Want to fly, previous arrest/charge

[Wantstofly]

Good evening Pilots of America!

I have searched the forum but can’t seem to locate a previous thread for my question, so I turn to yall!

I am in the early stages of attempting to start my PPL training. I have been looking at the medical clearance side of things and of course, question 18w is giving me some thought.

Back in late 2010 I was arrested and convicted of “harassment” a petty disorderly offense in the state of NJ. If I need to go into more detail I certainly can, however I’m not sure right now how much of that is pertinent. I went to court and paid my fine off and I went about my life with no hiccups.

I now believe I made a preemptive move that I shouldn’t have, since reading this forum. I started my online medical clearance and marked “yes” to question 18w before I had a medical consultation. I realize I should have done that first.

I am trying to get some info or firsthand knowledge about what to expect. I currently just have a desire to fly privately, but potentially use my G.I. Bill when I retire from the military to pursue a career in commercial aviation. Would something like this prevent me from obtaining a medical clearance and halting my PPL before I really even get started?

Thanks in advance for any info you would be willing to provide.

 

[mcmanigle]

Probably others will be along with more details on how much the actual 18w answer will affect the ability to get a medical and/or get employed in the future. My suspicion is, unless the details (I suspect you would have to write a letter / send in court records that have the details) are particularly uncouth, it won't be an insurmountable hurdle.

But one thing I do want to make sure you know first: Filling out the form online and submitting it doesn't make it official yet. When you actually make an appointment with an AME, they will ask for the number that the MedXPress website gives you when you finish filling out the form. Until the AME types that number into their system, nothing you've written counts yet. So depending on what the more knowledgable people tell you about how big a deal your answer / history are, you still have multiple options:

1. Never see an AME, go learn to fly Sport Pilot, and pretend the online form thing never happened.
2. Go see an AME, but don't give them your super secret receipt number until and unless they say "oh, this is no big deal." Some AMEs won't see you at all until you give them the number; some will see you as a consult only and charge you their full rate a second time for your physical (with the number) after the consult (without the number). All of that is reasonable and fair depending on how you look at it, but you can probably find one who would do the exam first and then take the number and sign you off if able.
3. If everybody on the board says "oh, that's fine, it's no big deal" and you believe them, you can go ahead and see an AME like normal and make it official.

You'll probably see lots of advice on the forum about not being able to "un-ring the bell." The good news for you is, you don't ring the bell by filling out MedXPress online. You ring it by giving the number it spits out at the end to an AME, thereby actually applying for a medical.

 

[Daleandee]

I know nothing ... but if the "harassment" had anything domestic in it i.e. something related to a failed relationship where threats, words, or any physical altercations occurred, I would advise that you tread very carefully. But, if as you say, it's considered a "petty disorderly offense" there may be nothing much to clearing it up.

Hang on and a real answer be come along shortly!

 

[Wantstofly]

You'll probably see lots of advice on the forum about not being able to "un-ring the bell." The good news for you is, you don't ring the bell by filling out MedXPress online. You ring it by giving the number it spits out at the end to an AME, thereby actually applying for a medical.

Thank you so much for your response and your helpful info/advice!

Im glad I haven’t “shot myself in the foot” so to speak, yet. I will surely keep my eyes posted in this thread for future responses in regards to the harassment charge. I will certainly take what you said to do moving forward with finding an AME and trying to do a pre consultation first as well.

thanks again!

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

I am trying to get some info or firsthand knowledge about what to expect.

Google "FAA Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners" that has the guidance AMEs are given for the answers to each question. 18v is predominantly about giving the AME information to evaluate your mental state at a high level. A lot of psychiatric issues will result in a pattern of behavior that plays out with legal entanglements. If there's a drug or alcohol issue they'll also see evidence of this in the court documents and police reports.

Get the court records together, you're probably going to be asked for them. It couldn't hurt to have them on hand for any other non-FAA related issues.

 

[Wantstofly]

Google "FAA Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners" that has the guidance AMEs are given for the answers to each question. 18v is predominantly about giving the AME information to evaluate your mental state at a high level. A lot of psychiatric issues will result in a pattern of behavior that plays out with legal entanglements. If there's a drug or alcohol issue they'll also see evidence of this in the court documents and police reports.

