Well here goes nothing...career change about to begin

[hindsight2020]

I lived in a cube farm for a few years before I went off to do this pilot stuff, and you're right - I doubt I'd go back unless *all* of my flying options were exhausted. And why is that? It's because I enjoy the work - really enjoy it. Is it routine? Absolutely. But just like you've called me out for having my opinion skewed by being a DINK (rightly so), the same goes for you when you tell people the job is boring, or isn't creative or inspiring - you're coming at it from the POV of a guy that flies f***ing fighters for a living.

Airline flying won't replace the enjoyment of buzzing around in a GA airplane, and it won't scratch the intellectual itch of someone that was originally of the mind to go into engineering or some other STEM career - but it doesn't have to. What it does is give me the time off and cash flow to satisfy those desires independently. And even when I'm strapped into my work airplane, I'm still having a good time.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be purposely deprecating of your job at all; my apologies if I did nonetheless. I made that comment in the specific context of a cube dwelling airline aspirant and the scenario I posed with that comment, where the industry would take a downturn. My point there was that since many argue the dissatisfaction of their work ad nauseam, but tend to minimize their monetary motivations (Americans tend to feign bashfulness about money...) I was trying to bring to light the idea that to an outsider, everything looks novel. Once on the inside and cured from that dopamine high, you better have stronger motivations than "money and time off", because those come and go in the industry. I meant it as a cautionary tale for the optimism biased in the crowd.

Also remember, I have 1,100 hours of flying a /heavy suffix airplane, oceanic time as well. So I'm not ignorant to the trappings of heavy flying routine. And it's not an exaggeration that it almost cured me from professional flying; I almost separated the military over it, only to find salvation in the training command LOL. But your overarching point is noted. My perspective is biased by my own preferences. Again apologies for over-generalizing.

Talking about pax 121. I don't think it's all drudgery. Flying outfits back home like Cape Air, shuffling drunken tourists back and forth from SJU to the Lesser Antilles would be a hell of a retirement gig for me, especially if I could do it only seasonally and still get to live CONUS part year, for the sake of the wife's career. Alas, it doesn't pay ssssssshhh--. I would also be contributing to the industry problem, by accepting jobs that undercut the livelihood of those behind me in the career ladder who would go without decent retirement, healthcare coverage or bona fide savings-capable wages of consequence. Which is why my own part 91 flying becomes ever more important in my life as I reach a point where flying for money will no longer be financially viable for me. But I digress.

As someone who’s about 30 months out from my first retirement and looking for my second career, my wife and I are having the hardest time seeing past the pretty significant amount of time away from home. I saw an AA FO’s schedule the other day (been there about 18 months) and it’s basically 3-4 days on 3-4 days off (mostly working weekends). I think I read about an average of 16-18 working days per month (effectively away from home the entire time). Sure that’s more time off than many full time jobs, when you’re off, but that’s also a lot of time away from home when you’re on the schedule. For him, if he has kids, forget about spending any time with them unless he home schools them. And if he has to commute too, fuggghedaboutit! I know the pay is great, especially at the majors, but we’re spending a lot of time exploring options that would allow me to continue to fly as a second career, without being gone so much. Not saying I won’t attempt transition to the airlines, just not sold that that’s what’s best for my family yet. Good luck to you though!

Interesting, that's not the math my family came to when we asked the same question. When we sat down and did that math (before my wife got sick that is, and all this became academic anyways), the airlines came way ahead on that front, as @Hacker has alluded to in his reply to you.

Specifically, I told my wife: "you have two options, both mean I'm out of this bed 180 nights in the preceding 12 months. You can either serve this 3-on 4-off, or 219-on [joke about mil deployments overrunning without credit]". I let her answer first, then I told her my vote. She picked the same as I did, which I guess is why we're still married (life can feel a bit russian roulette at times LOL). At any rate, the answer was curtain #1.

Of course, the caveats apply of relocating within driving distance to a domicile. We would much prefer for me to have the ability to bounce back to the house on the fourth day, than be gone an entire half year, especially with the kid's age. Extended absences like that are life altering events for us, and I still would have 10 years of that in the CAF. The airlines would require stints that represent nothing more than a XC weekend for me, and we could swing that. Deployments have always been ball crushers for my family life, which is why I was going to separate (before a career AETC appointment salvaged my military tenure). I'm not even going to address @Hackers additional comments about life in garrison; he did a complete enough job of what is describing the water for us mil types already.

The other thing, and again Lord knows I'm not the airline cheerledader of choice on here LOL, is that the airline lifestyle can be molded to fit a variance of family circumstances. The military basically offered me the line the current SECDEF is proffering: "if you can't deploy at will, I want you out of my military". Great job Maddog, good luck with retention by treating everybody like a childless Marine 18 yo enlisted recruit. That'll do great things for your middle management and tactical expert technicians. With the airlines, if it came down to getting kicked out of the military, we could in theory move close enough to a domicile where I could drive to it, and we could still see each other and be part of my son's upbringing until the schedule would allow weekends in my "BES" [base equipment seat, aka relative seniority]. And again, this is coming from someone with zero intentions of going airlines until I have a shot at an AD retirement check in 9 years.

I have heard other mil folk just like you, suggest deployments and 3/4 year long absences from their family be more favorable than the shuttle schedule of the airlines. It simply rings completely foreign to my family. I attribute much of that to the degree to which certain spouses prefer that level of absence from their mate, the age of the children, and also the degree to which they have other family support structures that effectively ameliorate the absence of the money maker in the physical home. A family with a lot of grandparents and uncles around is much better poised to deploy without losing sleep over it than my family of 3 with dead grandparents, the other 2 OCONUS without electricity, with a cohort of aunts one state away I wouldn't trust my son's care for one second, let alone 6 months in the event my wife falling ill. No one size fits all.

