Weighing Airline Passengers?

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Palmpilot

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US airlines may start weighing passengers
Passengers could be asked to step on the scales at the boarding gate, as federal aviation authority gets ahead of obesity figures

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-airlines-weigh-passengers-plane-b1849351.html

This may turn out to be much ado about nothing:

In a statement to The Independent , the FAA said it “issued an Advisory Circular in May 2019 that stressed the importance that airline weight and balance programs accurately reflect current passenger weights.”

“Operators are evaluating their programs to comply with this guidance. While weighing customers at the gate is an option, most operators will likely rely on updated methods for estimating passenger weights.”​

The advisory circular:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_120-27F.pdf
 
Not sure why the just don't install a scale that's at the jetway you don't even know you are stepping on that kicks the weight into a database and then gets handed to the pilot. 18B weight 176 lbs. 32C was 224, 1A was 112, etc....then there's no guessing for numbers.
 
EdFred said:
Not sure why the just don't install a scale that's at the jetway you don't even know you are stepping on that kicks the weight into a database and then gets handed to the pilot. 18B weight 176 lbs. 32C was 224, 1A was 112, etc....then there's no guessing for numbers.
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If you want total weight of passenger plus carry-on, that will work. If you just want the passenger weight, the TSA location is a better location since the pax are separated from their stuff until after screening. As TSA scans the boarding pass, the database idea still works.
 
chartbundle said:
I think the more important change would be the width of the boarding gate should be reduced to the size of a seat, if you don't fit then you need to buy another seat.
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Agree! Make the jet bridge into a fat man squeeze! :D
 
EdFred said:
Not sure why the just don't install a scale that's at the jetway you don't even know you are stepping on that kicks the weight into a database and then gets handed to the pilot. 18B weight 176 lbs. 32C was 224, 1A was 112, etc....then there's no guessing for numbers.
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Airline pilots don’t work that hard! That would go to load control who then sends the completed weight and balance via acars to the flight deck. The flight attendant counts the passengers and gives the number to the F/O who confirms it’s a match. The captain meanwhile is flirting with the flight attendant. That’s how it works.
 
Johnvan said:
Airline pilots don’t work that hard! That would go to load control who then sends the completed weight and balance via acars to the flight deck. The flight attendant counts the passengers and gives the number to the F/O who confirms it’s a match. The captain meanwhile is flirting with the flight attendant. That’s how it works.
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OK fine the data goes to load control.
 
EdFred said:
Not sure why the just don't install a scale that's at the jetway you don't even know you are stepping on that kicks the weight into a database and then gets handed to the pilot. 18B weight 176 lbs. 32C was 224, 1A was 112, etc....then there's no guessing for numbers.
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Because they know the FAA number of 170 is pure fiction with fat Americans and they’d be deplaning people. LOL
 
By the way the “hidden scale” thing is used at more than one helicopter tourist ride place I’ve been to. Heh.

Could feel the floor moving when they had you step up to the ticket counter.
 
Johnvan said:
Airline pilots don’t work that hard! That would go to load control who then sends the completed weight and balance via acars to the flight deck. The flight attendant counts the passengers and gives the number to the F/O who confirms it’s a match. The captain meanwhile is flirting with the flight attendant. That’s how it works.
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oooh, wups... I always made the capt do that and I flirted with the FA. Hmmm...

this is actually legit, although it won’t likely work. As is, double seat assignments are still common, this is WAY more complicated.

some time ago now a glass bottom boat in eh adirondaks overturned with a bunch of elderly mobility impaired folks aboard with significant loss of life. Attributed to outdated standard weights associated with uscg boat capacity ratings. The airlines use standard weights... for passengers and bags.

you can tell when the weight and balance is out of whack by the power setting on final. If you need 1.10 epr on final in a 757, it’s WAY heavier than advertised. 1.07 is normal. Every plane has its metric. And it’s not uncommon.
 
Tools said:
...

you can tell when the weight and balance is out of whack by the power setting on final. ...
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a little late in the game, eh?
 
