Was I being unreasonable?

Just curious, what did you expect the maintenance manager to do with the information you provided? Predictably, he brought to light the entire problem so it can be dealt with and that's exactly what happened. Like others have mentioned, it's time to get out of this partnership and find new partners that are more mature that you can be honest with...without starting WWIII.
 
deyoung said:
They spent $10k on new radios??
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There was more to it than just one new radio. New Garmin transponder, glide slope antenna, cobbling together one working second radio from the two old, dead ones, etc. But yeah.
 
70 an hour wet sounds questionably cheap.
 
murphey said:
Somewhere, someone in the group has the legal documents regarding the arrangement. How did you enter into the group? What paperwork did you sign, did you receive? You need to get copies of everything including the insurance policy on the airplane.

Based on the legal definition of the group, then you can go to the entire group and broach the issue of how decisions are made, specifically those that required lots of $$$.
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I bought out a friend of mine, who was kind enough to let me pay him off in chunks. I felt very fortunate. There are 3 of us who fly it with any regularity, so its almost like having your own plane. I've known everyone involved for a decade.
 
I didn't want to start a new thread, but I'm curious as to whether there are a good number of pilots that fly without a medical, flight review or a certificate at all? I'm asking because a few years ago someone mentioned to me that many of the pilots in his fly-in community fly without a medical. I thought it was old but then I was thinking that many of them were older. Still not right, but I thought that was why.
 
mryan75 said:
There was more to it than just one new radio. New Garmin transponder, glide slope antenna, cobbling together one working second radio from the two old, dead ones, etc. But yeah.
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Ah, ok. If that includes a whole ADSB upgrade then that makes a lot more sense. Still, yeah, all the partners should be consulted, seems like.

I still think the potential liability issues sound like the biggest immediate worry though.
 
Katamarino said:
70 an hour wet sounds questionably cheap.
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Well we all pay $90 a month dues, so that's $900 a month to cover all the overhead (including the loan for the overhaul, which was done at Penn Yan). We pay for annual out of pocket each year.

I don't mean to give the impression its a fly by night, sketchy operation. We get detailed invoices each month. I know the bills are paid. I think in general our maintenance manager does a good job. While we weren't consulted on some things, I think the decisions were the correct ones. It's just little things. And like someone mentioned, I'm one in a group of ten.
 
mryan75 said:
So the short story is, I have a great deal, but I feel like I'm flying someone else's plane, and/or being granted the privilege of flying my own plane (if that makes any sense). Decisions are made or ignored with no regard for what I think about anything.
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Partnerships are tricky, even when they're good. I was a 1/4 partner in a plane, but everyone referred to it as 'Gary's Plane'. He had purchased it originally and was still a partner. I often felt like I was flying someone else's plane.

There's a well-known 182 at GTU that has 8 partners. One of the original partners took over operating the club. If you got 5 out of 8 people to agree to an upgrade, everyone had to chip in. Then some of the owners started talking and found out main guy was calling them individually and telling them everyone else had voted and wanted something and he needed their 1/8. He told all of them they were the only holdout and pretty soon he had a very nicely equipped plane.
 
Brad Smith said:
Just curious, what did you expect the maintenance manager to do with the information you provided? Predictably, he brought to light the entire problem so it can be dealt with and that's exactly what happened. Like others have mentioned, it's time to get out of this partnership and find new partners that are more mature that you can be honest with...without starting WWIII.
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Given how quickly the other pilot ripped me a new one via text, I'm assuming they were sitting with each other at the airport when I raised my concern. Literally 30 seconds later I got jumped on by the other pilot. So basically the person I mentioned my concerns to turned to his left and said, "Hey, guess what (I) just said about you..."
 
mryan75 said:
pilot-rated mechanic wasn't on our insurance
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My insurance specifically has a clause allowing a pilot rated mechanic to fly the plane as part of maintenance. Are you sure that your insurance does not cover mechanics as well. In that case, the mechanic would be PIC and covered under the policy if he was in the plane
 
Sounds like all 10 partners need to meet and hash out some details. Why isn't someone considered the "secretary" and in charge of keeping all records and in a location that can be accessible by all partners? I would think any type of "organization" would want to keep copies of all partners medicals/certificates for when the feds/insurance companies come knocking.