To be fair, my training command job is nothing like the combat military. It fits my specific life circumstances while allowing me the opportunity to continue to provide my talents in the service of our National Defense policy. I know my lane and role in this wheel, and I'm grateful for the opportunity. But it does not escape me that if this niche had not been made available to me, I would have had to leave the service, period dot. And I hate admitting it, but even the airlines and their proverbial 180 nights away would have been a more workable arrangement than the Active Duty (and even the Reserves, the way they're behaving these days) in present policy.

It takes all kinds, I guess is the BL on this one.

 

[Hacker]

Airline flying won't replace the enjoyment of buzzing around in a GA airplane, and it won't scratch the intellectual itch of someone that was originally of the mind to go into engineering or some other STEM career - but it doesn't have to. What it does is give me the time off and cash flow to satisfy those desires independently. And even when I'm strapped into my work airplane, I'm still having a good time.

This encapsulates my view on the airline career perfectly, even as one of those pesky former fighter pilots.

I had a full career of doing things that were professionally satisfying. I'm glad to have done that, and proud of the team I was part of and what we accomplished for a greater good.

But now I get to put that intellectual interest toward other things I want to put it toward (I am on the Board of Directors for a nonprofit that I find immensely meaningful and satisfying), and I get to scratch the aviation itch by flying other airplanes that I've wanted to my entire life (reference my other thread about the PT-19 flying club, and chasing all the other warbird and GA flying I missed out on due to the trappings of a military career).

For me, an airline is the perfect home for the "back 9" of my professional aviation career.

 

[kayoh190]

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be purposely deprecating of your job at all; my apologies if I did nonetheless.

Nah man - there's never any need to apologize with me. Everything you've ever said about this stuff has been more intelligently stated than I'm capable of, and you come from a background where you know the deal as well as anyone. We might come to different conclusions, but when you lay down the nitty gritty about this job I haven't ever been able to think that you're wrong. It's important for people coming up through the ranks to hear it from all sides.

 

[Velocity173]

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be purposely deprecating of your job at all; my apologies if I did nonetheless. I made that comment in the specific context of a cube dwelling airline aspirant and the scenario I posed with that comment, where the industry would take a downturn. My point there was that since many argue the dissatisfaction of their work ad nauseam, but tend to minimize their monetary motivations (Americans tend to feign bashfulness about money...) I was trying to bring to light the idea that to an outsider, everything looks novel. Once on the inside and cured from that dopamine high, you better have stronger motivations than "money and time off", because those come and go in the industry. I meant it as a cautionary tale for the optimism biased in the crowd.

Also remember, I have 1,100 hours of flying a /heavy suffix airplane, oceanic time as well. So I'm not ignorant to the trappings of heavy flying routine. And it's not an exaggeration that it almost cured me from professional flying; I almost separated the military over it, only to find salvation in the training command LOL. But your overarching point is noted. My perspective is biased by my own preferences. Again apologies for over-generalizing.

Talking about pax 121. I don't think it's all drudgery. Flying outfits back home like Cape Air, shuffling drunken tourists back and forth from SJU to the Lesser Antilles would be a hell of a retirement gig for me, especially if I could do it only seasonally and still get to live CONUS part year, for the sake of the wife's career. Alas, it doesn't pay ssssssshhh--. I would also be contributing to the industry problem, by accepting jobs that undercut the livelihood of those behind me in the career ladder who would go without decent retirement, healthcare coverage or bona fide savings-capable wages of consequence. Which is why my own part 91 flying becomes ever more important in my life as I reach a point where flying for money will no longer be financially viable for me. But I digress.



Interesting, that's not the math my family came to when we asked the same question. When we sat down and did that math (before my wife got sick that is, and all this became academic anyways), the airlines came way ahead on that front, as @Hacker has alluded to in his reply to you.

Specifically, I told my wife: "you have two options, both mean I'm out of this bed 180 nights in the preceding 12 months. You can either serve this 3-on 4-off, or 219-on [joke about mil deployments overrunning without credit]". I let her answer first, then I told her my vote. She picked the same as I did, which I guess is why we're still married (life can feel a bit russian roulette at times LOL). At any rate, the answer was curtain #1.

Of course, the caveats apply of relocating within driving distance to a domicile. We would much prefer for me to have the ability to bounce back to the house on the fourth day, than be gone an entire half year, especially with the kid's age. Extended absences like that are life altering events for us, and I still would have 10 years of that in the CAF. The airlines would require stints that represent nothing more than a XC weekend for me, and we could swing that. Deployments have always been ball crushers for my family life, which is why I was going to separate (before a career AETC appointment salvaged my military tenure). I'm not even going to address @Hackers additional comments about life in garrison; he did a complete enough job of what is describing the water for us mil types already.

The other thing, and again Lord knows I'm not the airline cheerledader of choice on here LOL, is that the airline lifestyle can be molded to fit a variance of family circumstances. The military basically offered me the line the current SECDEF is proffering: "if you can't deploy at will, I want you out of my military". Great job Maddog, good luck with retention by treating everybody like a childless Marine 18 yo enlisted recruit. That'll do great things for your middle management and tactical expert technicians. With the airlines, if it came down to getting kicked out of the military, we could in theory move close enough to a domicile where I could drive to it, and we could still see each other and be part of my son's upbringing until the schedule would allow weekends in my "BES" [base equipment seat, aka relative seniority]. And again, this is coming from someone with zero intentions of going airlines until I have a shot at an AD retirement check in 9 years.

