Want To Purchase an Airplane - Avionics Q (and Maybe More)

beretta

beretta

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beretta
Hey all, let me set the scene for my question. Firstly I am definitely a newbie. I got my PPL last September. I got into GA by accident of purchasing a ground school course and like it all. No one in my immediate surrounding flies for either living or pleasure. I do not mind flying along (my other half does not fly, at least for now siting my experience...). But I do want to purchase a plane. That's where I need your help. My questions are likely off the wall, so please direct me on how to think of all that.

Yes, I have read numerous threads about purchasing vs renting. I still want to purchase. So here is my question - if I want to have G1000/G2000 installed in the old (80s) airplane is that possible? what I mean is would it be possible to have done onto any airplane?

I was thinking in the line of purchasing a plane with g1000 around $250K (say, Diamond) or going for something a bit more powerful (say, Bonanza) and replacing avionics. I am also planning for IFR training.

What say ya?
 
I recommend you consider the g3x instead. The g1000 is pretty old in the tooth and not really easily installable in a legacy plane. The g3x on the other hand is as or more capable and available for a lot of common legacy airframes.
 
If it was me, I would wait to find an aircraft with the avionics I wanted already installed. I would also decide what aircraft I wanted. If you go the route of finding a good aircraft and then have new avionics installed it's going to be a protracted adventure...
 
Hate to "fact bomb" you. But, you can't just throw a G1000 or G2000 into whatsoever airframe you happen to come by. Some silly stuffs about STCs and all that.

So, go buy your Bo and then pour money into it. (IIRC the G500 is approved for bonanzas)
 
beretta said:
if I want to have G1000/G2000 installed in the old (80s) airplane is that possible? what I mean is would it be possible to have done onto any airplane?
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No. G1000 is part of the airframe certification. See post #2 regarding the G3x if you want something equivalent or better.

EDIT: @Ravioli beat me by <1 second, but the G500 mention is also a valid consideration
 
Aha, that's what I wanted to know - thank you all for replies! Makes sense. Now hard choice which route to take, money is not unlimited :)
 
idahoflier said:
If it was me, I would wait to find an aircraft with the avionics I wanted already installed. I would also decide what aircraft I wanted. If you go the route of finding a good aircraft and then have new avionics installed it's going to be a protracted adventure...
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^^^
This, unless money is no object, or you just HAVE to have only the newest toys.

edit: Also, think ahead. Most of my friends that sold an airplane to buy another did so because their first plane wasn't fast enough for them. Just like I sold the 172 to buy a Bonanza.
 
Do you really need a G1000 or glass in general?
 
No, but a G1K especially. There are perfectly great planes with steam that would fit the bill here with a lot less hassle unless....as others have stated....you buy it with the avionics and panel already installed and working.
 
Trogdor said:
No, but a G1K especially. There are perfectly great planes with steam that would fit the bill here with a lot less hassle unless....as others have stated....you buy it with the avionics and panel already installed and working.
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Yes, would like to get away from steam. G1000 is what I am renting now, and I like it.
 
JOhnH said:
^^^
This, unless money is no object, or you just HAVE to have only the newest toys.

edit: Also, think ahead. Most of my friends that sold an airplane to buy another did so because their first plane wasn't fast enough for them. Just like I sold the 172 to buy a Bonanza.
Click to expand...

Yes, thinking ahead, that's why Bonanza is in under consideration, that's why all these questions I have..
 
These are astute replies. The G1000 would be a waste of money for your plan.

The newest G500TXi is the cat's ass.

That said, I always STRONGLY recommend you learn to fly instruments on steam gauges and then transition to glass. It's much more difficult the other way around.

One day your bird will be down and you'll want to make a trip. You'll rent the nice somewhat updated bird from across the airport, and then be behind the airplane the whole way because you've never seen needles as opposed to tapes.

I've seen this happen to countless people in my years as both a pilot and an IA.

Please do keep us posted on what you end up moving forward with. I love to drool over a shiny panel :)
 
Der Fliegermeister said:
These are astute replies. The G1000 would be a waste of money for your plan.

The newest G500TXi is the cat's ass.

That said, I always STRONGLY recommend you learn to fly instruments on steam gauges and then transition to glass. It's much more difficult the other way around.

