know. I know I reduced power, but I don't think i touched the blue knob, nor did I take notice of the rpm. I wish I had gone to Walmart and gotten a usb stick to dump the engine monitor. I suggested they do it, but they didn't seem all that interested. I'd really like to know how low the oil pressure got, what the rpm did, and how long it was from onset to shutdown. I'll press them on it if I ever actually get ahold of them again.

I agree...I can't fathom multiple quarts of oil escaping from that hole in a matter of 10 minutes at most. That's why I'm expecting to find something else.
 
Ted said:
It's been about 8 years since the last time I declared an emergency (for a similar issue due to low oil pressure in a 310 that was on a ferry flight, no less). The other emergency I declared was also in a 310 for an engine-related issue, although that was it bucking after a mag failure. Anyway, I never got contacted by the FSDO. It surprises me that they would call you and ask for things like that, that's the sort of thing that causes pilots to be afraid to declare emergencies.
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Beats me. Stl fsdo told me they investigate every emergency like that. Atl fsdo said they always call, but hasn't asked for anything else yet. I'll update if they do. Might have to do with the level of disruption. At SUS I know they had to move a couple jets out of my way.
 
Ted said:
It's been about 8 years since the last time I declared an emergency (for a similar issue due to low oil pressure in a 310 that was on a ferry flight, no less). The other emergency I declared was also in a 310 for an engine-related issue, although that was it bucking after a mag failure. Anyway, I never got contacted by the FSDO. It surprises me that they would call you and ask for things like that, that's the sort of thing that causes pilots to be afraid to declare emergencies.
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It seems like many events that wouldn't have generated a phone call a few years ago will require one now. Even something as simple as a flat tire might do it. I'm not sure what the FAA is really after but they seem to want to generate a bunch of data about seemingly uneventful things.
 
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