I have heard other mil folk just like you, suggest deployments and 3/4 year long absences from their family be more favorable than the shuttle schedule of the airlines. It simply rings completely foreign to my family. I attribute much of that to the degree to which certain spouses prefer that level of absence from their mate, the age of the children, and also the degree to which they have other family support structures that effectively ameliorate the absence of the money maker in the physical home. A family with a lot of grandparents and uncles around is much better poised to deploy without losing sleep over it than my family of 3 with dead grandparents, the other 2 OCONUS without electricity, with a cohort of aunts one state away I wouldn't trust my son's care for one second, let alone 6 months in the event my wife falling ill. No one size fits all.

To be fair, my training command job is nothing like the combat military. It fits my specific life circumstances while allowing me the opportunity to continue to provide my talents in the service of our National Defense policy. I know my lane and role in this wheel, and I'm grateful for the opportunity. But it does not escape me that if this niche had not been made available to me, I would have had to leave the service, period dot. And I hate admitting it, but even the airlines and their proverbial 180 nights away would have been a more workable arrangement than the Active Duty (and even the Reserves, the way they're behaving these days) in present policy.

It takes all kinds, I guess is the BL on this one.

I hear ya about heavy stuff. Went on a KC-135 ride back in 98 and one of the pilots (CPT) said he couldn’t wait to get out. Bored out of his mind. Planned on getting out and becoming a pro golfer.

Training command is awesome but let’s face it, Mattis is right. We don’t fight wars (minus B-2) by sitting around in the US. We kinda have to go where the threat is. While I hated Iraq and Afghanistan, that’s where the fight is, that’s where we were required to be. No doubt I enjoyed my 4 years of 9-5 in the training command but I also felt a bit dirty because I wasn’t doing the job the Army hired me to do. Righteous or not, the point of the military pilot is to serve in combat. Today’s military pilot is more about getting ratings to get a cush civilian job and bonuses, than serving their country. $250K in bonuses and they still won’t stay in because they can’t stand leaving family and they’re tired of doing Powerpoint over actual flying. Please, they get paid over $100K a year to fly an F-16. Cry me a river.

Perfect job for you would be like an old buddy of mine. He was a USMC F-18 Pilot, retires and goes to work for DRAKEN flying A-4s full time. That would be the perfect gig in my opinion. Forget shuttling pax from A to B in the airlines. He spends his time flying around the country waxing F-35s.

 

[hindsight2020]

Training command is awesome but let’s face it, Mattis is right. We don’t fight wars (minus B-2) by sitting around in the US. We kinda have to go where the threat is. While I hated Iraq and Afghanistan, that’s where the fight is, that’s where we were required to be. No doubt I enjoyed my 4 years of 9-5 in the training command but I also felt a bit dirty because I wasn’t doing the job the Army hired me to do. Righteous or not, the point of the military pilot is to serve in combat. Today’s military pilot is more about getting ratings to get a cush civilian job and bonuses, than serving their country. $250K in bonuses and they still won’t stay in because they can’t stand leaving family and they’re tired of doing Powerpoint vs actual flying. Please, they get paid over $100K a year to fly an F-16. Cry me a river.

Um, what?

A bold set of aspersions you cast in that post, mate. Let's see if we can debunk some of your spears:

First, I think yours is an oversimplified perspective; it also dismisses the fact that these dynamics are not new. They weren't new for the separating Vietnam pilot, and they are not new for the military pilot of today. If I may say so, the jab reeks of stereotyping from the vantage point of Army personnel, where aviation is not regarded as a central piece to the cocom.

I do not disagree at all that the mission set is forward projection of power. But we gratuitously mismanage that charter for the sake of rent seek and defense contractor profiteering. Everybody knows we absolutely squander the Nation's budget with the kind of gratuitous "box checking" REMF, nonner-ridden deployments. Cities of graft where 80% of the king's court is doing the same damn job they can do in garrison, and for which there is no need to do forward-deployed. And the punchline of course: while being fed by civilian contractors inside the wire who absolutely rape the US government in fare for services rendered. Shall I bring up all the NATO/USAFE/{insert ARMY equivalent here} OCONUS PCS basing that drain our National Budget to give people 3 year revolving paid vacations to Germany/Italy just to tour and live in places the average German or Italian can't even afford in their own Country? I could keep going about these "real deployed" heros, but you know all this already. I'm just disappointed you chose to pick on the garrison straw man as the source of all that's wrong with the military. Brother please.

Go talk to some CAF pilots other than me, and you'll find no shortage of volunteer patriots. What they are objecting to is what I'm trying to explain to you here. If you believe so strongly that training others to replace you wasn't what the "Army hired you to do" (you're wrong btw, the Army hired to do whatever the f--- the Army wanted to do that particular day, it's called an ADSC), then they too feel equally strongly that babysitting powerpoint slides in the middle east at the expense of their families, whilst also not fulfilling their job of flying an F-16 in combat, is the reason they're getting out. It's not about 250K (which btw was a figure based on a non-inflation adjusted basis over 10 years, which is a pittance) or not wanting to deploy like you insinuate.

Go ask a fighter pilot to draw it on crayons for ya (a fitting Army instructional tool btw) what a TSP is. Perhaps a bomber pilot (other than me) what CBP "deployments" are, and maybe you'll get a slightly more nuanced idea as to why these retention issues are kicking the living s---t out the DOD.