One day your bird will be down and you'll want to make a trip. You'll rent the nice somewhat updated bird from across the airport, and then be behind the airplane the whole way because you've never seen needles as opposed to tapes.

I've seen this happen to countless people in my years as both a pilot and an IA.

Please do keep us posted on what you end up moving forward with. I love to drool over a shiny panel :)
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I absolutely agree with you, Der Fliegermeister, and other like you, when it comes to steam gages. I started learning with the steam, and then the old bird died month before my check ride. I had to learn glass very fast. So here I am, still flying glass. I do get your point. I am thinking of the older plane with more capacity, and yes, with the steam gages.

With that, are there brands/models I should shy away from? As a general rule, so to speak?
 
beretta said:
With that, are there brands/models I should shy away from? As a general rule, so to speak?
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I assume you are asking this question with respect to avionics and not aircraft manufacturers.

I'll fully admit that I'm a Garmin fan for a lot of reasons.
1. Intuitive user interface
2. Handsome looking hardware
3. Great customer support (flat rate repairs)
4. Resale value
5. THE best installation manuals
6. THE best back shells for connectors
7. The company isn't going anywhere
8. Plays well with other equipment
9. Better engineering from a systems/programming standpoint
10. Better warranty experience

Now, some here may disagree with this next assertion, but please understand that I'm making it from my own set of experiences:

Stay away from Avidyne. In my experience, the sales/product managers don't have enough experience to intelligently understand when I call with an issue that could not be resolved by their troubleshooting section... This should tell you a lot since most troubleshooting sections are rudimentary.

Moreover, their warranty process is atrocious. I once had a customer needing a repair on an Entegra MFD. The L5 bezel key was not working so I couldn't properly configure the unit after installing an NGT9000R in place of the outgoing TRC497 in a Cirrus. Called and explained the issue. She said I needed to call someone else so I did. That person sent me a multi-page deal that felt like filling out a tax form. Essentially, I had to do a job that they should be doing. Sent that back. Didn't hear back for a full week. Called again. Talked to two different people. They said that since the warranty expired the customer would have to renew the warranty ($10,000) and it would be a 60-day turn. Or, $20,000 and a 30-day turn. Those numbers didn't even include the repair itself. After much back and forth the customer renewed the warranty for ten grand. Then we waited 60 days for an RMA. Sent the unit, got it back to weeks later. I don't remember the cost of the repair itself because by this point I needed the airplane done.

.......Intermission......

I reinstalled the MFD and the button was working, but the option specified in the installation manual did not exist in the TAWS page. Additionally, the GPWS was loosing its sh** and would not test. Called them back to ask why so many systems were unhappy. They insisted it was a wiring issue; a response I anticipated. When I explained exactly how it was interfaced and sent them photos of the configurations and pin verifications I essentially got the silent treatment. They didn't know what to do.

So I called Cirrus. They were as helpful as they could be but couldn't quite solve it with me. But they did give me a name of a guy that used to work at Cirrus that now worked for Avidyne. I called him and explained everything. He pointed me in the right direction to solve the problem but the rest I would have to figure out with my trusty supervisor (a very intelligent man). We had to buy a software upgrade. Avidyne never mentioned that. There's even more $$.

When the issue persisted after the software installation, even my supervisor was stumped. But I remembered something I learned before I ever worked on avionics that helped me diagnose a problem with the serial communication. The software upgrade caused a baud rate mismatch between the L3 box and the TAWS feature on the Entegra. This was another issue that the phone answerer at Avidyne just could not comprehend. I needed the baud rate to stay at 38400 not 9600 (might've been the other way around but you get the idea).

Ultimately, I was able to resolve the issue with serial communication.

But wait, there's more! We needed another antenna!...This is the straw that broke the back of a very ornery camel.

See, the rep had been the one that convinced us that this L3 box was the best solution for the customer because it wouldn't require an antenna and made it sound like a plug and play deal. It was not.

The customer was very understanding about the whole thing, but my supervisor and I had a chat over a beer toward the end of the job and both agreed that we couldn't charge this guy more than the cost of the job. It wasn't his fault any of this happened any more than it was ours. So we made no money on him. I just wanted him to have his plane back and working the way we promised it would based on what we were assured by the rep.

We also agreed that neither of us would recommend an Avidyne unit to another customer even though we were a dealer. That's a whole different story too...something about "we don't have you listed as a dealer anymore because you didn't buy enough stuff from us." That game. My supervisor effectively said, "make a product I can sell and not lose money on and that people actually want in their airplane."

