Way in over my head, don’t be me!

Salty said:
If you don't think learning to hit off a tee helps, then you haven't been a kid, or been around young kids in a long, long while.
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meh. growing up waaaaaaaaay long ago, most kids didn't play t-ball and miraculously we managed to hit the baseball.

I guess kids today need more help than when I was a kid.... which was a long long long time ago, before color TV, when I had to walk to school in the snow up hill, both ways.

now get off my lawn.
 
Bob Noel said:
meh. growing up waaaaaaaaay long ago, most kids didn't play t-ball and miraculously we managed to hit the baseball.

I guess kids today need more help than when I was a kid.... which was a long long long time ago, before color TV, when I had to walk to school in the snow up hill, both ways.

now get off my lawn.
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Nah. A tee lets them start practicing a year or two earlier than they could without one. Even an older kid can get the feel of the swing using the tee before going for a pitch. If they're older, it might take only a couple swings to figure it out, but it'll come quicker than whiffing 20 times before they make contact.
 
Salty said:
Yeah me neither.

I mean, who learns to ride a bicycle before buying a 200 mph sport bike? Who doesn't learn to bat against a 100 mph pitcher? Who doesn't learn to ski on double black diamond slopes? Who doesn't learn to swim in the North Shores surf?

Anything else is a total waste of time.

On the other hand, I taught my roommate in college to drive a stick shift in a 40 foot moving truck. It was actually pretty easy for him since, when empty, the engine had enough torque to handle any stupid crap he did. He did run over a few curbs in the process though. LOL
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I guess having soloed in a T-28A I look at it as a money, syllabus and instructor thing. Got the money? Find the other two. I don't know how flying a C150 would have made a material contribution; waste of time IMO.
 
Shallow pockets said:
the annual maintenance inspection that I didn’t know would be required on a year old airplane was insane, over $14,000
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Mind redacting names/N-numbers, and posting this invoice/W-O?
That sounds like a lot more than an annual inspection and routine servicing.
Typically it is a 'major' finding like a bad jug or some other repair.
Either that or a bunch of problems that weren't detected during the pre-buy.
 
An friend bought a turbine deHavilland Beaver on amphibious floats to get his PPL in. Did it, too, but it sure wasn't cheap. Had to do, IIRC, at least 100 hours (or maybe more) with an instructor on board. Insurance demands.
 
Wow, OP, that sucks. Give me that airplane, I can afford to operate it.
 
$14K for an aircraft that only has 83hrs on it? Either the seller, or the A&P that did your annual took huge advantage of you, no doubt!

If you can stick it out and get your PP-SEL and instrument rating, your costs might go down. But, GA is an expensive activity, and you've started out at the premium level.
 
Baked Potato said:
Wait, what do you mean?
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Simply that the program I went through, was geared to learning to fly in a T-28A. A C150, or any of the usual trainers, would have made no contribution to that program. Way more $$ than anyone I know could have afforded. Way more difficult than a Cirrus I suspect. It's all about the syllabus and the instructor if you have the money to pay for it. BTW it was a strange program that was very unique. The T-28s had been mothballed and then resurrected for the program. I feel very lucky to have participated and meet a neat group of people.
 
ebetancourt said:
I guess having soloed in a T-28A I look at it as a money, syllabus and instructor thing. Got the money? Find the other two. I don't know how flying a C150 would have made a material contribution; waste of time IMO.
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"Airplane designed and built as a trainer made a fine trainer." Seems like you are proving the point which you think you disagree with.
 
A private instructor near me rents out his sr22t for instruction. And I have no idea want a typical cirrus annual goes for.

But I'd suspect an average a&p/ia may smell blood in the water with a low time student with such a craft.
 
I don't think OP is a t
dmspilot said:
That's like buying a Porsche for a 15 year old to learn to drive.
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Is it? A Cirrus is ultimately still a light piston single, and with fixed gear, no prop control, and a super capable avionics and autopilot suite to boot. We're not talking about getting your PPL in a PC-12, King Air, CJ5, or even something like an Extra

Plenty of schools have Cirrus in their fleet and plenty of people train and learn on them

The OP, if this is not a troll post, somehow got in way over his head and was unfortunately taken advantage of. But I'm not sure how you can somehow afford a million dollar plane and then complain about a 14,000 annual. And if it's a turbo there's a good chance the turbo is being mishandled and yes can result in several thousand dollars worth of required work and damage, especially if the shop knows they're dealing with someone who's rich and unknowledged

If we're talking cars.. here's how I see it:
C-172: piece of trash 50-year-old dump truck that will not at all prepare you for flying any real airplane. It's like that first Fisher-Price tricycle 4-year-olds ride. Really doesn't teach you anything about flying that you couldn't learn in a book.

SR-22: an automatic BMW 5 series

The Porsche is your TBM.. or if we want to stay piston than at least a Mooney. Which is harder to fly, more sensitive to speed on final and has retractable gear and propeller

No hate against dump trucks by the way. The Aztec, which I absolutely love flying, is also a dump truck, but at least that plane owns that.
 