Furthermore, the issue with deployments has been completely subverted because of the way we've mismanaged our people since 9/11. That's not the way we've done things historically. Strategic Reserves gave way to this BS Expeditionary force (AEF) boondoggle since 2001. As a result, we have completely abused our Strategic Reserves in ways they were not designed for, while continuing the fraud waste and abuse of Active Duty deployment cycles in our standing army. And you want to blame the resisting pilot for reacting in rational ways to this mismanagement of his talent and life, because only those who smile at divorce-inducing family separation are worthy of a check not big enough to actually retire with at the end of 20 years? Jesus Christ man, talk about blaming the victim.

I'll give you a mulligan because I know your background and your impeccable service history precedes you, but you need to re-cage your assumptions of what's going on in the Departments of the Air Force and Navy, and what you've come to believe about those of us who do not deploy in perpetuity. I'm genuinely surprised by your prior post.

 

[Velocity173]

Whoa dude, I wasn’t trying to belittle your service as an IP. Way over analyzed what I was trying to convey.

First, I’m well aware of the differences of deploying (Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo) and TRADOC. There are dangers with both paths. My flight school class of 38, 3 are dead and 1 has a TBI; all noncombat related from the business. Just had a former student die serving with 160th in Iraq. Yes, I know being an IP is dangerous, I did it at the school house for 4 years. But, fact of the matter is, and there’s no way around this, working stateside and being home every night as an IP, was much more preferable than living in a crappy hooch in any overseas theater. It’s not exactly Vietnam over there but no one in their right mind would choose it over IP duty in the states. That is unless they’re in search of medals that are given out like candy these days but I digress.

I agree in that the military is spread thin in all branches but you’re preaching to the choir on that one brother. I’d love to see a comparison of flying hours flown per service in theater myself. Not to tout the Army’s horn, but I’m sure we we’re up there in hours flown. No major operation goes on without it and no one (dignitaries)gets around without it. Pilots and airframes have been pushed to their limits. I also agree, that the Reserves and Guard were never intended to be used in that capacity. Believe me, I worked with some PO’d Guard comrades that would rather be working on developing their business back home than dodging dust devils in Iraq. But again, no war today is like being “back in the Nam” either. For 90% of the time, it was nothing more than a cop policing a bad neighborhood...then RTB to get steak and lobster at the chow hall on Friday nights. I got paid good tax free money with combat pay so I have no regrets in that regard.

I guess the second part of your rant is the whole military industrial complex thing? Sure, I was disgusted to see 60 % civ and 40 % military in Afghanistan, but who cares? “Theirs not to reason why...” The same bureaucracy and fraud waste and abuse of the DOD exists everywhere but at a much lesser extent. Heck, in EMS we’ve got our own form of MIC. I don’t care because I don’t contribute to it, I just work within the system. Being the “tip of the spear,” so to speak, you don’t have control over where you’re pointed, you just go. As far as not having troops forward deployed, well how are you going to get realworld multinational training? Send 1,000 troops TDY to Thailand for “Cobra Gold” every year? In order to meet our national security obligations over seas, it does help to have forces already stationed there.

I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree on military pilot compensation. In 12 years in the Army, I never once complained for being underpaid, and that was on WO pay! They gave me a flying job with no experience that would require $$$ and thousands of hours to get civilian. They provided me with free college, free housing (made money), extra pay for COLA, BAS, etc. Not to mention, the job itself can never be touched by anything I could do on the civilian side. The BS additional duties and having to deploy to a combat zone, was a small price to pay. It’s kinda what’s expected when one signs up. What I see these days, is a whole new crop of kids that are living in some unrealistic dreamworld as if military flying is some kind of utopia. It’s like they want the attention that vets get because of service but yet they don’t want to do their “warrior tasks” to qualify as service. Basically they’ve got the DOD by the balls and saying “if you don’t pay me what I think I’m worth (bonuses), I’ll go to the airlines.” What makes me laugh is, they’re already making more than their peers in the regionals! In a nutshell, military service should revolve around “service” and not to build hours or get rich. And yes, I do know some fine officers and NCOs that could care less about money and were always in it to make a difference. Call it misguided patriotism in a military industrial complex world, but at least it’s an honorable aspiration.

Finally, my primary intent in the above post was to agree with you in that most professional flying does get boring. As I said, I think my Draken buddy played his cards right, going from military fighter pilot, straight to civilian fighter pilot. I don’t see it as a contractor in theater making money off of war, he’s just providing a service in the states that is fulfilled at a lessor cost than existing DOD aggressor units. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Nothing wrong with flying “the friendly skies” either, I just see the Draken thing as an avenue for those looking for something a little more exciting.

Once again man, no disrespect for what you do. Believe me, I’ve been there and I could tell you things on the Black Hawk side of maintenance that were outright criminal as well. One, just happened recently. But, I hate to sound cold, it’s what I expected when I signed the dotted line. My service was a love-hate relationship and I wouldn’t have done a second over 20 yrs but it will always go down as the most rewarding time of my life.

 

[hindsight2020]

Whoa dude, I wasn’t trying to belittle your service as an IP. Way over analyzed what I was trying to convey. [...snip...]

We're good brother, I think we're just talking past each other wrt operational risk. There is no doubt low and slow is a different paradigm than high altitude jet flying ,in an AOR where your adversary doesn't have an Air Force, and all it has is SAFIRE and RPGs. Army helo guys by and large take the brunt of that scrimmage. I've never disputed that. It is therefore absolutely the case working at the schoolhouse is a much safer construct.