Anyway, now that the lines are blown out on that story of frustration, I thank you for allowing me to burden you with it.

I am happy that others have had much better experiences with their products than I had, but I'll never do business with them again.

I should add that I'm no longer working with/as/for an avionics shop so I have no motive to push you toward one brand over another save for the hope that you and your shop can avoid a similar adventure.

If you have any other questions I'd be happy to help you however I can. I don't have all the answers, but I'll do my best for you. And in case the other readers here aren't keen on reading mini novels like this, you're welcome to shoot me a PM anytime.

Hope this helps in some way
 
That is some story, Der Fliegermeister! I was not planning to shy away from Garmin. And I actually had planes in mind, when I mentioned brands/models. So if you or anyone else care to elaborate, please speak up.
 
Back when I was negotiating with my avionics shop regarding my panel upgrade, I was torn between avidyne boxes and Garmin. Avidyne was attractive due to the prices and similar functionally. I got a very similar horror story about avidyne from my tech. Ended up going with Garmin and aside from a few minor glitches, I'm glad I did.
 
beretta said:
That is some story, Der Fliegermeister! I was not planning to shy away from Garmin. And I actually had planes in mind, when I mentioned brands/models. So if you or anyone else care to elaborate, please speak up.
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When considering actual airplanes the key is going to be parts availability, ADs, and whether or not prices are reasonable.

There seems to be rapid inflation on 100 series Cessna right now. I don't expect that to continue much longer and I'll spare you the boring speak of economics and markets. But I do expect that some of the people rushing out and buying an airplane right now are going to wind up upside down when the market corrects.

As many here will suggest: carefully identify your mission and be very honest with yourself. We see all the time folks asking us for suggestions on a "6 seat high performance airplane" but that person will rarely fly with four people, let alone six.

Over the last couple decades, I think the Debonair is a tremendous value but the cat is out of the bag. Occasionally you'll find one that's reasonably priced, but then sometimes the sellers price the airplane for what it could be and not what it actually is.

I can't stress enough how useless paint and interiors are when the engine and prop are junk and the avionics are old Narco crap that aren't even working.

So you have to decide:
Do I find an airplane that is pretty much already what I want?
Do I find one with good avionics and then overhaul the engine and prop?
Do I find one with good engine and prop and then upgrade the avionics?
Do I buy one with fresh paint and interior but end up overhauling the engine and prop... And doing an avionics upgrade?

In every case, the price needs to be right. Figure out what the airplane is worth to you the way you need it, then work backwards to what is being offered for sale and come up with your offer to purchase. Sometimes the seller will be open to your reasoning, or they just didn't quite know what number to ask so they mirrored someone else's number.


If you were thinking of a Diamond or Bonanza anyway, I think a very nice Debonair could be equiped to outpace a 33 Bonanza for the same price. And a Deb will be faster than the Diamond.

260hp models (-N engines) are the obvious sweet spot for performance for the money. But lots of 520 and even 550 Continentals have been STCd to the Deb. If you've just gotta haul ass, go with the big'n.

Speed can be had in a Mooney as well. But make sure you account for the added expense of a chiropractor for you and the PIA fee at the shop. Mooney also can't seem to stay in business for more than a couple years at a time. We've had issues with this on the maintenance side trying to service a brand new Acclaim for a customer. He ended up complaining openly to us that the Chinese money ruined a good company. Take that for what it's worth.

In any case: the prebuy needs to be done by a real professional. Someone that knows the particular airframe you're looking at. And for the love of God, every function of every piece of avionics needs to be checked. I've seen way too many new owners get burned by this. One gentleman brought us a Grumman that was a nice airframe with a pretty fresh engine. But the avionics weren't working worth a damn. Nobody checked them on the prebuy. Ended up running new coax, installing new antennas, a new audio panel, new jacks, a new transponder and antenna, a new nav indicator, a new nav/com and he still didn't have a GPS solution after all that.

Do NOT let FOMO (fear of missing out) induce a bad decision. You should have zero pause deep inside when you find the right bird. Use your resources to make this decision and don't be afraid of offending a seller. Anybody that gets defensive over being asked necessary questions during the purchase process is the type of person you want to avoid...and so is their airplane.
 
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