Shouldn't per hour rate be divided up across multiple reserve columns such as fuel, maintenance etc? I would find it odd that special assessments were taking place for maintenance. Why are they doing upgrades prior to receiving funding from all members/approval? Strange.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Partnerships are tricky, even when they're good. I was a 1/4 partner in a plane, but everyone referred to it as 'Gary's Plane'. He had purchased it originally and was still a partner. I often felt like I was flying someone else's plane.

There's a well-known 182 at GTU that has 8 partners. One of the original partners took over operating the club. If you got 5 out of 8 people to agree to an upgrade, everyone had to chip in. Then some of the owners started talking and found out main guy was calling them individually and telling them everyone else had voted and wanted something and he needed their 1/8. He told all of them they were the only holdout and pretty soon he had a very nicely equipped plane.
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Yeah, this isn't that bad. Nothing downright sketchy going on. But I definitely know the feeling of feeling like it is someone else's plane.
 
mryan75 said:
It is an LLC. There are no formal rules at all (at least that I've seen, and I've asked). We just have an online scheduler. I say we're a "club" and it is "XYZ Flying Club, LLC", but I've never seen any kind of club rules, I've never seen the LLC agreement, the insurance policy. Nothin'.

One thing I've been irritated by over the years is exactly this type of thing: the lack of any rules. For example, nobody was informed about putting in the 650. We were just told that it had been put in, and that the loan for the overhaul had been "reworked" to cover the cost of the 650. Sometimes we get random bills without being consulted, like for new radios (that was at least a grand a head if I remember correctly) and ADSB. no discussion, no "do you guys think we should....". It's done and we get a bill. Granted, I think the upgrades have been great, but nobody was consulted.

Or this flight, I was originally scheduled to go (which is why I wasn't concerned knowing the other pilot was out of medical - I am and am legal). Then out of the blue I get a text that the other pilot was going, not me. I wasn't asked, I was told. Now again, the other pilot is my mentor and I will never be able to repay him everything he's done for me in aviation, but still.

It's kind of a long and winding tale. I consider(ed) these people friends. I was disavowed of that notion this morning.
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Yeah, I know I said they were dicks, but I wouldn't throw in the towel yet. Tell them you want to sit down and clear the air. Then tell them your concerns. If the LLC isn't being run like an LLC, then it really gives you no protection. Sounds like you've just been keeping your mouth shut and letting things slide. You need to give them a chance to respond, the medical thing was probably a shock to them, but tell them you don't want the liability of them flying with out a medical if something happens. Ask them for some solutions. Decide ahead of time if you want out and how badly. I assume you are in it for $15k, if you want out see if they'll buy you out. I wouldn't be a raving lunatic, try to keep it friendly but stand your ground. Good luck.
 
PaulS said:
Yeah, I know I said they were dicks, but I wouldn't throw in the towel yet. Tell them you want to sit down and clear the air. Then tell them your concerns. If the LLC isn't being run like an LLC, then it really gives you no protection. Sounds like you've just been keeping your mouth shut and letting things slide. You need to give them a chance to respond, the medical thing was probably a shock to them, but tell them you don't want the liability of them flying with out a medical if something happens. Ask them for some solutions. Decide ahead of time if you want out and how badly. I assume you are in it for $15k, if you want out see if they'll buy you out. I wouldn't be a raving lunatic, try to keep it friendly but stand your ground. Good luck.
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Thanks, to you and everyone else. Some great advice and insight here. I really do appreciate it.
 
Classic human reaction. When people "get caught", they get ****ed. And as I age, I re-learn the following mantra time and time again... "there is no such thing as "in confidence" outside of marriage"... it is all fair game. People enjoy being the Paul Revere's of a community, it gives them relevance. And now your Paul Revere "got caught" (telling the Pilot)... the cycle repeats. Of course you did the right thing, your thinking was/is sound -- putting the laws aside.
If I were in a club, I would want you in it.
 
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Sorry about the ***, they are automatic... the "****ed" was pixxed, substitute "x" for s...
 
mryan75 said:
It is an LLC. There are no formal rules at all (at least that I've seen, and I've asked). We just have an online scheduler. I say we're a "club" and it is "XYZ Flying Club, LLC", but I've never seen any kind of club rules, I've never seen the LLC agreement, the insurance policy. Nothin'.
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You bought unit(s) of an LLC and didn't read the organizational documents you are now party to?
 