I was specifically talking about my side of the house in big iron USAF. I have a statistically higher chance of morting myself doing this job with a dodo bird in the other pit, than loitering in the bozosphere above Syria in a BUFF. It is therefore why when someone tells me I shouldn't be wearing a uniform while performing this duty because "you don't deploy", SECDEF included, I have a problem with that. I've already delineated the reasons I think such an accusation is myopic or misguided in my previous post.

The other thing I was trying to convey to you is that I have it on good authority that people aren't getting out because of bonus money. The bonus is, inflation-adjusted, a joke anyways, and the people who take it were staying anyways, so that was never the incentive. I've certainly never said I'm inadequately compensated for my work. My point was that if they take it away in this environment then that's just piling on the antagonism already existent on the ground, so it's better to leave it alone. Remember, the DOD got away with a lot in the years the airlines weren't hiring, and now that people have options to exercise, it's all of a sudden soft-bellied this and lack of patriotism that. A strange cause to fight someone about on my end, considering I'm not RegAF, I just wanted to call a spade a spade wrt reasons Airmen are getting out, from the perspective of someone in the USAF currently and in the epicenter of the issue.

I was also trying to make a distinction between BS deployments and the reason people are getting out wrt deployments. There's two elements at play here: Ops tempo, and BS deployments. They're not mutually exclusive. They happen in tandem, and those are reasons people are getting out.

Regarding Draken and to bring it back to the OPs thread, since we've hijacked this thing long enough. My AA buddy was mulling it over ever since the NAVY kicked him out of the Hornet medically. There's another example of how the system wastes talent. Guy gets a waiver by the medical branch of the USN (NAMI), then the personnel side kicks him out because they don't think he's deployable, even though his physician disagrees. And the service loses a guy whose last wish was to go fly a 737. I can't fault AA for stealing the DOD's candy with their flippancy and recalcitrant attitude towards "their human property". And he'll be the first one to tell you this, he rather be back in the Hornet or Viper, he still feels he was ripped from it much too soon.

 

[Hacker]

I think my Draken buddy played his cards right, going from military fighter pilot, straight to civilian fighter pilot.

Just a tangent here about the contractors, since you both brought it up.

I know a couple of the principals at Draken, and seriously considered going there instead of to the airlines after I was out of Big Blue. Draken seemed to be a well-run, well-financed company. I liked their angle on things, and I especially liked that they didn't seem to cheap-out in maintaining their fleet. It would certainly be better flying on a day-to-day basis than at the airlines, too.

My concern was that being a contractor, especially at such a young company, was a "job" more than it was a "career". Like you guys, I have numerous friends who have left the mil for flying and working at various contractors. They all tell me that they're on this year-by-year job rollercoaster as contracts are bid and re-bid, are awarded and expire, on a regular basis. At the same time they are enjoying the job or the pay, they are constantly worried about if they'll have the same job or the same pay next year.

Some guys are able to do the same job in the same place, but with a new company and a new salary every year or couple years. Others stay with the same company but bounce from place to place and contract to contract.

Obviously the airline industry isn't exactly the paragon of job security or stability, but compared to the contractors it was an industry where I could at least see a reasonably expected path to the next 25 years of employment.

 

[Anymouse]

Just a tangent here about the contractors, since you both brought it up.

I know a couple of the principals at Draken, and seriously considered going there instead of to the airlines after I was out of Big Blue. Draken seemed to be a well-run, well-financed company. I liked their angle on things, and I especially liked that they didn't seem to cheap-out in maintaining their fleet. It would certainly be better flying on a day-to-day basis than at the airlines, too.

My concern was that being a contractor, especially at such a young company, was a "job" more than it was a "career". Like you guys, I have numerous friends who have left the mil for flying and working at various contractors. They all tell me that they're on this year-by-year job rollercoaster as contracts are bid and re-bid, are awarded and expire, on a regular basis. At the same time they are enjoying the job or the pay, they are constantly worried about if they'll have the same job or the same pay next year.

Some guys are able to do the same job in the same place, but with a new company and a new salary every year or couple years. Others stay with the same company but bounce from place to place and contract to contract.

Obviously the airline industry isn't exactly the paragon of job security or stability, but compared to the contractors it was an industry where I could at least see a reasonably expected path to the next 25 years of employment.

The joys of contracting!!

Seriously, I've gotten to the point where I just don't worry about it (the contract). There's enough knuckleheads in the world to keep the contracts coming. Like Hacker said, if my company loses this contract, I can typically hop on with the next company. There really isn't much incentive to stay with any particular contracting company in the long term since seniority is mostly non-existent. Actually, one of the best ways to get a raise is to jump ship to the next guys.

 

[Xscaliber]

Congrats, and good for you!

I'm in the initial phases of a job search myself, but I'll be moving from an IT job to another IT job. I wish I'd discovered aviation earlier in my life, as I might have gone down that route instead. But as I'm 52 and there is zero chance I could make as much in aviation as in IT at this point, and I need as much as possible to feather my nest for retirement, the numbers don't line up for me either. But I'm content to enjoy it as a personal pursuit.

Have fun, and congrats!

My buddy first learned to fly at 45, quit his well paid Mechanical Engineers job and went on to get his CFI and hour build to join a regional at the ripe old age of 50 as a FO, that was 3 yrs back and he's close to moving across to the right seat.
He may not have a long career left open to him with the airlnes, but he's loving every minute, and like he says.. It's never too late to chase your dreams.

 

[Velocity173]

Just a tangent here about the contractors, since you both brought it up.

I know a couple of the principals at Draken, and seriously considered going there instead of to the airlines after I was out of Big Blue. Draken seemed to be a well-run, well-financed company. I liked their angle on things, and I especially liked that they didn't seem to cheap-out in maintaining their fleet. It would certainly be better flying on a day-to-day basis than at the airlines, too.