Joe_B1 said:
Must be a troll post. 36 replies (half of which are giving good advice) and mr. Pockets has not chimed in. This is like "here is my scenario, now discuss".
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It's been less than 24 hours.
 
Tantalum said:
I don't think OP is a t

Is it? A Cirrus is ultimately still a light piston single, and with fixed gear, no prop control, and a super capable avionics and autopilot suite to boot. We're not talking about getting your PPL in a PC-12, King Air, CJ5, or even something like an Extra

Plenty of schools have Cirrus in their fleet and plenty of people train and learn on them

The OP, if this is not a troll post, somehow got in way over his head and was unfortunately taken advantage of. But I'm not sure how you can somehow afford a million dollar plane and then complain about a 14,000 annual. And if it's a turbo there's a good chance the turbo is being mishandled and yes can result in several thousand dollars worth of required work and damage, especially if the shop knows they're dealing with someone who's rich and unknowledged

If we're talking cars.. here's how I see it:
C-172: piece of trash 50-year-old dump truck that will not at all prepare you for flying any real airplane. It's like that first Fisher-Price tricycle 4-year-olds ride. Really doesn't teach you anything about flying that you couldn't learn in a book.

SR-22: an automatic BMW 5 series

The Porsche is your TBM.. or if we want to stay piston than at least a Mooney. Which is harder to fly, more sensitive to speed on final and has retractable gear and propeller

No hate against dump trucks by the way. The Aztec, which I absolutely love flying, is also a dump truck, but at least that plane owns that.
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The advantage of learning to fly a Cirrus is the avionics and autopilot? lol. You can learn those on a sim if you really need to.

We've had this argument before. I'm not rehashing it.
 
I call bs. Spent a million dollars pre solo for a training plane? Cmon kid.
 
I transitioned to an S22T at 180 hours and found it easy to fly. But to train in? How many times in a day can an instructor say “more right rudder” ;)
 
Tantalum said:
But I'm not sure how you can somehow afford a million dollar plane and then complain about a 14,000 annual.
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The million dollar airplane might be financed over many years. The annual is an immediate out-of-pocket expense.
 
When you’re already paying a house payment sized loan payment, a 14k annual could hurt pretty bad. It’s why most of us don’t buy new aircraft.
 
dmspilot said:
The advantage of learning to fly a Cirrus is the avionics and autopilot? lol. You can learn those on a sim if you really need to.

We've had this argument before. I'm not rehashing it.
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yeah....but bouncing the landings in a Sim isn't the same....o_O
 
dmspilot said:
"Airplane designed and built as a trainer made a fine trainer." Seems like you are proving the point which you think you disagree with.
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You do realize it was designed to emulate early jets with no afterburner? The question is why train in a complex airplane. Flaps, constant speed prop, supercharger, about twice the weight of a Cirrus. Not a spectacular performer on a go-around. Not exactly the kind of trainer being discussed here.
 
Shallow pockets said:
Last year I bought a brand new Turbo Cirrus SR22 to train for my private license in. The appeal to avoid airline hassle and have my own plane was something of interest, so I went and purchased a brand new airplane, with only 83 hours on it. While I have a pretty lucrative job in construction I bit off far more than I can chew. Insurance kills me, the annual maintenance inspection that I didn’t know would be required on a year old airplane was insane, over $14,000. I had no idea this was so expensive and I admit I should have done my homework beforehand. Don’t be me and find yourself upside down in an airplane that you still can’t even fly because instructor availability is hard to keep consistent. I haven’t even soloed yet. So I’ve got this incredibly expensive airplane sitting in a community hangar doing nothing until I can schedule my instructor again. It’s a handful of an airplane for a 27hour pilot student. Don’t be me.
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A recurring myth among aspiring pilots is that they should learn in the same airplane that they eventually want to fly in. Instead, learn to fly in the cheapest and slowest airplane you could get your hands on, like a 172 or a Cherokee. After you get your certificate, move up in small steps. A novice pilot buying a fast airplane significantly increases the risk factors. There are plenty of examples of people who ended their lives way too early only because they could afford to buy fast planes as their first purchase.
 
dmspilot said:
The advantage of learning to fly a Cirrus is the avionics and autopilot? lol. You can learn those on a sim if you really need to.

We've had this argument before. I'm not rehashing it.
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I didn't say there was an advantage, no argument needed, but a hodge podge "steam / but I have a G5 with a 650 coupled to a legacy Century III AP" Bonanza from 1967 where you have to tap the back up gear indicator with your foot is much more airplane to handle, but doesn't illicit the same reaction from people


Side note, for s#!t$ and gigles I had looked at a nearly new SR22T for sale a few years ago. The owner was an 86 hr PPL student who'd yet to pass his checkride, and already had a fail under his belt. Bought a plane to own and figured he'd learn to fly in that.. did a ton of flying with his CFI.. then ultimately it wasn't right for him. So these stories do exist out there. But then you also have people like this guy who buy a Kodiak right out of the gate. A lot of it is about mindset. Does brand 'X' (say Cirrus) attract a different mindset, maybe, but that says more about people and is a deeper topic for another time
 
Half Fast said:
The million dollar airplane might be financed over many years. The annual is an immediate out-of-pocket expense.
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Salty said:
When you’re already paying a house payment sized loan payment, a 14k annual could hurt pretty bad. It’s why most of us don’t buy new aircraft.
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I guess. I can't imagine that kind of loan for a toy..!
 