I am confused. You talk about the low rental price and the jump to 125 an hour is a tall leap for you, but then you get a random bill for $1000 and thats ok? Did I miss something? When I rented, I knew my costs. $75 a month dues, $110 an hour, $35 an hour for instructor if needed him. I could budget and know what my monthly would be. Getting a random out of the blue bill for $1000 would have been unacceptable then. Even now actually. But maybe I read things incorrectly.

I would say this is a huge strike 2 in my book. You, correctly or incorrectly, asked a valid question. You are all adults, so no reason to let your emotions interfere with someone asking about a medical.Answer should have been yes. If not yes, then who in the plane is a valid pic. I would ask them to clarify and clear up any misconceptions you have in a matter of fact tone. No reason to attack anyone. Then leave or stay based on how they treat you. If they are this aggressive towards you and this lax towards rules, then leave. If it was a misunderstanding and an honest mistake, then fine.
 
rsleeds said:
You bought unit(s) of an LLC and didn't read the organizational documents you are now party to?
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Yep. I'll be honest, of all the things I've complained about regarding this whole situation, this is inexcusable on my part. I'm generally a pretty diligent guy. Heck I don't even know if my name is on anything to be truthful.
 
MIFlyer said:
is he PIC while sitting in the backseat. AND, would the mechanic, sitting in the backseat, of a plane that just had an accident, spring forward and say "I'M PIC!!! Please violate and sue me, not the guy at the yoke"?
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I don’t see anything in the original post suggesting that the mechanic would be seated in the back seat.
 
First thing is first, I'd want a copy of all club bylaws immediately. In all honesty, you should have never handed over the cash for your share of the partnership/club without a through understanding of all club laws as written. Having said that, I'd just reiterate with them, matter-of-factly, that there is nothing personal about your requesting that everyone acting as PIC of the club aircraft be legal to do so, including medicals. It ensures that the insurance will cover everyone in the event of an accident, nothing more. If they are unwilling to comply with that, you should market your share of the aircraft as you see fit. If they buy you out, great, if you want to sell your share on the open market, so be it. No telling on the method you could use to sell your share since you don't currently know about any restrictions in the club regs.
 
Walboy said:
You really find out about someone you think you know when you serve on a board, partnership etc. with them. Until then it's all pleasantries, when decisions start affecting someone's wallet then you find out interesting things and their true character comes through.
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This person was exceedingly friendly to me. In fact, the conversation with them from a few weeks ago I was talking about earlier was all about me supporting them in a tough spot, telling them to reach out if they need me, them telling me how great I was, etc. etc. Turned on me in the blink of an eye.
 
mondtster said:
I don’t see anything in the original post suggesting that the mechanic would be seated in the back seat.
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It's indeed an assumption, but how far out will you hang your ass on an assumption, especially since the pilots in question deny they even can't fly?

I mean, it's possible that they were going to let him fly all along, but I heard nothing about that. even if he's right seat, once they bend metal is he going to retroactively decide to be PIC? I sure as hell wouldn't
 
Lot of butt-hurt going on for a small group of adult men. Response sounds a lot more peri-menopausal to me
 
mryan75 said:
This person was exceedingly friendly to me. In fact, the conversation with them from a few weeks ago I was talking about earlier was all about me supporting them in a tough spot, telling them to reach out if they need me, them telling me how great I was, etc. etc. Turned on me in the blink of an eye.
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in their defense, this also really hits at the heart of a person to have their "authority", health and independence challenged, so I can see why they might do a quick "snap back" at you on this issue in the heat of the moment.

That said, the totally ungoverned nature of the partnership would be deeply concerning to me. If it was me and my lifelong buddy, to whom the price of the plane isn't enough to end our friendship if things go sideways, then I'd be a lot more relaxed, but with casual friends, I'd want a strong agreement in place regarding insurance, updgrades, etc.
 
Walboy said:
What a classy remark. :frown:
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Poor choice of words. Thanks for calling it out. I apologize.
I think the OP did the right thing. What is surprising was the back stabbing response they got. Just seems very catty response by the rest of the partners to me that’s all.
 
mryan75 said:
It is an LLC. There are no formal rules at all (at least that I've seen, and I've asked). We just have an online scheduler. I say we're a "club" and it is "XYZ Flying Club, LLC", but I've never seen any kind of club rules, I've never seen the LLC agreement, the insurance policy. Nothin'.
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Wow..... just wow....