My concern was that being a contractor, especially at such a young company, was a "job" more than it was a "career". Like you guys, I have numerous friends who have left the mil for flying and working at various contractors. They all tell me that they're on this year-by-year job rollercoaster as contracts are bid and re-bid, are awarded and expire, on a regular basis. At the same time they are enjoying the job or the pay, they are constantly worried about if they'll have the same job or the same pay next year.

Some guys are able to do the same job in the same place, but with a new company and a new salary every year or couple years. Others stay with the same company but bounce from place to place and contract to contract.

Obviously the airline industry isn't exactly the paragon of job security or stability, but compared to the contractors it was an industry where I could at least see a reasonably expected path to the next 25 years of employment.

Yeah contract stuff has always worried me when it comes to career longevity. Several helo friends have tried to get me on for overseas stuff but being gone 6 months or more out of the year just won’t cut it. Then I’d be wondering if I’ll be out of a job when the contract ends.

I think Draken is pretty solid financially. Contracted with the AF for aggressor role until 2023 and they just picked up a JTAC training contract with the Marines. Maintaining a 40 year old A-4 has got to be $$$ though.

 

[Hacker]

I think Draken is pretty solid financially. Contracted with the AF for aggressor role until 2023 and they just picked up a JTAC training contract with the Marines.

But again, that's the rub. I wasn't looking at 5 or 10 years down the road, much less the more common year-to-year contract actors. I wanted something I could reailstically see for 20-25 years.

Draken didn't exist 10 years ago, and there's no telling if it will exist 10 years from now.

Still think it is a good company with great people and a solid business plan...but the airlines were ultimately a better career decision for me.

 

[Anymouse]

...but the airlines were ultimately a better career decision for me.

When you get right down to it, you have to do what's right for you.

When I made the decision to fly full time for a living, I had dreams of flying shiny jets for the majors. Put in a bunch of apps as well. Then one day, about two years after I started full time flying, I realized that I would be miserable at an airline and decided to take a different path. I don't regret it.

I've worked with a bunch of people that took the job just so they could get enough time to go to the airlines. I'm starting to lose count of the number of friends that have made the leap to the 121 world.

I say good luck which ever way you go.

 

[texasclouds]

My buddy first learned to fly at 45, quit his well paid Mechanical Engineers job and went on to get his CFI and hour build to join a regional at the ripe old age of 50 as a FO, that was 3 yrs back and he's close to moving across to the right seat.
He may not have a long career left open to him with the airlnes, but he's loving every minute, and like he says.. It's never too late to chase your dreams.

Did you mean left seat?

 

[hindsight2020]

Personally I'm with @Hacker on the employment track. Post retirement I'll still have a high schooler, so I'll probably be looking at employers that offer A-funds (if govt) or B-funds (if private, since I don't trust a private entity to keep its A-fund promise in this oligarchic pro-management legal environment). Those who can get to the same place on a gig, God Bless. To each their own. I have enough personal anecdotes to be convinced the "gig economy" is a joke on the masses, which is why I don't use that term legitimately. I believe it's an astroturfing scam, just like 401k the day they began being proferred as PRIMARY retirement vehicles. Teen% B-fund or go home for me.

 

[JP11283]

Definitely update this thread as you make the transition. I'm at the crossroads now where I've grown tired of the cubicle life and the shackles of a company provided laptop and smartphone email and can't help but think of flying every time I step on a plane to travel for work. You're way ahead of me as I haven't even started taking flight lessons yet, but threads like these are inspiring.

 

[SethV]

Good for you! I am 41...would love to do the same thing, but with my age and college for 2 kids coming up in 4 years I just don't think I can afford it.

Hoping that I can retire from my current job in my 50's and get on with a 135 or a regional 121 if I have enough hours by then. Currently only have about 400 hrs and fly our SR22 for family use. Time builds slowly with this method.

 

[JC150]

Well, I am pretty much committed to going to one of the wholly owned (Piedmont, Envoy, PSA). Envoy really kind of rubbed me the wrong way at an interview for their cadet program, and I just didn't really get the warm fuzzies when I went down there. Piedmont is still an option, but I just like PSAs crew bases a lot better to be honest, and knowing 3 people there who all seem to love it kinda makes me think its the place for me. My mentor has been at PSA for about a year now, he was on reserve for 6 months but he never had any of the issues you described? I guess your milage may vary, but he held a line at about 6 months and has had nothing but great things to say about the company, and he's never steered me wrong so I put a lot of faith into what he says.

Things do change quickly in this career though so I am keeping all of my options open for sure. When I initially started training my goal was to go to Skywest and fly for them, but I think staying with wholly owned is the way to go. Not necessarily for the flow agreements, although that is a benefit for sure, but just because I feel like they will be more stable. American is really starting to cut ties with its non wholly owned flying, and it wouldn't surprise me if we don't see more airlines doing that in the future.

I enjoy working here, I just don't like when people are told lies. I won't sway you away from PSA, I just want you to understand some facts.

1) Current time to be a R1 line holder (FO/Captain)
CLT: 14 months/3 years 11 months
CVG: 8 months/3 years 6 months
DAY: 8 months/3 years 5 months
DCA: 9 months/3 years 6 months
ORF: 8 months/2 years 6 months
PHL: 10 months/2 years 6 months
TYS: 10 months/3 years 4 months

2) I understand you dont care about the captain numbers but you should and let me explain in a second. These are summer numbers. Once winter comes around, our flying is reduced significantly and we lose a lot of lines. This means less Round 1 lines which means a lot of people who are barely lineholders will go back to reserve and reserve times will increase again.