Not sure if we will ever hear back from @Shallow Pockets - but if we do I have a question: What was your yearly insurance cost and who was providing it? I have heard zero hour SR22 pilots have wicked crazy insurance rates (like well over $10k, per year). Figured our OP should know this as well.

Also, is there any unique about a 1st annual for a SR22 that would make $14K believable?
 
Sinistar said:
Not sure if we will ever hear back from @Shallow Pockets - but if we do I have a question: What was your yearly insurance cost and who was providing it? I have heard zero hour SR22 pilots have wicked crazy insurance rates (like well over $10k, per year). Figured our OP should know this as well.

Also, is there any unique about a 1st annual for a SR22 that would make $14K believable?
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I don't think there is on a 1 year old, but I know they have some calendar limits on things; some recommended, some required. I could see an unsuspecting new owner being taken for that on a 5 year old plane. A 5 year old plane with 80 hours seems plausible. The 10 year chute repack would also get you there, but a 10yo with 80 hours seems less believable, and I wouldn't describe it as "new" either. My money is still on "troll".
 
Jim K said:
I don't think there is on a 1 year old, but I know they have some calendar limits on things; some recommended, some required. I could see an unsuspecting new owner being taken for that on a 5 year old plane. A 5 year old plane with 80 hours seems plausible. The 10 year chute repack would also get you there, but a 10yo with 80 hours seems less believable, and I wouldn't describe it as "new" either. My money is still on "troll".
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Troll, schmoll, if it's an interesting topic, who cares?
 
sarangan said:
Instead, learn to fly in the cheapest and slowest airplane you could get your hands on, like a 172 or a Cherokee.
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Slowest? My Cherokee is my 4th airplane upgrade. Went from Quad City Challenger (70 mph cruise) to Rans S6 (90 mph cruise), to Ercoupe (95 mph cruise) to Cessna 150 (100 mph cruise) to Cherokee (120 mph cruise). That thing is a speed devil to me lol.
 
Salty said:
Yeah me neither.

I mean, who learns to ride a bicycle before buying a 200 mph sport bike? Who doesn't learn to bat against a 100 mph pitcher? Who doesn't learn to ski on double black diamond slopes? Who doesn't learn to swim in the North Shores surf?

Anything else is a total waste of time.

On the other hand, I taught my roommate in college to drive a stick shift in a 40 foot moving truck. It was actually pretty easy for him since, when empty, the engine had enough torque to handle any stupid crap he did. He did run over a few curbs in the process though. LOL
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And who takes a person with 0 hours and teaches them to fly in a jet.

Oh yeah, the USAF has done that. 0 to commercial multi, instrument in a1 year and about 200 - 250 hours.
 
Mil jet training ab initio from zero hours? No we don't, not left-of-sigma people from the entire civilian sample size we don't, which is what the OP belongs to. We attrit most of those who leak through the accessions. The even smaller balance that happen to barely eek through UPT end up (statistically) killing themselves and others in post-training accidents shortly after qualification, unless the squadron leadership is able to bench them to non-flying purgatory and save lives.

Alas, no system is perfect. But we're talking about single digits per year, attrition which of course the US government is perfectly content with. Though certainly not to the satisfaction of the deceased's surviving family, nor those of us who privately predicted the eventual demise but were powerless to it, other than documenting and up-channeling our concern borne out of decades of doing said mil flight training job for a living.

That's why bringing up AETC/CNATRA in discussions about open enrollment civilian flight training is not particularly germane. Not all ab initio is created equal. Our financed millionaire super hero OP would have never been close to getting to a DA-20 flightline in Pueblo CO, let alone a military jet trainer, if military accessions had been his only avenue for flight training access in this life. But since we can't prove a negative, mil flight training is thus a non-sequitur here.
 
Exactly. Big difference between military and civilian flight training. The military is getting college graduates - people who have proven to be intelligent, they study, follow through and have motivation - who then completed officer training, and then selection for flight training.

Civilian flight schools take practically anyone with a credit card.
 
ateamer said:
Civilian flight schools take practically anyone with a credit card.
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Guilty

upload_2022-10-26_18-7-25.png
 
ebetancourt said:
Simply that the program I went through, was geared to learning to fly in a T-28A. A C150, or any of the usual trainers, would have made no contribution to that program. Way more $$ than anyone I know could have afforded. Way more difficult than a Cirrus I suspect. It's all about the syllabus and the instructor if you have the money to pay for it. BTW it was a strange program that was very unique. The T-28s had been mothballed and then resurrected for the program. I feel very lucky to have participated and meet a neat group of people.
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A models? Why would anyone want to fly the A?
 
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