How do you get your money back.?? That should be in the by-laws. There should be by-laws somewhere.

The Articles of Incorporation naming directors will be found with the Secretary of State.

Also Disillusionment of the Club shall be in the Articles of Incorporation. Important to know.

If there are no rules formally submitted to the club, voted on and approved by a quorum, then ''XYZ Flying Club, LLC'' may be operating outside the LLC, just depends on how it was set up. And it could have been set up naming one member chairman for life letting him make all the decisions for the club.

Sounds to me as if the Club has been operating under the ''good ol' boys'' rules. Which means to me that one ''good ol' boy'' runs everything, and the rest just follow along or get gone.

Hope everything works out in good form for everyone.
 
mryan75 said:
This has left me with a really bad taste in my mouth, among people that I know well and would not presume to react in such a nasty way. One person whom I thought I could trust, I clearly cannot, which stings; and the other person, who I thought of as a friend, had no problem ripping me a new one.

What do you guys think?
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In my world, you have a problem with me, you come to me and we talk about it.. I have a problem with you, you and I are going to have a talk to fix what is wrong... I would say 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time this is the best route....
 
Katamarino said:
70 an hour wet sounds questionably cheap.
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mryan75 said:
Well we all pay $90 a month dues, so that's $900 a month to cover all the overhead (including the loan for the overhaul, which was done at Penn Yan). We pay for annual out of pocket each year.

I don't mean to give the impression its a fly by night, sketchy operation. We get detailed invoices each month. I know the bills are paid. I think in general our maintenance manager does a good job. While we weren't consulted on some things, I think the decisions were the correct ones. It's just little things. And like someone mentioned, I'm one in a group of ten.
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I pay $75 and hour wet and $70 a month for the club I belong to for a nicely equipped 172 with a G430, Lynx 9000 transponder, and an STEC autopilot with altitude hold. And it had a $400 one time fee to join the club. And I drive an hour to get there because it's so cheap. It would be almost double anywhere else.
 
Ugh. As others have said, first discover your level of risk. Get the bylaws, company agreements... In most states you can can for a small fee actually request all this stuff from the state if they filed copies.
Then you can make the determination on risk.
Next, that 1K assessment, and including the annual assessment which is not covered by the 70 bucks is likely to put you over the 125.

I think everyone else likely covered the personal aspects already.

Tim
 
BrianNC said:
I pay $75 and hour wet and $70 a month for the club I belong to for a nicely equipped 172 with a G430, Lynx 9000 transponder, and an STEC autopilot with altitude hold. And it had a $400 one time fee to join the club. And I drive an hour to get there because it's so cheap. It would be almost double anywhere else.
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You and I are literally in the exact same, er, boat. For all my bitching it's a great airplane and dirt cheap. There's another club with a VFR-only 150 that costs more per hour than our plane.
 
mryan75 said:
You and I are literally in the exact same, er, boat. For all my bitching it's a great airplane and dirt cheap. There's another club with a VFR-only 150 that costs more per hour than our plane.
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Except yours sounds like it has 3-4 members and mine has about 40. :D
 
deyoung said:
They spent $10k on new radios??
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He said "a 650". I'm assuming he meant a Garmin GTN 650. Which is a GPS/Nav/Com. Retail is around $11K so if they got it installed for $10K, that sounds like a pretty good deal.

But pretty crappy for a club member to make that call without getting consent from the other 9.
 
mryan75 said:
You and I are literally in the exact same, er, boat. For all my bitching it's a great airplane and dirt cheap. There's another club with a VFR-only 150 that costs more per hour than our plane.
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So what's wrong with buying your own airplane... Then you only have to deal with yourself. I don't get it.
 
pigpenracing said:
So what's wrong with buying your own airplane... Then you only have to deal with yourself. I don't get it.
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Money, at a guess? You can get a tenth share in a pretty decent airplane for the same money that will get you, well, very very little on your own....
 
mryan75 said:
I bought out a friend of mine, who was kind enough to let me pay him off in chunks. I felt very fortunate. There are 3 of us who fly it with any regularity, so its almost like having your own plane. I've known everyone involved for a decade.
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If you haven’t seen any of the paperwork, how do you know if even YOU are on the insurance? Do you know for sure that you really are on the title as one of the owners or that you are officially listed in the club documents as one of the members of the LLC which, I presume, is the registered owner of the plane? It seems very risky to me the whole situation.




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