Get the court records together, you're probably going to be asked for them. It couldn't hurt to have them on hand for any other non-FAA related issues.

Thank you! Have looked through and it stated to refer to “part 47” of that manual when someone answers yes. I, unfortunately, could not get a good fuzzy from it. Is it up to the provider to make the determination? Or does it always get deferred to the FAA for review?

 

[Clip4]

In NJ harassment goes on your criminal record and a petty offense can have jail time, but I don’t believe you will have much difficulty getting a medical.

 

[Wantstofly]

For some reason I’m getting emails of replies but the replies are not showing up here.

I believe the offense was jail up to 30 days, and max $500 fine. I never had to serve any jail time. TBH I never should have been in that whole situation but that is neither here nor there unfortunately.

 

[eman1200]

…Back in late 2010 I was arrested and convicted of “harassment” a petty disorderly offense in the state of NJ. If I need to go into more detail I certainly can…..

Hellz yeah! Don’t leave out the gritty details!

 

[Wantstofly]

Hellz yeah! Don’t leave out the gritty details!

well its probably not as eventful as you'd hope but here it goes!

Way back in 2020 a young wantstofly was married. Young and dumb, right? Anyways, we got into a verbal argument, she proceeded to throw a cell phone at my head. I never returned the favor, honestly. She then contacted her mother. The kicker, her mother worked in the same county building where the police were. My now ex-wife, was always one to stretch truths and exaggerate (not exaggerating myself, her parents told me this on one than more occasion.) I was getting ready to head out to my car when she stated "you might not want to go anywhere" I shrug, and brush it off. Well, boom, cops show up, I get arrested, the state charges me and convicts me of Harassment. I never got to explain anything, I was asked if I wanted a lawyer at my first court appearance, I stated yes. Well, being 20 and brand new to the military, there wasn't any money to be had for a lawyer. She then (I believe) started to talk to her parents about what happened. On the second court appearance, with no lawyer, I find that the prosecutor pushes for the harassment charge, and I leave with having to pay a fine, and get scolded/berated in the courtroom about how my attitude is so wrong yada yada. I never got to say anything, not a single word. Lesson learned, find a way to get a lawyer. Her parents then offered to pay for half the costs as they feel they and the cops should have never been involved.

So here I am, over 10 years later, attempting to start a PPL, finding out that this could possibly stop the flight before it takes off.

 

[PaulS]

well its probably not as eventful as you'd hope but here it goes!

Way back in 2020 a young wantstofly was married. Young and dumb, right? Anyways, we got into a verbal argument, she proceeded to throw a cell phone at my head. I never returned the favor, honestly. She then contacted her mother. The kicker, her mother worked in the same county building where the police were. My now ex-wife, was always one to stretch truths and exaggerate (not exaggerating myself, her parents told me this on one than more occasion.) I was getting ready to head out to my car when she stated "you might not want to go anywhere" I shrug, and brush it off. Well, boom, cops show up, I get arrested, the state charges me and convicts me of Harassment. I never got to explain anything, I was asked if I wanted a lawyer at my first court appearance, I stated yes. Well, being 20 and brand new to the military, there wasn't any money to be had for a lawyer. She then (I believe) started to talk to her parents about what happened. On the second court appearance, with no lawyer, I find that the prosecutor pushes for the harassment charge, and I leave with having to pay a fine, and get scolded/berated in the courtroom about how my attitude is so wrong yada yada. I never got to say anything, not a single word. Lesson learned, find a way to get a lawyer. Her parents then offered to pay for half the costs as they feel they and the cops should have never been involved.

So here I am, over 10 years later, attempting to start a PPL, finding out that this could possibly stop the flight before it takes off.

No medical advice from me, other than talk to an AME before you apply.

But, while I feel for your story, you picked her, you got arrested, and it looks like you pled guilty (took a plea bargain? same thing) or you were convicted.

At least for stuff like this, applying for a medical, I'd change my story to, "I was married too young, we got into a non-physical argument( make sure that's true, if the court or arrest records say you hit her, you'll probably have to fess to that), she called the cops, I got arrested, I plea bargained out of it because I had no money and wanted it, and her, to go away. I truly regret to this day that it happened, nothing like it has happened since, nor will anything like it ever happen again. I'm very sorry, I hope it doesn't affect my ability to fly. "

No doctor or the FAA wants to hear how you are innocent, you were convicted.