3) *FORCED UPGRADE* This is important!!! Take the time to read this:

- You will be forced to upgrade to captain once you hit 950 part 121 hours. This is ~15-18 months in.
- Lets say you get forced upgraded at 15 months. This means you will spend the first several months displaced in ORF. Your friends might say "well you should bid for captain so you don't get displaced". The issue is you cannot voluntarily upgrade until you have 1,000 hours but the company can force you at 950 hours. This is how the company ensures ORF is staffed is by displacing people.
- So let's say you get forced at 15 months and you live in CVG. Eventually you'll get back to CVG, but if you're at month 15 and Round 1 in CVG is at month 42, you have a long time on reserve.

4) Long time to hold Round 1 as a captain:

- We have a lot of senior captains who aren't flowing to AA mainline. R1 captain at PSA is amazing with SAP. These pilots consume the majority of our R1 lines.
- The reason this is an issue is you don't have a lot of lines leftover for the newer guys. These are the captains who want to leave and are trying to build turbine PIC to get on with United or Delta or wait for the flow.
- A lot of our captains on reserve who bid FIRST OUT are flying 10-20 hours a month. Hard to build turbine PIC when you can't fly. Also, you will find yourself sitting hot reserve 8 times a month for 8 hours and only credit 4 hours.

**IMPORTANT** -When I was CVG based for 9 months, I never once got a trip on reserve. Towards the end I stopped commuting in and taking my chances. I had to go pick up open-time trips to stay current. AND i was marked as "FIRST OUT". I sat hot reserve 8 times a month for 9 months.

**IMPORTANT**- A lot of our captains who are forced to upgrade get fed up and leave for Spirit, Kalitta, Sun Country, etc. Now the company has to force upgrade even more people to replace the forced upgrade people leaving. Now you create a cycle of replacing forced upgrades by force upgrading more pilots.
- PSA tried to fix a recruitment issue by creating a retention issue. Yes you're filling your captain classes but you are losing record numbers of captains on the bottom (not what you want)
- Now, FO's are getting faked married, having kids, joining the military, anything to get out of forced upgrade. I know FO's who bid reserve just to keep their hours down.

**IMPORTANT** - Its not that people dont want to upgrade, its that our reserve rules are SO bad that you want to eat into that time as much as possible. Previously you could sit as an FO for 3 years then only have 6 months on reserve. Its not that way anymore.

5) Why people don't want to be forced to upgrade:
- Your friends might say "well you'll make more money as a captain on reserve". Let me tell you. You can SAP down to 18-19 days off a month as a first officer, then go pick up critical trips or open time trips on your days off and make more money than a captain who will never break min guarantee on reserve (75 hours credit). Or you can enjoy your 19 days off, a month (I have 14 days straight this month off and 19 total days off as a captain).
- You won't exceed 75 hours of credit on reserve. So yes, an FO can make more money than a captain with the same number of days off.


6) Personal Story:
- My friend was forced to upgrade at month 15. He only held a line for 2 months.
- He lives in CLT but now he has to commute to ORF. Guess what? A lot of the trips there start with deadheads to CLT and end in deadheads back to ORF.
- So he commutes the night prior to ORF, then deadheads to CLT to begin a trip
- Once he gets finished the trip in CLT, they won't let him "SELF" himself. He has to deadhead to ORF, and get another hotel. Then he commutes back to CLT in the next morning.
- Another reason PSA stands for "Positive Space Airlines"
- Not sure why they cut so many lines out of CLT. But a lot of the ORF lines begin and end in deadheads to/from CLT. These should be CLT lines.
- He will go back to CLT eventually but he will likely flow to AA mainline before ever holding a Round 1 line at PSA.

Remember my story of never getting a trip in my 9 months at CVG. 8 times a month of sitting hot reserve and I stopped commuting in. QOL at PSA is awful on reserve. Super amazing with the SAP as a R1 lineholder.

I agree with going with going to a wholly owned. I'm not a "disgruntled" kind of pilot, and I really do enjoy working with the people here. But what I wrote was the truth. I just hate seeing people spread lies.

 

[CC268]

Note to self: don’t go to PSA lol

 

[JC150]

Note to self: don’t go to PSA lol

Honestly, as long as they keep filling classes, the company won't care to change anything.

Oh yeah, your FO retention bonus after your 1 year anniversary - its paid out over time not all at once after 1 year. So my friend who spent 15 months as an FO then got forced to upgrade? Yep, he isnt getting that FO retention bonus anymore!

 

[CC268]

Honestly, as long as they keep filling classes, the company won't care to change anything.

Oh yeah, your FO retention bonus after your 1 year anniversary - its paid out over time not all at once after 1 year. So my friend who spent 15 months as an FO then got forced to upgrade? Yep, he isnt getting that FO retention bonus anymore!

Could always go to Mesa

 

[JC150]

Could always go to Mesa

Considering their open-time is paid at 300%... we get 125%

There's things that Mesa has that kicks PSA's you know what. From my experience, our reserve rules are even worse than Mesa

 

[texasclouds]

what do y'all think of this guy's PSA regional experience?

 

[JC150]

Watched the first few minutes then I skipped around a little. Honestly everything he talked about is just normal for a regional. In my opinion, he didnt even talk about the bad stuff

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

What does it mean to hold a line? And what does reserve mean? I read all this airline lingo and have no idea what people are saying.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Reserve is like being on call. Typically they are the most junior in their particular fleet.

Holding a line means that they have a set schedule. They know when and where they are going. If they are junior line holder, the trips may not be all that great, but at least they know what they are going to be doing for that particular month.