How could we possibly know in the cockpit? That’s the point. The only recourse we have is to notice that, and call for a load audit AFTER the fact. Which, by the way, puts you on “the list”.

Also by the way, airlines do use actual weights for charter flights involving, for example, football teams.
 
denverpilot said:
Because they know the FAA number of 170 is pure fiction with fat Americans and they’d be deplaning people. LOL
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We haven't used 170/175 (summer/winter) for years. The current average weights are 190/195.

What the story is misreporting is just a survey to see how accurate the current average weights are. There are no plans to routinely weigh all passengers for weight and balance purposes. Even when passengers are weighed for this survey, the flights they depart on will depart using the current average weights.

If the survey finds that the current average weights are not representative then new average weights will be established.
 
Years ago I was flying somewhere with my mother-in-law. She was not a small woman, but not huge either--I would guess about 180-200 lbs.

We were getting on an Embraer 120 (30ish passenger turboprop), which she considered to be a "small airplane." It was clearly going to be very lightly loaded, no more than 6-8 passengers. At the door of the airplane, hey were asking passenger weights, I'm sure more for balance than total weight.

Without hesitation, she reported her weight as 400 pounds.

As we sat down, I said, "Phyllis! There is no way you weight 400 pounds! Why did you say that?"

Her reply: "I'm not going to let them cut things too close for this little plane. I just gave them some margin for error."
 
EdFred said:
Not sure why the just don't install a scale that's at the jetway you don't even know you are stepping on that kicks the weight into a database and then gets handed to the pilot. 18B weight 176 lbs. 32C was 224, 1A was 112, etc....then there's no guessing for numbers.
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2A was 300+
 
Larry in TN said:
We haven't used 170/175 (summer/winter) for years. The current average weights are 190/195.

What the story is misreporting is just a survey to see how accurate the current average weights are. There are no plans to routinely weigh all passengers for weight and balance purposes. Even when passengers are weighed for this survey, the flights they depart on will depart using the current average weights.

If the survey finds that the current average weights are not representative then new average weights will be established.
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Ha I hadn’t kept up on the weight inflation. Makes sense though. Then add their carry on that weighs more than they do... haha.
 
Interesting, pretty sure that tri-motor will carry any 12 that will fit!
 
Palmpilot said:
stressed the importance that airline weight and balance programs accurately reflect current passenger weights
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I always wondered how airlines get away by "best guessing" weight and balance. They'll list WB as a factor if a 172 crash is a few pounds overweight (that is a link to the accident) but don't give a rats A$$ that the average person on that Southwest transon flight is 275 lbs after sucking down 4 cheeseburgers and 64 ounces of soda in the food court.

EdFred said:
Not sure why the just don't install a scale that's at the jetway you don't even know you are stepping on that kicks the weight into a database and then gets handed to the pilot
Click to expand...
have had the same thought. don't tell the pax, just weigh 'em and get it over with. Or tell them, who cares if their feelings are hurt. I'm 180 lbs, why should my plane ticket subsidize the gas cost of someone twice as heavy as me?
 
I’ve always thought airlines should simply charge by weight, you and bags, with certain metrics adding surcharges... just EXACTLY like you ship freight.

Airlines simply advertise and compete on that rate.
 
Tools said:
I’ve always thought airlines should simply charge by weight, you and bags, with certain metrics adding surcharges... just EXACTLY like you ship freight.

Airlines simply advertise and compete on that rate.
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I'm pretty sure someone smarter will chime in, but I tried to do the math once and the far bigger portion of the cost ends up being the volume/seats compared to the weight. Just like how UPS and FedEx will charge you extra for light packages that take up too much space. After all the wasted space in a passenger cabin we're really not all that dense. This is why they're doing everything they can to cram more people in the same space.
 
RyanB said:
Agree! Make the jet bridge into a fat man squeeze! :D
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Install one of those pneumatic cattle squeezers in there. Also a good way to control the flow of pax into the plane. Squeeze/weigh and on you go.
 