 

[bbchien]

"That other guy" has got it right. And a psychiatrist known to the FAA will have to be involved, too.....and you are talking some real $$s, here.

Get the court transcripts, too.
It's painful to relive this stuff, for sure.

 

[Daleandee]

No doctor or the FAA wants to hear how you are innocent, you were convicted.

I hope the OP is hearing what you are saying as the details contained in the records are gonna be important. Was there any physical altercation? How much verbal abuse took place? Was a restraining order issued? If she's the one throwing the phone why wasn't she charged? Obviously to be arrested, charged, and convicted there is a bit more to what happened than what the OP has revealed thus far. See below from: https://dhkwlaw.com/domestic-violence/proving-harassment-under-new-jersey-domestic-violence-law/

Under New Jersey law, ” a person commits a petty disorderly persons offense of harassment, if, with purpose to harass another, he” or she:

1. Makes, or causes to be made, a communication or communications anonymously or at extremely inconvenient hours, or in offensively coarse language, or any other manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm;
2. Subjects another to striking, kicking, shoving, or other offensive touching, or threatens to do so; or
3. Engages in any other course of alarming conduct or of repeatedly committed acts with purpose to alarm or seriously annoy such other person.

I learned along time ago that there are two sides (at least) to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in between the two. I have dealt with some difficult people in my life and sometimes I didn't handle it as well as I should have so I'm not pointing any fingers at the OP but just suggesting that he look at this as honestly as possible and follow the advice given by Dr. Bruce.

 

[Wantstofly]

I hope the OP is hearing what you are saying as the details contained in the records are gonna be important. Was there any physical altercation? How much verbal abuse took place? Was a restraining order issued? If she's the one throwing the phone why wasn't she charged? Obviously to be arrested, charged, and convicted there is a bit more to what happened than what the OP has revealed thus far. See below from: https://dhkwlaw.com/domestic-violence/proving-harassment-under-new-jersey-domestic-violence-law/

Under New Jersey law, ” a person commits a petty disorderly persons offense of harassment, if, with purpose to harass another, he” or she:

1. Makes, or causes to be made, a communication or communications anonymously or at extremely inconvenient hours, or in offensively coarse language, or any other manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm;
2. Subjects another to striking, kicking, shoving, or other offensive touching, or threatens to do so; or
3. Engages in any other course of alarming conduct or of repeatedly committed acts with purpose to alarm or seriously annoy such other person.

I learned along time ago that there are two sides (at least) to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in between the two. I have dealt with some difficult people in my life and sometimes I didn't handle it as well as I should have so I'm not pointing any fingers at the OP but just suggesting that he look at this as honestly as possible and follow the advice given by Dr. Bruce.

Thank you for your response! I am trying to get a hold of the court records, but it’s difficult getting anyone to answer a phone this time of year to see about paperwork required.

Your statement about two sides to each story is usually correct, however in this instance, there’s not much more truth to be said about my story.

I guess the aggressiveness from the police from the get go was because they police knew her family as the mother worked in the same building. No questions asked besides do I have anything on me before being arrested. I was humiliated being walked down to a squad car on the busiest street in uniform as I was getting ready for work. Released after a few hours for booking: court date.
Went to the first court date, asked if I wanted a lawyer, said yes, new court date a few weeks later.

Second court date, there proceeded without a lawyer, not given the chance to say one word. The transcripts will show that if I can get a copy of them.

There was no physical altercation with the exception being her phone being thrown at me.


I will proceed with a consultation with an AME, and will see what he advises me to do. Thank you for your time and response!

 

[flyingron]

A simple conviction isn't usually an issue if it doesn't appear to involve drugs or alcohol. However, if you have other things in your medical history (counselling, psych, etc...) the combination may raise red flags in Joklahoma city. As pointed out a consultation would help.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@Wantstofly im not sure how long you’ve been on POA (maybe under a different name).

bbchien is the moderator of the medical forum, a senior AME and expert on difficult medical issuances.

I post this only so, as a possible newbie, you understand that many post in this section specifically for his or a few other AME responses.

He’s “the guy.”