 

[hindsight2020]

what do y'all think of this guy's PSA regional experience?

Hell yeah, I'm subbing this guy's Channel.

 

[JC150]

Reserve is like being on call. Typically they are the most junior in their particular fleet.

Holding a line means that they have a set schedule. They know when and where they are going. If they are junior line holder, the trips may not be all that great, but at least they know what they are going to be doing for that particular month.

What does it mean to hold a line? And what does reserve mean? I read all this airline lingo and have no idea what people are saying.

Thats the nice thing about SAP which PSA has. Most airlines don't have a SAP.

SAP is a 24 hours period where you can drop whatever you dont want and pickup whatever you do want. Its a first come first serve system. It allows me to work a 6 day trip, 1 day off, then a 5 day trip and get 18 straight days off. Then for the next month, i can do the same thing but group the work towards the end of the month and get 30+ days straight off without using any vacation. Its amazing

But it is only available to R1 line holders. This is one reason people dont want to be on reserve and why people are doing everything to avoid being forced upgraded to captain until they have enough seniority that they wont have to sit reserve too long


I know a guy who was forced to upgrade against his will. He was told if he refused he would be fired.

He has 2 years 8 months of seniority. Nowhere near getting off reserve

In the past 37 days he has:
- Sat hot reserve 9 times
- Flown 0.0 hours

Since January, he has:
- Sat hot reserve 59 times
- Flown 82 hours (avg 10.25hrs/month)
- Ran out of TV shows to watch

Hard to build Turbine PIC. Almost better to build total time, enjoy Round 1, and collect your FO Retention bonus. But when you get forced to upgrade, you lose it all

 

[Greg Bockelman]

What is SAP?

And do you ever run afoul with FAR 117 doing that?

 

[Hacker]

When the CFI guy indicated that he didn't know there are footrests for the jumpseater on an MD-80, I lost interest.

 

[JC150]

What is SAP?

And do you ever run afoul with FAR 117 doing that?

Schedule Adjustment Period. So you bid for a line in seniority order. Then after the award, you have this 24 hour window where you can literally drop everything and pick things up. Its basically First Come First Serve except the reserve grid is faked into being all green.

Only thing is you have to be at a minimum of 65 credit.

As for part 117, all the time. It has to be legal when I build my schedule in the SAP, but with overblocking, scheduling has had to take flying off me. Since i'm pay protected it doesn't matter to me! As a matter of fact, I got my go-home turn taken off today for that reason and got to go home 7 hours early!

 

[Greg Bockelman]

We have something similar. It is called Seniority Trip Trading. By the sounds of it, it works a little differently but the results are about the same.

 

[Hacker]

what do y'all think of this guy's PSA regional experience?

Okay, I actually watched the whole thing.

He's basically had a view of a little slice of being a new guy at a regional airline, and he distilled the worst parts of it into 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, he didn't stick around to see that there is a good life beyond what he saw. My life, schedules, and career don't resemble his description at all.

 

[JC150]

We have something similar. It is called Seniority Trip Trading. By the sounds of it, it works a little differently but the results are about the same.

For us it goes:
Step 1) Everyone bids for Round 1. Those who get Round 1 gets awarded a line
Step 2) SAP opens and Round 1 lineholders make their schedule
Step 3) Company looks at all the leftover flying and makes buildup lines
Step 4) Round 2 opens. If you're senior enough you get a build up line
Step 5) Everybody else goes to reserve and you get to enjoy hot reserve 8 times a month

Then we have Seniority Based trip trading which opens. Then after that closes we have First Come FIrst Serve. Both depend on the reserve grid though. So if there isn't adequate staffing you're SOL

At PSA, there's almost no green days. I can tell you several of our bases have absolutely no green days on the grid whatsoever this month. DCA is one of them. Thats why SAP is nice

 

[gsengle]

I guess I also don’t see the big deal in being forced to upgrade as long as it isn’t in say the first few months of flying...


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[Hacker]

I guess I also don’t see the big deal in being forced to upgrade as long as it isn’t in say the first few months of flying...

The issue has to do with quality of life -- some guys want to enjoy the improved schedules available to higher seniority FOs. When they're forced into the bottom rung of the Captain seniority list, they miss out.

That's supposed to be part of the attraction of the airline job, that you can take your pick in terms of making money vs having time off.

 

[JC150]

I guess I also don’t see the big deal in being forced to upgrade as long as it isn’t in say the first few months of flying...


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Read above. You go from 18-20 days off a month (if you SAP down). Or if you want to work, you still SAP down, then pick up extra flying on "days off" which pays higher.

From that you get forced to upgrade which involves 11 days off a month, sitting hot reserve up to 8 times a month, and for a lot of people, averaging 10-20 flight hours a month.

Forced upgrade is a huge decrease in quality of life

 

[gsengle]

Read above. You go from 18-20 days off a month (if you SAP down). Or if you want to work, you still SAP down, then pick up extra flying on "days off" which pays higher.

From that you get forced to upgrade which involves 11 days off a month, sitting hot reserve up to 8 times a month, and for a lot of people, averaging 10-20 flight hours a month.

Forced upgrade is a huge decrease in quality of life

Temporarily


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[JC150]

Temporarily


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Come sit reserve at PSA. You'll see why all the forced upgrade guys are bailing for places like Kalitta, Sun Country, etc. There's no movement. Some guys will flow to American Mainline before ever holding a line again.

 

[texasclouds]

Is regional reserve guaranteed at least 75 hours per month pay regardless if you actually pilot that many hours? Or is that sonething i read about the big boys?