DaleB said:
I'm amazed that the aircraft don't already have load cells on the landing gear that will TELL you the W&B.
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the A330 comes close, it pumps gas into and out of the vert stab to control and maintain optimum balance for efficient flight. You basically have no control over it at all.

that’s really a good idea, it would be far less complicated than LOTS already on the plane, and far more important.

of course the jet knows the AOA but the pilot doesn’t. That’s the case with ALL jetliners with flight data recording... unreal.
 
Tools said:
of course the jet knows the AOA but the pilot doesn’t. That’s the case with ALL jetliners with flight data recording... unreal.
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I have an AOA gauge in the HUD in the triple. 757 had one also.

Edit: Found a picture.
2FDCB3B8-D037-4843-84BA-46D978BFB9D5.jpeg
 
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Brad Z said:
Why would an advisory circular written two years ago about something that hasn't changed be considered "news"?
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LOL.

(Insert joke about it usually taking about that long to find an AC on the website, here.)
 
I'm sure the airlines know what the average passenger weight is (and that it's not really 170#). With enough people, using that number will be pretty close. Just like life insurance companies can't predict when you'll die, but they can predict very accurately what percentage of 1000 people will die in a given year.

A smaller plane, or a charter full of sumo wrestlers, that's a different matter.
 
Tools said:
the A330 comes close, it pumps gas into and out of the vert stab to control and maintain optimum balance for efficient flight. You basically have no control over it at all.

that’s really a good idea, it would be far less complicated than LOTS already on the plane, and far more important.

of course the jet knows the AOA but the pilot doesn’t. That’s the case with ALL jetliners with flight data recording... unreal.
Click to expand...


As I read this I thought "gas, what kind of gas would that be. I guess hydrogen might work." The I realized you meant fuel. Perhaps I should finish my first cup of coffee before reading POA.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I have an AOA gauge in the HUD in the triple. 757 had one also.

Edit: Found a picture.
View attachment 96471
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Really cool!

How actively do you watch the AoA?

I always thought AoA was mostly for people living on the edge, bush pilots, etc. The Perspective Cirri have them but I never found myself doing too much with the gauge other than looking at it and saying "neat!" .. mind you all of my Cirrus ops are very standard "by the book"
 
Tantalum said:
Really cool!

How actively do you watch the AoA?

I always thought AoA was mostly for people living on the edge, bush pilots, etc. The Perspective Cirri have them but I never found myself doing too much with the gauge other than looking at it and saying "neat!" .. mind you all of my Cirrus ops are very standard "by the book"
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How actively? Not at all. In a transport category aircraft, it's (like you said) more of a "neat, look at that" than anything else. I'll peek at it on climbout to see if it makes sense, and again on final to make sure that it's pointing in the "approach ban" but other than that, not at all.

There was a cargo plane a few years ago where the Captain got new weights sent to them and inputted them without verifying them with the FO (a no no). He fat-fingered them into the FMS 100,000 pounds lighter than actual. Crew reported that everything felt normal until final, and there was where something felt "off." Like they had to raise their seat more than usual to see the runway over the nose. But everything else in the airplane looked "right." Ended up hitting the tail on landing. The AOA probably would have saved them there. They had it available to them in the HUD, but they weren't really trained to use it.
 
kayoh190 said:
We even have it on our lowly 737s. :p

View attachment 96475
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Lol. 737 is a workhorse! Nothing lowly about that. It does seem that the AOAs in transport planes seem to appear only in HUDs. I don't know why they just don't take some blank real estate on the MFDs and draw a digital AOA gauge.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Lol. 737 is a workhorse! Nothing lowly about that. It does seem that the AOAs in transport planes seem to appear only in HUDs. I don't know why they just don't take some blank real estate on the MFDs and draw a digital AOA gauge.
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We actually have them on our PFDs, but I believe it's an option. There was some question on one of the MAX threads about whether having a HUD made it standard on the PFD as well, but based on what you're saying it doesn't appear to be the case - at least for the 777 and 757.

004E09EC-DE2B-44E2-8455-53866497C871.jpeg
 
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